Pullover Shirts

[BellyTank]

Baggers- I did have an inkling about the Bagnold thing- I once commented that our very own Paddy resembles him to a degree.

I think the line between a DAKuniform and an SS one is invisible for many- that was what my 'concern' was over.

I too have an interest in the wide open and perhaps uncharted spaces.
The LRDG and other special forces in the desert and Crete have always charmed me. Having visited Crete many times and read "Ill met by Moonlight" I was interested in following the route over the mountains that was taken by the kidnappers of General Krepe- but I was beaten to it by a better organised crew. I'd still like to do it some day.

If you're interested, we can share/exchange some links regarding pre-war desert exploration images, etc.

If you've seen the image gallery(not Desert but probably up your alley) at this site:

http://www.safarimuseum.com/

...you will have enjoyed many pics of slouch hatted and jodhpured adventurers.

This one, you may or may not have seen:

http://www.fjexpeditions.com/frameset/expeditions.htm

Regarding the English Patient (of which I'm a great defender...)- I don't think it was ever trying to be an honest portrayal of anything (just a desert romance film from a novel)but it used the romantic/enigmatic persona of Almasy as a stating point- some of the other characters were based upon his peers and contemporaries but I'm aware of the deviations from HIS story and the happenings of the time. But as far of era/genre/setting-interest movies- for me it's a classic.

My 'uniform' of choice will be an eclectic assortment of British, Italian and German North African campaign(s') clothing and equipment with liberal amounts of civilian and own designed items. I may have mentioned, I have my eye on an Italian M37 tropical helmet which is sitting in the window of my local travel agents'.... I have a shirt- trousers are under development- I have an assortment of leather jackets and coats and boots- but I would like a pair of the short DAK boots. A hat is also on the cards and I have a cool plan for a classic Slouch/Safari hat.

I quite like the Italian boots at www.civilwarboots.com - much cheaper than the IFG ones from Italy.

I encourage you to share any vendor, etc. links with me that I may not have already discovered...

Bla- bla- we really should chat about all this over a drink or two- you me and MojaveJack... maybe some time... :cheers1:

B
T

 

[Mojave Jack]

Mojave actually lives in a desert. I'm a day's hard drive from the nearest one to me on the U.S./Mexican border. I can't speak for Mojave, but I know I just have a strong interest in vast, open spaces. Mountain or Desert, hot or cool, just give me a far uncluttered horizon to look at and I'm happy.

Wow! I've been out for a while and missed some really great discussion! Sorry. I'm a bit swamped with end of quarter stuff, and haven't been able to get online much.

Baggers, I agree one hundred percent; I love anything wide open and big. My wife thinks I'm crazy because I couldn't read enough about the desert, and now that we live in one, I still can't get enough!

By the way, I think the DAK uniform is great. There are a lot of small-minded people who will judge on something that superficial, but I think the FL crowd is a pretty sophisticated one. That's what keeps me coming back, anyway, hoping it will rub off on me.

BT, I agree we'll have to get together for some cold ones and some discussion! Those sites you posted are great. I know the Johnson's site, but the Libyan Desert exploration page is excellent! Nice summary and some great photos. My friend is working on her doctorate in archaeology at Penn, but has no interest in going on the renewed Libyan digs! Blows my mind! One of the things that is keeping me away for the FL right now is an historiography on environmental geography in the Sahel. Fascinating stuff, but I really want to go there, not just write about it! She has the opportunity, but no interest!

Baggers, we'll have to discuss a rendezvous at the Silent Wings Museum sometime. I have been dying to hit their archives to exapnd my work on gliders in WWII.

 

[BellyTank]

Back to...

Pullover shirts and Bush JAckets-

Here's the Duke of Windsor's Safari Suit- he designed it for his Ugandan Safari in 1925-

You'll note that the suit is crafted from a heavy corduroy and the trousers are like Bombay Bloomers- with button-up legs. The Bush Shirt sleeves are also convertible.

Enjoy!

B
T

 

[Baggers]

Time to resurrect this thread -- British Aertex Tropical Shirt

My apologies for being away longer than promised, but in an attempt to swerve back on topic, here is an example from Jerry Lee at What Price Glory in khaki cellular weave "aertex" fabric that I just received a couple days ago:

First issued in 1938, this pattern of shirt has a four button front placket and 5 inch wide box pleat on the back. It also has an unusual 4 1/2 inch long ventilation slit built into the underside seam of each sleeve at the armpit. The epaulettes on this model are removeable, so it you wanted to "demilitarize" the shirt all you'd have to do is remove the buttons and small straps on the shoulders that hold the epaulette in position.

To get an idea of how the shirt fits, I'll be starting a thread over in the WWII section showing it off with some of the rest of my desert "ensemble." Perhaps we can fire up a discussion of the desert war, weaving in the fact that some of the personalities involved at the beginning were also pioneers in the pre war exploration of the Libyan desert...

I'll also be posting a couple of close shots of my German shirt here (finally!) shortly.

P.S. Bellytank: so that's where they got the idea for the universally reviled Bombay Bloomers (or "sh*t-stoppers," as they were referred to in one account I've read)? Hmmm, it seems in retrospect that he may have been the only person who thought they were a good idea, because the troops to whom they were issued hated them!

Cheers!

 

[BellyTank]

Hi Baggers- nice shirt.

Made by Sanjay for WPG.

Look forward to seeing your pictures.

B
T

 

[Mojave Jack]

Baggers, those epaulettes are different than my WPG aertex. I'm really curious if that's an improved pattern. On mine, the slit in the cuff is placed directly on the seam, and not rotated a few degrees like a normal shirt. It has the effect of putting the buttons on the inisde of my arm, instead of on the outside of my wrist like a normal shirt. That in itself is not a horrible thing, except that it's not where every other shirt has them, so I find myself costantly tugging at them!

I've also found that the material is cut unevenly at the cuff, and the slit at the cuff constantly gaps open. I mean, it hangs open about 4 inches! I've considered taking it in and having a button added halfway up the slit, but I tried using a safety pin to see if that would work, and just ended up with two smaller gaps!

Lastly, the side vents come up so far that any time I lift my arm or arms, they come up out of my pants.

Any idea if any of these flaws were in the original shirts, too? I could see the slit being on the seam as a cost saving measure on the original shirts, but the other two are just poor workmanship in this copy.

I'm really looking forward to you review. I would wear this shirt all the time if not for those problems, hence the need for this thread. If it is a better made shirt I may just go back and gget another. As it stands now, I would never wear this shirt except when wearing full kit.

 

[BellyTank]

The second Desert Fox...

Desert Campaign veteran, Oberleutnant Rheinhold Bakkers, Libya, 1942.

B
T

 

[BellyTank]

Hey- Mojave Jack!

Here are a couple of pics of Osa Johnson that you may not have seen.

Check her jacket out!

B
T

 

[Baggers]

Baggers, those epaulettes are different than my WPG aertex. I'm really curious if that's an improved pattern. On mine, the slit in the cuff is placed directly on the seam, and not rotated a few degrees like a normal shirt. It has the effect of putting the buttons on the inisde of my arm, instead of on the outside of my wrist like a normal shirt. That in itself is not a horrible thing, except that it's not where every other shirt has them, so I find myself costantly tugging at them!

It is. I believe Jerry made the change a couple of years back. The removeable eps seemed to be a feature of the original British shirt. I have two I that purchased from WPG about five years back, those having the more traditional ep that was sewn into the shoulder/sleeve seam, and I think he referred to them as Indian pattern. Here is a comparison of the two, old one at top of frame, new one below:

Whoops I screwed up. This shot doesn't show the ends of the epaulettes. Let me know if I need to do another.

I've also found that the material is cut unevenly at the cuff, and the slit at the cuff constantly gaps open. I mean, it hangs open about 4 inches! I've considered taking it in and having a button added halfway up the slit, but I tried using a safety pin to see if that would work, and just ended up with two smaller gaps!

Interesting that you should note this. All my British repros have had issues with the sleeve plackets gapping open, but I've just dealt with it as being the nature of the beast. The only exception being the WPG khaki wool flannel collarless shirt I bought to wear with his 37 pattern battledress. The sleeves on that shirt were so long I had to have a tailor shorten them by approximately two inches! But even then it still gapped, so as I stated earlier it must just be the nature of the beast. With the aertex shirts, it never seemed a problem as I usually always rolled the sleeves. And as you can see in the photos I've worn the hell out of it. Again, here's a comparison of the two. And both my shirts have the placket running from the seam. Any similarities to yours? Perhaps you bought one from a run in between the two I have?

And here's a look at that underarm vent:

Lastly, the side vents come up so far that any time I lift my arm or arms, they come up out of my pants.

I've never had problems with it pulling out of my waistband. But I'm only 5' 10", how tall are you? I also wear my trousers rather higher than most folks these days (as do a goodly portion of the patrons here at the Lounge, I'd dare say ) And it seems that the tails on this new one are even longer. Note the addition of the gusset:

Any idea if any of these flaws were in the original shirts, too? I could see the slit being on the seam as a cost saving measure on the original shirts, but the other two are just poor workmanship in this copy.

As I stated above, recalling as best I can, all my British repros have had the sleeve placket gap problem to some degree. Whether it's common to the originals or to the repros being from the same source I can't say. Also, all my shirts have had the plackets starting from the underside sleeve seam. I'm willing to believe that it's just a construction "feature" of the originals. It may put the cuff opening at a different angle than what we're used to, but then there are a lot of things about vintage clothing fit and construction that's different from today

I'm really looking forward to you review. I would wear this shirt all the time if not for those problems, hence the need for this thread. If it is a better made shirt I may just go back and gget another. As it stands now, I would never wear this shirt except when wearing full kit.

I don't know. Repro clothing can be a mixed bag at times. Due to the small niche it caters to, the vendors can't do the R&D work to get a perfect sample the way the big clothing manufacturers can. Couple that with walking the fit tightrope, trying to balance authenticity with modern body shapes, and I see that it can be very frustrating for customers and vendors alike. In the end, we all have to compromise a bit and make the best of it unless we want to go the custom tailoring route and the added expense involved.

Frankly, I think this new version is better than the one from five years back. Different cut, more details, and a better fit -- for me at least. I have two of the earlier ones and have worn them constantly during the summers here. I think I'll be getting another soon so I can retire the old ones.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Cheers!

 

[Baggers]

Desert Campaign veteran, Oberleutnant Rheinhold Bakkers, Libya, 1942.

B
T

BT, you are a very sick individual...but I like that in a person! :eusa_clap

If I had known you were going to be doing this I would have spent a little time and effort with the "art design" of the original shots. Say, rolled my sleeves, added a Sam Browne and a swagger stick to the Brigadier and struck a pose that didn't have me slouching with my hands in my pockets. The Oberleutnant (actually, I'm wearing Panzer Grenadier Hauptmann's boards, but who could tell in that massively overexposed shot?) would have just been reshot totally.

Still, great fun. Perhaps we should try inserting me into a group shot of one of the Zerzura expeditions from the thirties? All my pictures are rather small print images in books, might you have anything a bit larger and with better detail?

The possibilities are endless...

Cheers!

 

[Mojave Jack]

BT, great shots of Osa! What style. And what a lion she bagged! I hadn't seen those photos before, thanks.

Baggers, I think my WPG shirt must be from the same lot as your original. The tags, cuffs, everyhting is identical. I think the problem with the side vent is just as you say, and I am having the problem because I am wearing it most often with modern pants. I tried on my KD shorts, and with that high waist the side vent doens't come anywhere near the top of the shorts. I am 6', so combined with the lower waist on my everyday pants is just enough.

You're probably right on the issue of the gapping, as well. I suppose it could be an issue of it being on the seam, too, since that makes that part of the sleeve a litle bit stiffer. Thus the sides would be more prone to spreading out since the seam won't flx as much as the rest of the sleeve.

How does that underarm vent work out? By the way, have you gotten a pair of the full hose for KD/Jungle Green that Jerry is currently offering? I think those were the same for the desert or the jungle, weren't they? That's one of the bits I am missing. Well, actually, I need a Lee-Enfield, too, but that's a ways off!

 

[Baggers]

Baggers, I think my WPG shirt must be from the same lot as your original. The tags, cuffs, everyhting is identical. I think the problem with the side vent is just as you say, and I am having the problem because I am wearing it most often with modern pants. I tried on my KD shorts, and with that high waist the side vent doens't come anywhere near the top of the shorts. I am 6', so combined with the lower waist on my everyday pants is just enough.

I kinda thought so. That's why I posted the pictures, to hopefully find out which production run you had. My being two inches shorter is probably why I've never noticed a problem with any of my aertex shirts when mixed with modern clothing.

You're probably right on the issue of the gapping, as well. I suppose it could be an issue of it being on the seam, too, since that makes that part of the sleeve a litle bit stiffer. Thus the sides would be more prone to spreading out since the seam won't flx as much as the rest of the sleeve.

No easy answer here. Just from trying to study period photographs it appears that it was a standard feature for all other ranks issued clothing. Now something I haven't mentioned until now is that officers did wear better quality uniforms. After all, just like their American brothers in arms, they were required to provide their own and thus had an assortment of tailors and haberdashers working from approved patterns to whom they could give their custom.

How does that underarm vent work out? By the way, have you gotten a pair of the full hose for KD/Jungle Green that Jerry is currently offering? I think those were the same for the desert or the jungle, weren't they? That's one of the bits I am missing. Well, actually, I need a Lee-Enfield, too, but that's a ways off!

Concerning the vent, beats me. It hasn't been warm enough yet for me to wear it outside, let alone work up a sweat! Ask me again when you see that the daily highs for DFW have been topping 90 degrees for a week or so. And as for the full hose, you need to read my first post in that thread I started about tropical uniforms. I'm wearing a pair in the picture! lol

Cheers!

 

[Matt Deckard]

Next time i get dress shirts made they will be custom pullovers.

My friend Jake who reenacts pulls over his regular dress shirts now out of habit. Only a few top buttons are ever undone. The rest never get undone.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Back in the '60s, one of the last members of the Brooks family to be involved with "Brooks Brothers" complained bitterly when the company ceased to sell pullover button-down shirts. He actually said, "These new shirts make me feel like my pecker's hanging out."

 

[Matt Deckard]

They now make pull over night shirts... some with white banded collars.

 

[de Stokesay]

Ok, I know this thread is ancient but I am interested in one of those WPG airtex pullover shirts mentioned above. Would any of you who have them be able to measure the sleeve-length for me? I would likely need a size 44 chest but if anyone has a size 42 the sleeves would likely be a similar length. Either shoulder to cuff or center of collar (centre-back) to cuff measurements would work for me.

Thank you,

de Stokesay

 

[Baggers]

Top of shoulder seam to end of cuff is 23 inches on a size 42. The sleeves have always seemed a bit short for me but still very wearable. I wear a 16x34 dress shirt, and have long been accustomed to an extra inch, but it's never been a big issue since I wear the WPGs only in warm weather with the sleeves rolled 95 percent of the time. I've thought about trying one in a size 44, but I like the way the 42 fits everywhere else, particularly the body length, shoulders, and collar, and afraid the larger size would have been too baggy looking.

 

[de Stokesay]

Thank you for your very prompt response Baggers, I appreciate it.

Unfortunately, this is rather what I had feared. I would likely need a 44" shirt and from the shoulder-seam to end of cuff I require 27" so 23" would definately be a problem. On the up side, the sleeves might look rolled up already without my having to do any actual rolling. :eusa_doh: Damned monkey arms!

The reason I asked is that my wife and I are planning a trip to Egypt sometime in the next few months and I like the idea of these shirts. On a shirt for traveling, I like the large double pockets that don't seem to be made anymore. Modern shirts always seem to have pockets that are so small as to be useless for putting anything in, as well as looking vestigial. I have also always liked the look of epaulettes on more casual shirts. I had thought that these Airtex shirts would work but apparently not. As we'll be spending some time in the desert I would like sleeves I can roll down at night when the temps drop.

I guess I can always just go with a couple of regular dress shirts, but as stated above there are certain features I really like for traveling.

Thanks again for the info Baggers.

de Stokesay

 

[Mojave Jack]

I'm still having no luck finding a good pullover that fits my own chimpanzee like physique. I won an Orvis shirt on eBay that really fit the bill. Pullover with a tab collar, two chest pockets (open topped but closed with a button), in a mid-weight khaki twill. And of course the sleeves were too short. I thought about having it cut down t a short sleeve and taken in, but the seams fell way too far off my shoulder, so Nick Charles has benefitted again! I just shipped it off to him, and it fits him much better.

de Stokesay, you might consider the LL Beam Cotton Poplin Field Shirt for your travels. I wear one to the field quite regularly, and it is great in hot weather.

http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/45888?feat=507932-GN1&page=men-s-cotton-poplin-field-shirt&productId=784697

I have to get them taken in at the waist, but they look great right out of the dryer, wear well, and the pockets are actually useful.

Another suggestion, depending on how much you have to spend, is the Orvis Linen Bush Shirt. I've tried their twill bush shirt in a tall, and the sleeves didn't quite cut it, but I think the linen is better. Might be tough getting it presentable in a Cairo hotel sink or on the banks of the Nile, but it'll certainly work with the heat!

 

[de Stokesay]

Thanks Mojave, that's great advice. I always have to take recommendations with a grain of salt as few people have my build. I know you have the same arm problem I do though so I will definitely take these suggestions into consideration. I like the fact that both these options are natural fibres. I don't wear synthetics for a number of reasons.

de Stokesay