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[fedoralover]

So are you saying if you buy a new felt hat and you just let it set in a warm room for a few months or longer it will hold up better with less taper when you do finally wear it out in the elements or is there more to it than that?

fedoralover

 

[jamespowers]

I hope I didn't imply that.
If you have a finished hat and it has not been aged then it is too late already. The aging takes place before the hat is trimed out. As Borsalino implies, during the felting process and then as a completely felted body. The felt has no where to move after it has been felted tightly together so that eliminates some of the tendency to taper. I am sure there is more than that---especially how they "age" the bodies---but you know as well as I do how dense that Borsalino felt is even though it is thin. There just is no more room for the felting process to keep taking place. So you get a dense felt that is water tight. Then they likely treat it with some type of water proofing that makes it even more water proof. Leave it to the craftsmen of old to be redundant with their craft.
There really doesn't appear to be a secret. The felt you start with is what determines what you get in the finished hat. Cheap thin felt that has not been aged will taper. You just can't get away from it. The felt just has too much room to move around within itself. Then you throw in what a poor production method might add like stretching the hat too much and you have a recipe for failure in water repellency and taper.
Just some of my thoughts that I have been researching for a few years now. Some day I might know enough to patent something.

Regards to all,

J

 

[SHARPETOYS]

So the hatter needs to pre block the hat body and then put it away for a few years then make the hat ? Right. I see a whole new hat market now!

 

[SHARPETOYS]

Just found this.

Begins the process by buying the finest fur available (mostly rabbit, but occasionally nutria, hare and beaver). The secret is to use the fur from only the plushest part of the animal. Often this means buying fur from countries with colder climates where the hairs are naturally longer; this is important, because when felt is formed, the longer and stronger hairs form a natur-ally stronger felt. This fur is then stored for up to two years in a humid environment.

More

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,556,00.html

 

[jamespowers]

Begins the process by buying the finest fur available (mostly rabbit, but occasionally nutria, hare and beaver). The secret is to use the fur from only the plushest part of the animal. Often this means buying fur from countries with colder climates where the hairs are naturally longer; this is important, because when felt is formed, the longer and stronger hairs form a natur-ally stronger felt. This fur is then stored for up to two years in a humid environment.

More

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Archives/CA_Show_Article/0,2322,556,00.html

Cervo does a good job of making the felt that is true but they just don't have that vintage feel. For some reason they seem to find the need to use too much stiffener. Nothing like a cowboy hat but it is much stiffere than a vintage Borsalino. Shaping them is not as easy as he relates either. You have to use steam---not simply by hand.
The processes they use are quite right. The fur is aged and then the felt is dried and cured after dyeing. They are indeed water proff and do not taper much if any at all in my experience.
The specific requirements for fur are what I have been saying all along. Another what you start with is what you end up with. Fur of any type, from any animal has grades. Fur from an animal that is domestically raised is far inferior to a wild fur. Using beaver as an example, those living in the coldest climates produce the best and thickest fur. Then you have to grade the fur dependign on where you get it from the pelt. As mentioned above, the plushest parts yield the best fur. For the beaver that is usually the belly fur. The fur from the sides are plush but a little less. The back fur is all but unuseable due to the beavers habitat. This is the area that the beaver bumps every time he pushes into his dry home from the water. The hair is far from plush. It is coarse. The Nutria does not live in this same den so its back hair is of better quality.
In short, a Beaver hat made from the back hair of a beaver would be far inferior to that of the hat made specifically from belly fur. The fur felts together better and is less coarse.

Regards to all,

J

 

[jamespowers]

So the hatter needs to pre block the hat body and then put it away for a few years then make the hat ? Right. I see a whole new hat market now!

No, I hope I didn't imply that either. The body is ready to be blocked after it has been properly aged. I am not sure if preblocking is needed or was used in our vintage hats. They sure didn't leave it on the block for a few years. The market for that kind of hat would likely break the hatter.
The felting process continues as long as there is space between the fur felt, water lubricating the process, heat or cold and motion imparted to the felt. This has to be done slowly or you get what felters refer to as a "push." It is an area in the felt that felts together faster that the surrounding area and leaves a lump in the body. Not a good thing. All of this takes time and it could well take years to get the felt to come to a complete rest---where there is no more room to felt the fur and produce an even surface over the entire body. On the block, I doubt it would make any more difference beyond that point.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Fedora]

Well, I must say that if the Portugal beaver felt was any denser, one would have to use a small drill to drill the holes for the needle to pass through when you sew in the sweat and ribbon.

Some of this makes very good sense to me, but I think some of the methods used may be long dead and gone. To my knowledge no factory ages felt anymore. I am surprised that none of the ageing techniques were ever mentioned in the hatters books that I have read. Perhaps this was not used on American hats, even back in the old days? I know they mentioned the fur being stored until ready for use, but the ageing was not mentioned. And certainly it was not mentioned during the felting process.

If a hat were preblocked, and then sit in a heated room to age, would the felt not shrink, while off the block, in a warm, humid room? If it were left on the wood block, gosh, that would take several hundred thousand blocks to be tied up on the ageing process. Just thinking out loud here.

To me I can see how if the bodies were partly felted and then aged before you completed the felting, this might change the end results, but, if a felted body is aged after the felting process, how would that be different than just ageing a finished hat, either by wear or , by sitting in the closet? That is the part that I do not understand. Ageing the partially felted hat during the felting process is one thing, but afterwards there does not seem to be any difference, especially if you followed it by a reblock. Am I missing something here?

Perhaps only Borsalino used this process? The more effiecient Americans had no time for it, even back then? Someone needs to call or write Mrs. Henderson!! She totally missed this when she talked to those old retired American hatters, and they never mentioned it either. Enquiring mins want to know!! :cheers1: Fedora

 

[Fedora]

The felting process continues as long as there is space between the fur felt, water lubricating the process, heat or cold and motion imparted to the felt. This has to be done slowly or you get what felters refer to as a "push." It is an area in the felt that felts together faster that the surrounding area and leaves a lump in the body

Ah, now that I do have some info on. On the felting machines used to felt the cones, if you ran it through too fast you got the "push" and these hats were culled. Each type of underfur, or a blend of underfur has a natural speed at which the felting takes place. If you try to felt too fast, you get the lumps. Knowing how fast any particular run of felt would felt, was the key, and I am sure this came from experience. So, you wanted to not exceed the natural felting speed when using the felting machines.

I still do not understand. If a hat starts out as a felted cone, and even if you aged that cone, by whatever means, and then you stretched that felted cone into the shape of a square block shape, it is still stretched on the top. What would cause the felt not to try and felt back to its original "felted shape"? What would stop the fur from trying to do what is natural for it? Even if you had the cone on a block, and it dried to the block shape, it is still not felted completely, at the areas that are stretched out.(the block will not allow it to happen) Does the ageing, sort of kill the felting action, so the felt no longer pulls itself together? Fedora

 

[jamespowers]

As mentioned previously, you would probably have to age the hat after dyeing as well because the body gets wet and likely felts some more due to the heat, water and motion applied. If you dye it twice to get good coverage then that would take even longer. I am sure they would want to lock the color in and make sure it would not run or fade---unlike hats made by Stetson today.
I agree that it doesn't make much sense to age the felt bodies on blocks after it has aged through the felting and dyeing processes. By the time the body has gone through all of that stress there is not much more felting that can take place. Blocking was a finishing operation and likely not an aging one.
Another thing that comes to mind is that the body goes through all these processes and comes out tough as nails. The weak bodies probably never made it out of the factory because they would have fallen apart right there.
I am pretty sure that the American hatters did the same thing because their hats from the same period of time performed nearly as well (or equally as well depending on the grade of hat) as the European brands. It is likely that the people in the factories did not remember the process because the felter supplied the factory with finished and aged bodies. There were manufacturers that did their own felting and dyeing though. Mallory was one of those. Find some old Mallory felters and maybe they could tell us the tale.
How do you get in touch with Ms. Henderson? I would like to ask some of those questions.
Have you asked the Portuguese felters if they age the fur and bodies? They seem to be producing a decent body with dense felt---vintage feeling as well. Time will tell if it tapers though. You would think that after all these years they might figure some way to speed up the process but then there are producers like Cervo that still do it the old and slow way.
This is an interesting topic on its own. Maybe we need a new thread?

Regards to all,

J

 

[rick5150]

I still do not understand. If a hat starts out as a felted cone, and even if you aged that cone, by whatever means, and then you stretched that felted cone into the shape of a square block shape, it is still stretched on the top. What would cause the felt not to try and felt back to its original "felted shape"? What would stop the fur from trying to do what is natural for it? Even if you had the cone on a block, and it dried to the block shape, it is still not felted completely, at the areas that are stretched out.(the block will not allow it to happen) Does the ageing, sort of kill the felting action, so the felt no longer pulls itself together? Fedora

Steve, I know you are sick of hearing this from me but I want to throw it out here on this forum and see what happens.

First, the "felting process" can no longer occur once the felt is removed from machine as there are aspects to the process that are no longer present. Steam, pressure, tension mositure etc. It is impossible.

Second, any shrinkage that occurs is directly related to moisture content. More accurately - removal of that moisture content. Not specifically water, but the natural oils in the felt that keep the individual hairs pliable. That is why when you add heat the felt tapers. Wet the hat and then dry it and you are washing natural oils from the hat and it tapers as well.

Finally, the older hats have less issue with taper because the natural oils have been long-since removed. Once this has occurred completely, reblock the hat. The difference this time is that if that hat no longer contains that moisture you are not stretching the individual fibers, so it is iimpossible for them to revert back to the cone shape.

Instead, by pulling an aged hat over a block, you are creating tiny, microscopic tears in the fibers. Not big ones that compromise the felt strength, but hundreds of small ones that give the felt the appearance of having been stretched. Since they are torn, they can not untear, so little to no shrinkage/taper can occur.

Maybe a powerful microscope and a sharp eye can confirm this?

 

[mthatter]

Mr. Powers

erased by mt

 

[jamespowers]

I still do not understand. If a hat starts out as a felted cone, and even if you aged that cone, by whatever means, and then you stretched that felted cone into the shape of a square block shape, it is still stretched on the top. What would cause the felt not to try and felt back to its original "felted shape"? What would stop the fur from trying to do what is natural for it? Even if you had the cone on a block, and it dried to the block shape, it is still not felted completely, at the areas that are stretched out.(the block will not allow it to happen) Does the ageing, sort of kill the felting action, so the felt no longer pulls itself together? Fedora

It is probably more difficult to explain and on a molecular level I have no idea. My guess is that the felt has stopped felting and the process has been halted in an aged felt. I think most of what you get in many felts that allows for the relaxation of the felt for blocking is due to the stiffener. You steam or wet the felt before you put it on the block and the felt relaxes a bit. It allows you to shape it. As it cools it snaps tight to its block and stays that shape. If you were to pull it off the block soon after you blocked it then it would likely resort back to its cone shape. In practice the felt stays on the block until it dries and that sets the felt shape.
Even in hats without stiffener, they will relax when you steam them. It might be a little harder to get them over the block but they will conform with pressure. I suppose it is like putting a 7 UP in the freezer. It expands enough to break the bottle but it fit in it once. In other words, it can expand but it cannot get smaller.

Regards to all,

J

 

[besdor]

And I thought I knew a lot about hats! There are some very knowlegable people out there . I wish more people(customers) appriciated custom made hats . We could sell plenty of bettter hats , but the average joe out there would never pay 350.00 for hat . Most people complain when we ask 125.00 for a Stetson . If they only knew what they were getting .:cool2:

 

[jamespowers]

Most people complain when we ask 125.00 for a Stetson . If they only knew what they were getting .:cool2:

A modern Stetson? They are like a collander in the rain with color runoff. PU When will the public get a clue of the junk they buy off the rack? I suppose grandpa is gone so he can't tell them that their hat looks like junk next to what he was used to. Mine wore a hat of one kind or another every single day of his life. Too bad he was a 7 3/8.[huh]

Regards to all,

J

 

[Fedora]

Even in hats without stiffener, they will relax when you steam them. It might be a little harder to get them over the block but they will conform with pressure. I suppose it is like putting a 7 UP in the freezer. It expands enough to break the bottle but it fit in it once. In other words, it can expand but it cannot get

You know, I have seen vintage bodies that once wet, and hot, would literally stretch out like a rubber band!! The amount of stretch was amazing. I have seen other vintage bodies that once hot, and wet, would stretch very little. I have no clue as to why, but just assumed the body that resisted stretching was a denser felt. I guess the major question is this. When a completely felted body is stretched out, are you "unfelting" it, or is it just fiber stretch? If you are actually unfelting it due to the water and the heat, it of course has to felt back together, at least somewhat, from the drying action. But, if the completely felted body is just being stretched, then the shrinkage is taking place in the individual fiber itself. Now, does an aged fiber not react the same, to shrinking back up to its natural length, more than a new or live fiber? I have always felt, just through common sense, that a dead fur fiber would not react to the elements, that is heat, moisture, the same way a live fiber would. And, that is why I have always maintained the vintage hats were taper resistant due to the age of the felt itself. That is, the felt was dead. I am not convinced as yet that this is not the case, and what we have been talking about here is enforcing what I always held to be a fact.

Rick, you reasoning is just a valid to me as what has been talked about so far. Perhaps the almost microscopic tears are a factor as well, but we still have the fact that vintage hats sure are taper resistant, while all modern hats seem to suffer the taper syndrome. I have yet to see a modern dress with a straight block that will not taper fairly fast when compared to the vintage hats. I am currently wearing a 7x vintage Stetson fedora that came with a great Indy block from the factory. It has yet to show one smidgen of taper, and it has been wet, and I mean wet, many times and always dried at room temp. Zero taper. I have another vintage Stetson, an Imperial, from the old HJ shop and it has seen the same treatment and has just a tiny bit of taper, but almost imperceptable. Since almost every dry cleaner has a hat cleaning and reblock service along with many small refurbising shops that dotted the landscape back in the day, those new hats surely had to taper too, back then. This just makes me think that the age of these vintage hats has something to do with the taper issue. I dunno. Fedora

 

[jamespowers]

You know, I have seen vintage bodies that once wet, and hot, would literally stretch out like a rubber band!! The amount of stretch was amazing. I have seen other vintage bodies that once hot, and wet, would stretch very little. I have no clue as to why, but just assumed the body that resisted stretching was a denser felt. I guess the major question is this. When a completely felted body is stretched out, are you "unfelting" it, or is it just fiber stretch? If you are actually unfelting it due to the water and the heat, it of course has to felt back together, at least somewhat, from the drying action. But, if the completely felted body is just being stretched, then the shrinkage is taking place in the individual fiber itself. Now, does an aged fiber not react the same, to shrinking back up to its natural length, more than a new or live fiber? I have always felt, just through common sense, that a dead fur fiber would not react to the elements, that is heat, moisture, the same way a live fiber would. And, that is why I have always maintained the vintage hats were taper resistant due to the age of the felt itself. That is, the felt was dead. I am not convinced as yet that this is not the case, and what we have been talking about here is enforcing what I always held to be a fact.

Agreed at least partially. The difference is that I believe the aging of the felt bodies that was done at the factory contributed greatly to the taper resistance of the felt into the following years. I think what you are saying is sort of the opposite. The following years contributed greatly to the taper resistance of the felt not necessarily the factory aging. That sound about right ? In either case we agree that aging the felt has something to do with it; whether it was dozens of years or a few years at the factory. I can live with that until we can get a better answer to that question. Then we can make better hats for the good of all of us "hat misers."

Since almost every dry cleaner has a hat cleaning and reblock service along with many small refurbising shops that dotted the landscape back in the day, those new hats surely had to taper too, back then. This just makes me think that the age of these vintage hats has something to do with the taper issue. I dunno. Fedora

There certainly was no shortage of hat cleaning services and blocking services available to people back in the day. However, I think the reason might have been more than taper. Back then the average person surely was not like me with 100 hats to choose from. They probably had more like four at most if they were upper working class. It was likely an everyday brown and gray hat and brown and gray dress hats. The everyday hats got tons of useage every single day. Clearly they got dirty, smashed and maybe even flew off into places where it should not have been. They needed maintenance if they were to look decent all year long. The man with less hats had to deal with more dirt and beating. This is not to even mention women's hats that they wore everyday as well. There was clearly a need for hat maintenance unrelated to taper. Figure at least one person was needed in every major city to service 1000s of people's hats at least once a year. Then figure what a new hat cost compared simply cleaning the old one. It was not a throw away society like we have today. People made do with what they had until they were forced to buy new. Geez, I am sure I am not the only one that wished there was such a service in every town today.
Very interesting this thread. Makes me think. :cheers1:

Regards to all,

J

 

[besdor]

Wow ! ,this realy got technical . Basicaly , hats made years ago (pre 1960) were made using a better grade of felt. Also ,most hats were made by hand or using less automation that today. The most important factor is the amount of chemicals used back then too. It was much less than today . So much stiffener is used today to keep the shape of the hat good because the type of fur now used stinks . Back in the old days, even the grade of rabbit was better and processsed in a better way using lesss chemicals .
You guys are spoiled when you buy these vintage hats on Ebay . Can you imagine if the average customer came in with a "Stetson 40" that they bought online and wanted another just like it . It could never happen. :cool2:

 

[fedoralover]

Thats why I decided not to sell my Stetson 100 and my other vintage hats.

fedoralover