Panama hats ratings: my opinion

[warbird]

Clay, I understand basically that you are trying to put a "rating" or somehow quantify what makes the good/perfect hat but from the perspective of this side of things, it cannot be done beyond the obvious ie: weave count. Color, even with a pantone chart is STILL subject to each eye and is NOT as clear as you seem to believe. Evenness of the weave means alot when it comes to musuem or highly rated hats, but to who's eye is it uneven?

What this feels like is a setup for failure, period.

Beauty, evenness, color consistency, virtually everything can be argued when talking panama's and most of it is in the eye of either the "complaintant" or the "vendor", each seeing different things. These are not machine made items Clay, they are hand woven by human hands, hand bleached, hand blocked, hand finished. Of course each hat is going to vary and each vendor is going to place a value on each hat as he or she believe to be fair to all. To set up an artificial "scale" of some sort only gives the lawyers in us argument points. Panama's, from the lowest weave count to the highest are pieces of art to be enjoyed and worn with pride, not to argue about .
This is why Robert, myself, and any other hatter or vendor will probably balk at this thread. Artwork cannot and should not be minimized to a widget chart.

Well said Art. The very idea of grading art by a numbering system. It really is simple, you go by your trust and respect for who you buy hats from. It's reputation for the business or the hatmaker. I have found they will send pics and tell you this is what I have or what this person's work looks like. Especially in panamas the deviation from one hat to another in so many ways would make a standard nearly impossible.

I see no need for this type of system.

 

[HungaryTom]

Tom, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to ignore your thoughts but even photographs will not satisfy many people that insist on perceived perfection. What this amounts to is applying "quality control" principles to an art that does not apply. The marketplace is the best quality control in this matter. If enough people are unsatisfied with a companies product or price, they will stop buying, removing the offender from business. Mission accomplished, without specifics.

Art,

Sotheby's, Christy's make photographs of their unique and beautiful items in their catalogs.

The same thing is done with modeling agencies as I said before.
Beautiful ladies and Fine Arts aren’t quantified and measurable but they are displayed and sold all the time.

Its a long time since Daguerre, photography is not that expensive any more. Hosting digital photos as contents should be also not that expensive. Lets say ten hats in each price class.

With panama hats it is really the same thing: BEAUTY that catches the EYE and then makes the BRAIN to accept to PAY.
One must first COVET the product and that goes only through visual display. Panama hats can not be tasted, listened to.

It is true that there will be always people who will not buy from Panama hatter X but from Y or Z. There will be others, who say it is not perfect to offend or try to bargain etc. But there will be many-many customers who will buy because they have historic examples to look at which are BEAUTIFUL.

Panama hats like any other products are ultimately graded/quantified/measured by their SALES PRICE decided by their respective seller. If the guy likes that price/value ratio he buys and becomes a king/customer, if not the commoners are free to move.

And finally, it might be comfortable for the seller if the customers/kings display the ready hats but it is really the sellers homework to keep a comprehensive catalog of the own products to be displayed anytime.

Statements ’I have now some very fine hats, I’ll put some photos if I can’ will never have the power of real pictures.

 

[cookie]

11th Commandment

Art,

Sotheby's, Christy's make photographs of their unique and beautiful items in their catalogs.

The same thing is done with modeling agencies as I said before.
Beautiful ladies and Fine Arts aren’t quantified and measurable but they are displayed and sold all the time.

Its a long time since Daguerre, photography is not that expensive any more. Hosting digital photos as contents should be also not that expensive.

With your panama hats it is really the same thing: BEAUTY that catches the EYE and then makes the BRAIN to accept to PAY.
One must first COVET the product and that goes only through visual display. Panama hats can not be tasted, listened to.

It is true that there will be always people who will not buy from Panama hatter X but from Y or Z. There will be others, who say it is not perfect to offend or try to bargain etc. But there will be many-many customers who will buy because they have historic examples to look at which are BEAUTIFUL.

Panama hats like any other products are ultimately graded by their SALES PRICE put on by their respective sellers expert opinion. If the guy likes that price/value ratio he stays and buys becomes a king, since customers are the kings, if not the commoners are free to move.

And finally, it might be comfortable for the seller if the kings display the ready hats but it is really the sellers homework to keep a comprehensive catalog of the own products to be displayed anytime.

Statements ’I have now some very fine hats, I’ll put some photos if I can’ will never have the power of real pictures.

Though shalt not covet thy Fellow Lounger's 1200WPSI PanamaBob Montecristi:whip:....repent and ye shall be saved by placing them all for sale in the FL Classifieds [angel] [angel] !

 

[Tomasso]

I feel like I'm walking into another trap. Goodbye~!

Ditto

 

[HungaryTom]

Though shalt not covet thy Fellow Lounger's 1200WPSI PanamaBob Montecristi:whip:....repent and ye shall be saved by placing them all for sale in the FL Classifieds [angel] [angel] !

YES MASTER ...

 

[Lefty]

I've got to disagree

While each panama is unique, all but a few of the very best are nothing more than commodities being created for the purpose of sale from a consumer who is unknown to the weaver and a weaver who is unknown to the consumer. Aside from the highest-end panamas, no hat is woven to order.

Therefore, like any other product, the supplier must select the raw materials (the hat bodies) at the level of quality that he will prepare for sale.

Can strict tolerances (I have engineer friends who bombard me with this word) be set for panamas? Probably not. Can each vendor create a quality scale of his own such that every hat graded of a certain quality can be reliably judged comperable to another hat of the same grade within his inventory? Certainly. Simply because a good is handmade does not mean that a consistent system of quality control cannot be estalished. For many years, mouth blown glass, hand carved chairs, jewelry, and countless other products have managed to create standards in order to ensure consistency.

 

[Panamabob]

Why do two fellows put up the sarcastic smiley? At least one of them, well, nevermind, but news travels fast.

Though shalt not covet thy Fellow Lounger's 1200WPSI PanamaBob Montecristi.

Now, why would anyone covet a hat that I've sold?

 

[HungaryTom]

Why do two fellows put up the sarcastic smiley? At least one of them, well, nevermind, but news travels fast.


Now, why would anyone covet a hat that I've sold?

Bob,

The header of Panama Hatworks of Montecristi consists of a group photo of 4 Montecristi Panama hats you have sold years ago.
I know at least one person who has purchased because of that photo. It is me-

The book of Martine Buchet (is it the second or the third edition?) is packed with hat photos which were sold at latest in 1995 - still people buy that book.

Tom

 

[carouselvic]

I bought the Buchet book just this week.

 

[Woodfluter]

Poor, poor dead horse...

...but who am I not to give it a final kick?

OK, I've got a degree in mechanical engineering, and am also a geologist who uses statistics a lot. So I totally understand the suggestion about grading and objective systems and quality control. But here's why it doesn't work. A little fable -

Once upon a time, there was a weaver of hats who was a perfectionist. His life's ambition was to create the one, perfect, ne plus ultra panama. So he selected and peeled fibers that were exactly matched for color and size, and he wove and wove for a year in ceaseless labor. His final product was indeed flawless. Not a bit of stray fiber end showing, no color variation at all, no unevenness to the weave. The hat was then blocked by a perfectionist of vast skill. And then...nobody would pay what it cost to make it. Because it looked like it had been made on machines.

In mass-manufacturing, variation is a vice; but in handmade items, a degree of variation is a virtue. Variations may also be deliberate and compensate (control) the effects of others that are random, a reason why handmade tools or instruments are sometimes better. Also, what one person wants is often undesirable to another. So let's abandon the concept of grading "quality" and consider instead "accurate description". The core issue here is that people are buying something without being able to handle it, put it on their heads, inspect it in person. If they truly understand what it is like, they can reach an informed decision about the price.

Yes, you could use something like a Munsell color chart, with sufficient samplings in different parts of the hat, to describe the average color and also the variations (average deviation). But would that be of value? Umm....nah. Even with the vagaries of monitor rendition, Hungary Tom is correct - an accurate, well-lighted photo will do that much better, and tell you whether you like the variations or not. Plus reveal a host of other characteristics.

Now, no criticism of anyone is intended by the following remark, because I know these folks are fully occupied with their core business - making something of value - but I am also somewhat surprised that more use isn't being made of photos. In the lower price range, it really isn't worthwhile to illustrate everything. In the higher range, if I were selling something, say a custom-made musical instrument, I'd take photos as I went along and of the final result, and send that to document the work and increase the appreciation of the customer. Just because it is so easy to do once you get a setup in place with proper lighting and color adjustment.

My (only!) 2 bits on this.

- Bill

 

[AlanC]

OK, I've got a degree in mechanical engineering, and am also a geologist who uses statistics a lot.

I had no idea!

lol

 

[Woodfluter]

I had no idea!
lol

Uhhh....I guess maybe that showed, huh?

 

[BellyTank]

I know I am being long winded here but:

It seems, that at present, Panama hats are separated, categorized and described for sale by each individual vendor, according to a "fairly useful scale", for the average buyer but only within that individual vendor's range of hats, comparative only to that vendor's collective wares- and these "standards" and their interpretation vary from one vendor to the next.
Add the problem of a little dishonesty and misleading guidance(even if only perceived) from a few, and across the board, it becomes a little meaningless. But probably not to the one-time-buyer, with not so much interest (potential financial/emotional investment)in the world of Panama hats... where most sales probably go- "I'd like A Panama Hat, please"

It seems likely, that each vendor's standards will differ somewhat from the others. The vendor's scale and descriptions are surely intended for the "average consumer", rather than the "educated consumer"- to de-mystify the world of Panamas somewhat, and this may not reflect ALL the infinite details demanded.
This adds up to what I perceive to be the problem. This and the fact that the Internet has given us greater informational expectations and appetites, options, especially when vendors are selling on-line. 20 years ago, I would just go into a shop and buy one, or make an inquiry from a magazine article or add.
Now we, as consumers, have the whole world of Panama Hats at our feet, or that's what we think.

Just like the world of Antiques-
everyone becoming an "expert" due to the vastness of information available at the press of a button.
Suddenly able to argue the minutiae with the most experienced of dealers...

As the "buyer" becomes more interested/invested in Panamas, armed with more information and some experience(accurate, useful, true, or not) in these hats, either from personal experience, or looking at a lot of photos, reading books, the internet, etc., he desires more information from the vendor, as can be witnessed in threads like this.

The problem mentioned in the first paragraph, is now exacerbated- vendors and consumers with different ideas/understandings of scales/grading and consumers with varying expectations and priorities.

As the hats are "collected" into categories but are individual by nature, all the information, on every hat cannot easily be offered by the vendor, without listing every hat with a detailed description and probably photos.
I'm sure that this added effort would cause an unwelcome price rise, with no value added to each hat. Say a vendor has access to 1500 hats (here and there and probably not immediately to hand)at any given time-
should he categorize them under 10 headings, with photos illustrating the quality? or should he photograph and describe each hat individually?
That could take a lot of time- could theoretically be descriptions and photos of "raw" hat bodies, rather than the finished article and would be pertinent to only a small percentage of the market. It seems apparent that at the higher end of the Panama hat market, the hats are made to order, individually for the client.

I'm quite sure that vendors make most money from "novice", rather than "expert" buyers and laying out all possible information is a waste of time and resources and would complicate life for the novice.

If you find yourself at the "higher end of the market" is it not better, easier to just state the personal requirements and preferences to your vendor of choice, within your price range? Make the call, send the email, ask the questions. This leaves you in a situation of trust but that is normally acceptable in most retail transactions-
"I am the consumer, he is the vendor I have approached to help me buy what I desire but I feel that I have most to lose..."


To standardize in any meaningful way, there must be an adminstrative "body" through whose hands, all Panama hats flow and are inspected and categorized, graded, marked(somehow) and then made available to retail vendors.

Would you (we) even trust such a system..?

Would you want this to become a "protected industry"..?
Imagine the prices then.

As I said:
I'm quite sure that vendors make most transactions with/money from "novice", rather than "expert" buyers and laying out all possible information is deemed unnecessary.

The amount of information demanded by the "expert buyer" is probably just too much for the "average buyer" and may result in less buying and more queries...

Is it not just better for the one-time-buyer, who wants "A Panama Hat, thank you" to order a "number 3" and the more advanced buyer to just ask the questions, do the communicating?

It must be very difficult and frustrating, as a vendor, as is now becoming quite obvious, to service all interested parties.

And maybe the "advanced buyer" could serve his own interests well by remaining polite and friendly with the vendor/s, in order to have his requirements met and get "a nice one".



B
T

 

[PabloElFlamenco]

To standardize in any meaningful way, there must be an adminstrative "body" through whose hands, all Panama hats flow and are inspected and categorized, graded, marked(somehow) and then made available to retail vendors.

Would you (we) even trust such a system..?

Would you want this to become a "protected industry"..?
Imagine the prices then.

Aaah..."Appellation Panama Controlée"... !
It's worked for French wine since the 1930's, but nowadays it's a bit under fire. The French AOC system provides buyer with a guarantee of origin. Not, really, of quality! The finer facets of the system, however, provide an "indication" of degree of quality, a hint of "what may be expected" (which expectation is not always fulfulled, like when the hideously expensive Burgundy wine from a very specific half-acre plot of terroir has turned into the most expensive acid-drink in the world due to bad vinification, or due to the extremely lousy weather that year).
But...it is a workable system; it works "in general".
To be effective, from the point of view of the consumer, the system imposes prerequisite and intimate knowledge of the finer facets of the variables, the elements which come into play to determine the degree of "quality", even as much as an indication of "type" of the wine.

From PB and Art's reactions, it seems the matter is sensitive. I'm not going to comment on that: I'm a nobody (who's just ordered his very first panama hat, on trust), whilst the other gentlemen have made the subject their life. In other words: respect. I bank on the word "recommendation" for investing, "à l'aveugle" (blindly...) in a medium (but not inconsiderable) priced, "average", hat, and expect ...better than that lol This same hat, from the perspective of a true connaisseur, might be...mere plunk.

Hungarytom's idea seems a darn good one. Very ...mmm... educational, for the inquisitive layman. Not to make him an expert; it may make him believe he is an expert (which ain't the same; in fact, it's often a nuisance).

Interesting subject.
Paul

 

[HungaryTom]

Very ...mmm... educational, for the inquisitive layman. Not to make him an expert; it may make him believe he is an expert (which ain't the same; in fact, it's often a nuisance).

Interesting subject.

Paul[/QUOTE]

Paul,

Bob and Art were right - I revised my thoughts.
This photo essay will be actually a trap,
But for us "educated"/in more honest words:addicted customers.
I envisage a display on somebody's site featuring 10-25 Pile master-hats blocked by Art, Gus, and Gary dressed with different ribbons blocked in all the beautiful hat styles....
And then I envisage all the freaks from around the globe sitting in the silence of their computer rooms with with dropping jaws, popping eyes, yo-yoing sight, cold sweat.... clicking with shaking hands on the shopping button.
And to take all those photos would take 0.005% of the energy consumed by waiting for unpredictable suppliers, doing all the legwork etc. etc.

Tom

 

[BellyTank]

I use the word, "expert" in quotes, very purposefully.
There are experts and "experts"- I find myself in the latter.

The French Wines example is an example of an old, established control and protection of reputation but I fear, the intricacies of the Panama hat and the "unique" nature of each example requires a somewhat different approach.

"Expertism":
...many hours of book reading, midnight-oil-burning over the archives of on-line fora, and poring over multitudinous, juicy photographic illustrations will arm one with much useful information and a degree of theoretical expertise but judging quality, authenticity from photographs and the unverified talk of other on-line "experts" is dangerous. Hands-on and actual, physical experience is the only way of being assured of quality and authenticity.
The camera does sometimes lie, it depends who is behind it.

"Learning" the specifics and minutiae of any given specialist field in this isolated fashion, not being directly involved, can lead to a very naive and shallow understanding of the bigger picture, the "whole" and is no replacement for hands-on experience and interaction with true experts.

Yes- Hungary Tom, a consumer, is in many ways the voice of calm reason and common sense here, among other consumers.

The more examples of Panama hats that are photographically documented, the more room there is for comparison and the ability to put a mental image to a textual description- "a face to the name" and allow one to choose more exactingly, by citing an actual example. But as Hungary Tom has just added, photos not necessarily as "educational material" but as eye candy for the shopper who wants options.


B
T

 

[PabloElFlamenco]

photos not necessarily as "educational material" but as eye candy for the shopper who wants options.

Of course..we know what photos are like: beauty not even skin deep!
(Me) Just look at that nice Ferrari!
(Jeremy Clarkson: a heap of rust) lol lol

Texture, feel, even smell (sulphur!), all elements photo's do not show.
I could never know how a hat feels from a picture: is it a piece of cardboard, or a soft, pliable Nutria felt...

Like history cannot ever be told in pictures...one would only rave at the nice tanks or planes...

Paul

 

[Panamabob]

 

[PabloElFlamenco]

(la fotó de PB) ...estupendo, amigo...pongamelo, ¡por favór! lol
(it means the same in English, when perfectly translated, except it sounds different)

 

[HungaryTom]

YEAAAAAAAH

:essen: :essen: :essen: :essen: :essen: :essen: :essen: :essen: