Oxford Bags

[herringbonekid]

...as well as those with a subtle bell curve, similar to those advertised. The latter were quite fitted in the seat and thigh, like sailor trousers.

if you have a photo of a pair of trousers that has a 22 inch hem (as advertised) and looks as flared as the illustration above please post it.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

yeah I guess that's the point on the flares. They're clearly flared - from resortes pics a while ago - but not THAT flared.

 

[resortes805]

Here are some Stiffel trousers I picked up recently in Chicago:

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

I have a draft in the same magazine as the other scans regarding the "Charleston Hose". It tells how to make very wide trouses out of the standard draft for "normal" trousers (in the fashion of 1929) I will scan it tomorrow. Looks like a a slight flare indeed.

 

[herringbonekid]

resortes, thanks for posting the photo, those look like interesting fabric (Stifel marked fabric nearly always goes for crazy money with the workwear crowd !)
they are indeed slightly flared, but i still maintain that the previous catalogue illustration is exaggerated way beyond what a 22" hem would look like, even with a slight flare.
might be interesting to see what the earliest date is for this type of U.S. 'flare'... there was a clip of film posted recently set on a campus that had a guy dancing in some flared legs. i think it was from 1929.

 

[resortes805]

might be interesting to see what the earliest date is for this type of U.S. 'flare'... there was a clip of film posted recently set on a campus that had a guy dancing in some flared legs. i think it was from 1929.

Yes, that was The Varsity Drag, released in 1930, but most likely filmed in '29.

Yes, the illustrated advertisement were exaggerated, but the flair is there indeed, and most noticeable on a body in motion. Here is Bobby White dancing in vintage sailor trousers:
[video=youtube;7quspTlFJaY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7quspTlFJaY[/video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7quspTlFJaY

 

[Two Types]

These look close to genuine 'Oxford Bags' i.e. wide but not ludicrously wide.

Here is the original photo caption: Here is a Los Angeles chap showing his new "Oxford bags" to his lady friends. These are the trousers which fashion has decreed the men must wear. They are 25 inches in circumference and to adorn the entire foot. (Copyright Bettmann/Corbis / AP Images)

 

[herringbonekid]

ah, TT, when you messaged me about the above photo i thought you were talking about a British example.
so far the closest we have to a British pair of fashion (not rowing) examples are these (unknown date, but probably 1925-7):

and these (1922):

 

[herringbonekid]

from the V & A website:

This caricature is of Cliff Ryland who was performing at the Grand Theatre of Varieties, Hanley, during the week of 24 October 1904. He was billed as ‘Comedian, Vocalist and Story Teller’. Ryland always carried a cane on stage, and often wore a straw hat, a loud blazer, a red cummerbund and wide trousers with large turn-ups known as Oxford bags.

this doesn't prove anything of course, as we always have to question who wrote the information and whether they were using the term 'Oxford Bag' in a knowledgeable manner, or not. it also is not saying the trousers in the illustration are Oxford bags, since he clearly isn't wearing the outfit described. the outfit described sounds very much like the traditional garish variety-hall entertainer garb (of which the Fast Show's Arthur Atkinson is a parody). could there be a connection between variety hall entertainers with their exaggerated clownish attire and the Oxford Bag, or am i barking up the wrong trouser leg ?


...

 

[Two Types]

Methinks there is plenty more to be found. The 'Oxford bags' of our traditional understanding is a much older beast then any of us imagined.

 

[Two Types]

I have been doing a lot of reading around this subject in the last week or so. The general understanding that bags erupted onto the fashion scene in the UK in 1925 but were terribly outmoded the following year is being challenged by some examples.
It seems that in the 1930s youths in Manchester were wearing superwide trousers - with one being quoted as wearing trousers with a circumpherance of around 40 inches! This is up there with the comedy/gimmick bags of the mid 1920s.
The general acceptance is that trouser cuffs had an average width of 11 inches (i.e. 22 inches around) in the UK during the thirties. However, this shot from South Wales shows three men (the one on the left is sort of hidden) wearing trousers that appear much wider than that measurement. They aren't the silly super-wide bags, but they appear much wider than the common trousers of the period. Indeed they would appear wider than the genuine, original, student-favoured, Oxford Bags of 1925.

There will be plenty more to follow on this subject .... but it may take some time.

I look forward to recounting the story of the Romanian man who had to be rescued by policemen wielding rifles with bayonets fixed, after a mob attacked him and stripped him of his Oxford Bags.

 

[reetpleat]

Really? Really? We finally get pictures of authentic "bags" and they do not show the leg size. Pretty well worthless for our purposes. Not to be ingrateful. Great find. But I sure would like to se the legs.

At least it tells us one thing. They were flat front and made out of a heavy wool flannel. I would not say they are an unusual fabric. This type of heavy wool flannel looks to be the same as cricket or other sport pants of the period. I suspect the wide leg has to do with a link between rowing and a nautical tradition, and, or, they might have been like arm up pants, easy to put on and off over a swimsuit maybe? Did they actually row in them?

The big issue seems to be that the cuff is a bit wider than 40s pleated, but the main characteristic is that the cuff is wider than the knee, and not the other way around. We all know some pants from the 20s and 30s had this type of flare, but pretty rare and generally more of a straight leg or slight flare.

 

[reetpleat]

Aha. As i suspected, they wore shorts. so, it would make sense that they would hav a full cut baggy pair of pants as warm ups, to be worn over the shorts. And, if you make the bottom wide, you can keep your shoes on. Viola. My further suspicion is that at Oxford, at some point, some crew guys began earing their warm ups to class, probably to be cool, and other students copied them. thus the term, oxford bags for the trend. This is an oft repeated trend resulting in the popularity of sports gear these days.

 

[Two Types]

Really? Really? We finally get pictures of authentic "bags" and they do not show the leg size. Pretty well worthless for our purposes. Not to be ingrateful. Great find. But I sure would like to se the legs.

At least it tells us one thing. They were flat front and made out of a heavy wool flannel. I would not say they are an unusual fabric. This type of heavy wool flannel looks to be the same as cricket or other sport pants of the period. I suspect the wide leg has to do with a link between rowing and a nautical tradition, and, or, they might have been like arm up pants, easy to put on and off over a swimsuit maybe? Did they actually row in them?

The big issue seems to be that the cuff is a bit wider than 40s pleated, but the main characteristic is that the cuff is wider than the knee, and not the other way around. We all know some pants from the 20s and 30s had this type of flare, but pretty rare and generally more of a straight leg or slight flare.

There is much more to come on the 'blanket bags'. However, rather than jump in with conclusions, there still needs to be lots more examination of the issues and certainly plenty of deeper delving.

I will say one thing, having now handled the rowing trousers, I can confirm that the fabric is unusual and is certainly not the same as the flannel used in cricket trousers or other sports clothing of the period. It is a cheap blanket material, of the type one would have expected English bedding of the period to have been made of. They are really fluffy and unlike anything that would have been sold for day-wear. Yet they were made by real tailors.

You'll need to be patient, there is more to come. All good things come to those who wait. In the meantime, we still need to see more pictures of Oxford bags from around the world. I'm sure they are out there.

 

[reetpleat]

Well, now that is a horse of a different color. Is it still a flannel? I imagine they made them as warm ups specific to the required purpose. Fascinating info. Imagine trying to figure this all out 10 years ago.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

These are the ones at Henley?

I will say one thing, having now handled the rowing trousers, I can confirm that the fabric is unusual and is certainly not the same as the flannel used in cricket trousers or other sports clothing of the period. It is a cheap blanket material, of the type one would have expected English bedding of the period to have been made of. They are really fluffy and unlike anything that would have been sold for day-wear. Yet they were made by real tailors.

You'll need to be patient, there is more to come. All good things come to those who wait. In the meantime, we still need to see more pictures of Oxford bags from around the world. I'm sure they are out there.

 

[Two Types]

Yes. Myself and HBK made a trip to Henley to examine the trousers. HBK's guess that the trousers were constructed from cheap - but warm - blanket fabric was correct.

We are now working on finding out more about the trousers and Oxford Bags in general. When we have 'pulled it all together' we will report back in detail.

**** I know I keep asking, but if anyone out there has any original British Oxford Bags, I would love to see photographs and measurements etc ******

 

[Two Types]

Imagine trying to figure this all out 10 years ago.

Without the internet this type of research would take years. Even just finding library catalogues would have been a nightmare. Even now it isn't exactly easy, but I can research in one afternoon that might have taken a month before the internet.

Let's hope the results of the research are worthwhile.

 

[herringbonekid]

(above) Rudolph Lehmann (Cambridge & Oxford rower) 1895 by Leslie 'Spy' Ward. you'll notice that the trousers are very wide for 1895, and that the artist has clearly depicted some sort of fuzzy, hairiness to the fabric.



Leslie Ward ('Spy')1851-1922, cartoonist, was born November 21, 1851, in Harewood Square, London. As the son of artists Edward Matthew Ward and Henrietta Mary Ada Ward, Ward's artistic talent was fostered from an early age. After being educated at Eton, Ward who originally trained as an architect subsequently trained under Sidney Smirke and W.P. Frith. He joined the Royal Academy Schools in 1871, during which time Sir John Everett Millais, struck by Ward's caricatures, introduced him to Thomas Gibson Bowles, the editor of Vanity Fair. Bowles recruited Ward in 1873 to replace Carlo Pellegrini (Ape). Ward contributed regularly to Vanity Fair over the next forty years under the pseudonym 'Spy'. He produced over 2,387 caricatures of well-known people including those in government, finance and education many of which were lithographed by Vincent Brooks. Ward authored a book of recollections in 1915, Forty Years of 'Spy'. He was knighted in 1918 and died on May 15, 1922 in London.


(below) W.A.L. Fetcher (Oxford rower) 1893 by Leslie 'Spy' Ward.

 

[Two Types]

I've noticed that 'Hogspear' has listed a boating blazer and trousers for sale (listing them as 1920s i think). I got very excited - but I'm afraid they are just normal flannel trousers.

I am still searching for the elusive references to link Victorian/Edwardian sports trousers to the birth of the bags. I have a very good lead - but I'd better not say too much yet.