Old Fashioned Men

[hargist]

At Chase where I make deposits for work they do not ever say thank you. Ever.

I hate to generalize because there are always exceptions to the rule, but I find that the the more casual "You're all set," or "Have a good one" rather than saying "thank you" usually come from younger people. It's a natural product of our ever increasingly casual culture. I also get the feeling that sometimes people want to say "please" and "thank you," but stop themselves in favor of something more casual because they don't want to seem too formal. The way things are now, strangers speak to each other with informality that is usually reserved for good friends.

Another phrase that bothers me is "You guys" as in when a server greets a table and says "How are you guys doing?" even when ladies are present. It's so pervasive that I've heard female servers call a table full of women "guys." Not only is it inaccurate, but I think it's rude.

Younger women don't seem to notice it. They just accept it, because when I have pointed it out, I have been told by many that they never thought about it, but now that they aware, it does bother them. Older women are certainly aware. I've been at a table where a lady corrected the server by saying, "First of all, I'm not a guy." I honestly don't think that the server understood what she was talking about.

 

[Mid-fogey]

Old Fashoned Men...

...Hmm. As far as manners are concerned, the rule I always follow is to try to show respect for others by my actions. I hold doors for everyone (no I'm not a doorman). I have no intention of changing or letting the rudeness of others get me down for long. I find that small acts of kindness brighten the days of the people I come into contact with.

 

[BegintheBeguine]

I hate to generalize because there are always exceptions to the rule, but I find that the the more casual "You're all set," or "Have a good one" rather than saying "thank you" usually come from younger people. It's a natural product of our ever increasingly casual culture. I also get the feeling that sometimes people want to say "please" and "thank you," but stop themselves in favor of something more casual because they don't want to seem too formal. The way things are now, strangers speak to each other with informality that is usually reserved for good friends.

I suspect it's a no-"Thank You" policy as younger and older tellers firmly do not say thank you. Ever. I did notice that Thank You is on the screen of the keypad in front of each teller's window, but not all customers use that. I've never heard an officer say it to a customer or client or sucker or whatever they're referred to now, either.Yet somehow the customer always says it to the person taking care of the transaction. Hmm. But I know what you mean about the age thing. It's cool not to thank anyone for anything, and young people so desperately want to be cool.

 

[Diamondback]

Well, I always say "Thank you", but following with a casually-drawled "Have a good one" as opposed to the traditional unnaturally-perky "Have a Nice Day" is just a small thing I do to remind folks that while they're dealing with something unbelievably stiff and professional, there's still some traces of "actual human being" to me. (And with how "mechanical" I can be, that reminder really does seem to help...)

But that's just me.

 

[KL15]

While browsing around the Powder Room, I cam across a thread about old fashioned men, and it got me thinking.
A lot of ladies out there dream of having that old fashioned man in thier life.
So we are lucky when we find you since you are all so far and few between.

I have a question for the old fashioned men of our forum.

Do you find yourselves ever being taken advantage of because you are old fashioned, or well mannered?

Examples

Being expected to pay, when the woman doesn't even offer to chip in at least for the tip in a resturant, or maybe you bought the tickets to a movie, she should buy the goobers, the popcorn or the drinks.

Opening a door. Have you ever had a woman just sit or stand there waiting for you to open the door?

I am a firm believer in please, thank you and may I.

What do you do in these situations when you feel you are being taken advantage of?

For the ladies of the lounge: Are or were any of you guily of taking advantage of these types of kindnesses realizing it or not?

Mam. As a gentleman, if you make any of these actions and are not told "thank you" you must understand you are doing this because it's the right thing to do. You do these things for that reason alone, because in your mind that is what you expect of yourself. Not for the admiration of your other. As far as paying I agree with the gentleman's earlier post, her company is enough. There is nothing tackier than telling a lady "your welcome" when they do not say thank you. I do much admire that you say "thank you" and those things go a long way to deciding wether or not I would ask you out for a second date. But you do not do any of this for show or for recognition. It's how gentleman act.

 

[Diamondback]

And on "being a gentleman", I found this from an unlikely source:

In the days of chivalry, the golden age of our profession, knights(officers) were noted as well for courtesy and being gentle benefactors of the weak and oppressed. From their acts of courtesy and benevolence was derived the word, now pronounced as one, "gentle man." We, too, are officers and gentlemen. Let us strive to live up to the high ideals of our military forbears. Let us be gentle. That is courteous and considerate for the rights of others. Let us be men. That is fearless and untiring in doing our duty as we see it.

--Col. George S. Patton, Jr. The Obligation of Being an Officer. October, 1919.​

Source: The Patton Society Research Library, http://pattonhq.com/textfiles/obligation.html

When you strip out all of the military stuff that has little bearing on most civilian life, he's pretty much on the money.

 

[Doh!]

Another phrase that bothers me is "You guys" as in when a server greets a table and says "How are you guys doing?" even when ladies are present. It's so pervasive that I've heard female servers call a table full of women "guys." Not only is it inaccurate, but I think it's rude.

I hear what you're saying, hargist, but it's a judgment call sometimes. For example, often in my work, I need to send an email to several people/departments at once. Even if it's addressed to a females-only list, I find myself writing, "How would you guys handle..." I would find it unnecessarily formal to address them as "ladies." Most are friends outside of work and I've even heard them address each other as "guys." If I were to use "Ladies" I'd probably be scolded. Or mocked.

However, if I in fact saw them outside of work, I would -- and have -- address them thusly: "Ladies, what are we drinking...?" (I tend to see my friends at bars.)

Maybe this should be a poll question: In a business setting, would the ladies here prefer to be addressed as "Ladies" or is "Guys" perfectly acceptable?

 

[Miss Neecerie]

The problem is the underlying lack of a plural version of 'you' in the English language.

"You guys" is the current substitute, except in Texas.

 

[Feraud]

The problem is the underlying lack of a plural version of 'you' in the English language.

"You guys" is the current substitute, except in Texas.

Here in Queens, N.Y. we have the much used "Yous" as in, "How yous ladies doin' tonite?"

 

[Diamondback]

What's so bad about "y'all", anyway?

 

[carter]

Originally Posted by Miss Neecerie
The problem is the underlying lack of a plural version of 'you' in the English language.

"You guys" is the current substitute, except in Texas.

Oh really...

I once had a waitress in South Carolina present our check with the comment, "Here's y'all'ses check." (The possessive form of y'all)

And...I know I've heard youuns somewhere. It may have been Ohio.

Then there's Montana where they don't say you at all. They just walk in the bar, spot a friend, and yell "hey rube". Well, that's what they do in Big Fork anyway.

 

[MrNewportCustom]

And on "being a gentleman", I found this from an unlikely source:

In the days of chivalry, the golden age of our profession, knights(officers) were noted as well for courtesy and being gentle benefactors of the weak and oppressed. From their acts of courtesy and benevolence was derived the word, now pronounced as one, "gentle man." We, too, are officers and gentlemen. Let us strive to live up to the high ideals of our military forbears. Let us be gentle. That is courteous and considerate for the rights of others. Let us be men. That is fearless and untiring in doing our duty as we see it.

--Col. George S. Patton, Jr. The Obligation of Being an Officer. October, 1919.​

When you strip out all of the military stuff that has little bearing on most civilian life, he's pretty much on the money.

From what I've read of him, I don't find the source at all unlikely. Patton was tough as nails with his men, but he was still very much a gentleman. The quote you provide proves it, DB, and so does the one I provide below (From Patton: A Genius for War - Carlo D'Este). (The scholar part intigues me the most: even though he was dyslexic he memorized the entire Bible.)


Lee
__________________________

"You must be: a horse master; a scholar; a high minded gentleman; a cold blooded hero; a hot blooded savage." - Patton

 

[Edward]

Here in Queens, N.Y. we have the much used "Yous" as in, "How yous ladies doin' tonite?"

lol "Yous" (pronoun. "Youse") is very much a part of all Northern Ireland dialects I ever encountered. I even remember an elderly neighbour of my grandmother's, I'm sure now long dead, who once sent my brother and I a Christmas card, inside of which she had modified the text to read yous. It's something that we in the polite middle classes are taught not to do, it being grammatically incorrect, but naturally it still slips into conversation at times. I will often use it semi-deliberately in conversation, actually, if I have been talking to one person as a "you" and then want to address the collective - it's a shorthand way of seguing from one to the other. I suspect that in NI this usage is very much influenced by Gaelic, as the way English is spoken there has a strong bedrock in the dialect-approach of the Gaelic language.

You must have longer arms than the average gator.

Any recommendations for gentlemen with shorter/weaker arms and/or dealing with a particularly stubborn door? I find that many doors around here have deadly hydraulic door-closing gizmos. On the other hand, I am a dainty-armed lady and don't have to worry about such things when there are gentlemen about. On the other other hand, I don't want them to give up their nice manners out of frustration and embarrassment.

--Leslie

I always have found it awkward to hold a door open when it opens outwards, but about a year ago I read somewhere that it is acceptable form when faced with a door that opens outwards to precede the lady through it, and then hold it open until she passes. In effect, in either situation, what you're doing is holding the door open for the lady, which is the object rather than letting her pass through first. Of course, if it is a door that is wedged open, I would always stand back and let the lady through first.

The one I had a little trouble with was when going down stairs. The old rule is that the gentleman should let the lady precede him up the stair, but should go first down - the idea being that he is there to break her fall should she slip. It feels counter-intuitive now to me to let a lady go first down the stairs, but if it's a stranger, I would do so mostly as people are still aware of the "ladies first" rule so it would look rude to step out in front. If it's a lady I am escorting, however, I would stick with the rule - my friends are all aware I do it anyhow.

Perhaps raising a daughter provides a sense of perspective. She has been raised to accept that doors will be opened before her and closed behind her, to walk inside a man on a sidewalk so she is shielded from traffic, to be polite and practice proper etiquette, and to be respectful of others. She is equally aware that she is entitled to expect the same from others. In short, I wouldn't know how to raise a lady without being a gentleman.
Old fashioned? I don't think so, unless civility and common sense have become declasse.

I've never actually had a problem with it. I consider myself a feminist, as do all my female friends, and none of them have ever taken offence at being shown basic courtesy - quite the opposite in fact. An ex girlfriend did attack me over it when we split up, but at that point (and for a long time after) she was really looking for any excuse to badmouth me (one particularly spirited attack on my character, I gather, was inspired by my having made the effort to ditch the pre-tied bow tie and made an effort to learn how to tie one properly for her graduation ball. So you can't really take the like of that seriously.

My last encounter meeting was going to a diner for french fries and gravy.
The guy wouldn't pick up the bill laying on the table until after I touched it.
We walked up to the register to pay. I handed him money...then he wanted to walk out the door without leaving a tip, after I had just put money down on the table.
(They say you can always tell a man by how he treats a waitress.)
...and I admit..this was a potential dating prospect....but I lost interest right away because he didn't tip the waitress until I had said something.

Tip etiquette is different over here (it's not like the US where a tip is expected automatically), but I certainly would never invite a lady out to dinner without insisting I pay the bill - and even if we did end up splitting the bill, i would probably insist on leaving a tip. It's been..... I'm not sure how long, but some years anyhow since I was out on what would be construable as a date, so far as I'm aware (frankly, in my experience ladies don't want gentlemen, the Russell Crowe type is what is in nowadays).... but I know that if I asked a lady out, it would be on the understanding I would pay. When eating out with a platonic female friend, I would have no qualms with splitting the bill, or leaving it at a "sure, you get it the next time" and letting her pay for the next one (providing it was a reasonable balance - I wouldn't let her pay for an expensive dinner if lunch was a burger). Pretty much the same in longer term relationships, all other things being equal (though I have discretly biased it my way in the past when I know the lady is not earning, or earns less than I do).

One thing that drives me up the wall, though..... I have an aunt and a mother who occasionally will want to pay for soemthing, but absolutely refuse to be seen to be doing it - so they insist on going through a charade of slipping me the money so I can hand it over. That I don't get. Maybe I care too little about what other people think sometimes...

 

[hargist]

I hear what you're saying, hargist, but it's a judgment call sometimes. For example, often in my work, I need to send an email to several people/departments at once. Even if it's addressed to a females-only list, I find myself writing, "How would you guys handle..."

Using the "you guys" phrase in mixed company is a hard habit to break. I've been saying it for years, until I realized how ridiculous it sounds addressing ladies that way. So instead, I've been saying "you all" instead of "you guys."

And if I'm wearing my seersucker suit, then I feel obligated to say "y'all" as I wipe my forehead and complain about the humidity.

 

[Starius]

One thing that drives me up the wall, though..... I have an aunt and a mother who occasionally will want to pay for soemthing, but absolutely refuse to be seen to be doing it - so they insist on going through a charade of slipping me the money so I can hand it over. That I don't get. Maybe I care too little about what other people think sometimes...

You know, my mother has been known to do this as well- to both my father and me. I don't know what her reasoning is, or how dad takes it (I suspect he doesn't care or just enjoys not having to take money out of his wallet) but when she does it to me it just makes me feel even more like a "kid" around them than I already do naturally. Which is rather ironic because I suspect part of her reasoning is to make me look more like a respectable adult.

Parents are still going to drive you nuts no matter how much you love 'em.

 

[hargist]

Yeah, my mom still likes to buy my breakfast when I'm back in my hometown, even though I'm now 38. Once a parent, always a parent. It's endearing.

 

[BeBopBaby]

Here in Queens, N.Y. we have the much used "Yous" as in, "How yous ladies doin' tonite?"

In Western PA it's been even further bastardized to the word "yinz." A word that I am proud to say I have never used.

 

[PA Dancer]

...(frankly, in my experience ladies don't want gentlemen, the Russell Crowe type is what is in nowadays)....

I don't know what that is all about either. I have been guilty of choosing those types of "guys" in the past.

I took time off from relationships for a long time to decide what it was that I wanted. I have come to the conclusion that I don't want to be the mother, the care-taker, the socialworker, the arm piece, or a prop. I need a balance. I have also come to the conclusion that there are "boys", there are "guys", and there are "men".
I think the type you are describing would fall into the boys or guys catagory.

Why was I attracted to that type of guy? Maybe because they were the ones that needed the mother-caretaker-socialworker type. I feel needed when I am needed.

Now, years later, and re-entering the dating world I am looking for the gentleman, the responsible type. It's all about balance.

...(One thing that drives me up the wall, though..... I have an aunt and a mother who occasionally will want to pay for soemthing, but absolutely refuse to be seen to be doing it - so they insist on going through a charade of slipping me the money so I can hand it over. That I don't get. Maybe I care too little about what other people think sometimes...

I think this is cute! She is still looking at you like a little boy. It's very caring. She is letting you be the man to pay, yet she wants to give you the money. Too cute. Most likely she will always do this to you.
: )

 

[carter]

Originally Posted by PA Dancer
My last encounter meeting was going to a diner for french fries and gravy.
The guy wouldn't pick up the bill laying on the table until after I touched it.
We walked up to the register to pay. I handed him money...then he wanted to walk out the door without leaving a tip, after I had just put money down on the table.
(They say you can always tell a man by how he treats a waitress.)
...and I admit..this was a potential dating prospect....but I lost interest right away because he didn't tip the waitress until I had said something.

This guy must be a real prince.

Originally Posted by hargist (not PA Dancer)
Yeah, my mom still likes to buy my breakfast when I'm back in my hometown, even though I'm now 38. Once a parent, always a parent. It's endearing.

My mom does the same thing. I'll be taking the kids back to VA for a week (leaving Sat.) before school begins. I'm sure she'll want to go to all the old favorite eateries. It's one of the things I look forward to the most.

Speaking of tipping:
When my Dad was still alive, he would always insist on leaving the tip, no matter who paid for dinner, and we always acquiesed. He religiously tipped $1.00 per diner no matter what we ate. This was actually quite generous for someone who grew up during the Depression and dropped out of school to join the Army Air Corps in WWII. One of us would always find a way to go back and augment the gratuity. I don't believe he ever knew we did it.

 

[PA Dancer]

A correction to Carter's post

Originally posted by:

Yeah, my mom still likes to buy my breakfast when I'm back in my hometown, even though I'm now 38. Once a parent, always a parent. It's endearing.