Ok, so some things in the golden era were not too cool...

[jamespowers]

Executive Order 9066 and 7552.

 

[David Conwill]

Executive Order...7552.

Exemption of William H. Long from compulsory retirement for age?

 

[jamespowers]

Exemption of William H. Long from compulsory retirement for age?

Yes.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Yes.

Hey, somebody had to protect migratory birds and wildlife, it might as well be him.

 

[vitanola]

Yeah, well at least it got the conversation back on track -- and away from the secondary sexual characteristics of an overage pop singer.

That it did indeed!

 

[vitanola]

Yes.

It really amuses me to imagine you garbed in "Wakeup! Ware™".

The Birchers are indeed resurgent since 2008.

 

[jamespowers]

It really amuses me to imagine you garbed in "Wakeup! Ware™".

The Birchers are indeed resurgent since 2008.

it amuses me that you won't even touch EO 9066. Want to defend it?

 

[LizzieMaine]

The justification at the time was that it was necessary, not just for "security reasons," but to defuse the lynch-mob mentality that was rapidly building along the West Coast, whipped up by the press and exploited by white "community leaders." While FDR's action in issuing the order was deplorable -- and he had issued it over the objections of J. Edgar Hoover, who warned that it was unconstitutional, and of Eleanor, who considered it an egregious civil rights violation -- he was hardly the only one to blame for it. The Attorney General of California -- Earl Warren, of all people -- and the mayors of Los Angeles and San Francisco, and the editors of the major papers along the west coast were all equally culpable for the paranoia that swept the region over the eight weeks or so immediately after Pearl Harbor.

 

[jamespowers]

The justification at the time was that it was necessary, not just for "security reasons," but to defuse the lynch-mob mentality that was rapidly building along the West Coast, whipped up by the press and exploited by white "community leaders." While FDR's action in issuing the order was deplorable -- and he had issued it over the objections of J. Edgar Hoover, who warned that it was unconstitutional, and of Eleanor, who considered it an egregious civil rights violation -- he was hardly the only one to blame for it. The Attorney General of California -- Earl Warren, of all people -- and the mayors of Los Angeles and San Francisco, and the editors of the major papers along the west coast were all equally culpable for the paranoia that swept the region over the eight weeks or so immediately after Pearl Harbor.

Yet he signed it anyway. No excuses. They also used the 1940 census records to track them all down too. Another misuse and illegal use of census records. Earl Warren was a moron---my great-grandfather knew him. Locally here we also knew that was all crap and they were not in a huge amount of danger. In fact, Mr. Nakashima here ended up selling his nursery and property to his white neighbor for a dollar. When he came back, he bought it all back for that same dollar. That wasn't a lynch mob mentality. I won't even mention that the government stole their property and sold it with no compensation---much worse than being attacked by the public in few cases---the government managed to protect them by looting their property and belongings---wonderful.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Note, however, that the actual text of EO 9066 makes no mention of forced relocations, property forfeiture, or any of those other consequences. It merely authorizes the designation of specific zones by the Secretary of War and military authorities, from which any designated person or persons may be excluded. This order remained in effect until 1976, although it was never used again after World War II.

Lt. Gen. John DeWitt, head of the Army's Western Command was the man who actually administered the creation of those zones and issued the proclamations which led to the relocations -- it was he who had originally convinced the President and Secretary of War Stimson that such zones were needed, and he remained in charge of the relocation program thru 1944.

Don't think I'm arguing that FDR's hands were clean in all this -- he allowed himself to be influenced by DeWitt's arguments that Japanese agents were planning a massive program of sabotage on the Coast, and that relocation was necessary to prevent chaos, and he permitted DeWitt to retain his post despite the high-handed way in which he administered the relocation program, and despite the fact that its legality was being challenged in Federal courts as early as 1943.

 

[jamespowers]

Note, however, that the actual text of EO 9066 makes no mention of forced relocations, property forfeiture, or any of those other consequences. It merely authorizes the designation of specific zones by the Secretary of War and military authorities, from which any designated person or persons may be excluded. This order remained in effect until 1976, although it was never used again after World War II.

Lt. Gen. John DeWitt, head of the Army's Western Command was the man who actually administered the creation of those zones and issued the proclamations which led to the relocations -- it was he who had originally convinced the President and Secretary of War Stimson that such zones were needed, and he remained in charge of the relocation program thru 1944.

Don't think I'm arguing that FDR's hands were clean in all this -- he allowed himself to be influenced by DeWitt's arguments that Japanese agents were planning a massive program of sabotage on the Coast, and that relocation was necessary to prevent chaos, and he permitted DeWitt to retain his post despite the high-handed way in which he administered the relocation program, and despite the fact that its legality was being challenged in Federal courts as early as 1943.

Let's also not forget that this also did the same thing to German and Italian citizens as well. One of our own members here has done some great research as to what happened there as well. The same situation---confiscation and internment. They cerrtainly couldn't use the arguement that they stuck out in the population like the Japanese did. FDR got the ball rolling and he is responsible for separating entire families and even causing some parts of families to deny others help because of fear of reprisal from the government as well. He can never be forgiven for these attrcities and whatever good he might have done is overshadowed by this xenophobia and downright dispicable Executive Order. Many will NEVER forgive him for that.

 

[jamespowers]

I forgot to add:http://www.gaic.info/

 

[LizzieMaine]

Let's also not forget that this also did the same thing to German and Italian citizens as well. One of our own members here has done some great research as to what happened there as well. The same situation---confiscation and internment. They cerrtainly couldn't use the arguement that they stuck out in the population like the Japanese did. FDR got the ball rolling and he is responsible for separating entire families and even causing some parts of families to deny others help because of fear of reprisal from the government as well. He can never be forgiven for these attrcities and whatever good he might have done is overshadowed by this xenophobia and downright dispicable Executive Order. Many will NEVER forgive him for that.

There's an excellent book called "Insidious Foes: The Axis Fifth Column and the American Home Front" that analyzes exactly what the national mood was in 1940-41 in terms of paranoia about saboteurs, fifth columnists, and Axis agents. It wasn't just limited to the West Coast, and as you say, and as I myself have been pointing out for years, it wasn't just directed against those of Japanese descent.

That level of paranoia peaked after the Pearl Harbor attack -- and nobody was immune to it, not even Presidents. I suspect most of us here, had we been sitting at our breakfast tables looking over the paper in February of 1942, would have read about the exclusion zones, taken a slurp of our Wheatena, and said "About damn time they did something about that situation." And then we would have forgotten all about it and gone on to see what Dick Tracy was up to. And that's how things like that happen.

 

[jamespowers]

There's an excellent book called "Insidious Foes: The Axis Fifth Column and the American Home Front" that analyzes exactly what the national mood was in 1940-41 in terms of paranoia about saboteurs, fifth columnists, and Axis agents. It wasn't just limited to the West Coast, and as you say, and as I myself have been pointing out for years, it wasn't just directed against those of Japanese descent.

That level of paranoia peaked after the Pearl Harbor attack -- and nobody was immune to it, not even Presidents. I suspect most of us here, had we been sitting at our breakfast tables looking over the paper in February of 1942, would have read about the exclusion zones, taken a slurp of our Wheatena, and said "About damn time they did something about that situation." And then we would have forgotten all about it and gone on to see what Dick Tracy was up to. And that's how things like that happen.

I doubt I would have been one of the Dick Tracy readers. It affected several in-laws in my family. They never forgot. I heard the stories 40 years later---still in hushed tones as they were made to sign pledges never to tell their stories under threat of further prosecution.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It should be noted too that not everyone took the exclusion orders lying down. Three Japanese-Americans on the West Coast challenged aspects of the relocation orders all the way to the Supreme Court, and while they each lost their cases the arguments make for interesting reading. The most famous and significant of the cases, Fred Korematsu vs. United States, decided in 1944, can be read here.. The dissenting arguments reveal the conflict that many felt about this program, even while it was going on.

 

[jamespowers]

It should be noted too that not everyone took the exclusion orders lying down. Three Japanese-Americans on the West Coast challenged aspects of the relocation orders all the way to the Supreme Court, and while they each lost their cases the arguments make for interesting reading. The most famous and significant of the cases, Fred Korematsu vs. United States, decided in 1944, can be read here.. The dissenting arguments reveal the conflict that many felt about this program, even while it was going on.

Having met Fred many years ago and heard first hand what happened, it was pretty bad. Letters to FDR and the like didn't help a bit. They were entirely ignored. He was quite a man and told his story in several venues over the years. We have a new Junior High School Campus named after him here.

 

[Alice Blue]

An independent documentary on the Korematsu case was shown on PBS in 2001, and it's available from my local library on DVD. You guys already know a lot about the case, but I'm going to check it out.

Not that this excuses the actions of the US government, but I did want to point out that at least two other democratic governments interned groups they felt were suspect when the war broke out, namely the UK and Sweden. There was an outcry in Parliament, and most of the UK internees were released by 1942: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/timeline/factfiles/nonflash/a6651858.shtml

On Swedish internment camps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_camps_in_Sweden_during_World_War_II .

 

[jamespowers]

An independent documentary on the Korematsu case was shown on PBS in 2001, and it's available from my local library on DVD.

Not that this excuses the actions of the US government, but I did want to point out that at least two other democratic governments interned groups they felt were suspect when the war broke out, namely the UK and Sweden. There was an outcry in Parliament, and most of the UK internees were released by 1942: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/timeline/factfiles/nonflash/a6651858.shtml

On Swedish internment camps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_camps_in_Sweden_during_World_War_II .

The problem with the Korematsu case was that the U.S. government withheld evidence about the necessity of internment during Korematsu's trial. The conviction was overturned decades later after the disclosure of the evidence challenging the necessity of the internment. That evidence could well have meant an outcry and release of internees here at least some time before the end of the war.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Exactly so. There had been studies by the FBI and the Army during 1942 on the question of activity by Japanese agents on the West Coast, and it was concluded that the risk of sabotage from such agents was minimal. Charles Fahy, the Solicitor General who argued Korematsu before the Supreme Court, saw fit to hold back these reports, which were classified material at the time.

Canada also evacuated and relocated people of Japanese descent from all of British Columbia. This program was implemented about two months before the relocations were ordered in the US.

 

[rjb1]

"... growing up I'd always wondered whatever happened to the people who'd been hippies."
I think there were a lot of "P.J. O'Rourke hippies" back then. Paraphrasing from memory, I think he said somewhere in his writings that he never really believed all that hippie stuff, he was just interested in partaking of the sex, drugs, and rock-and-roll. I think that applies to a lot of people from that time, including me. (minus the drugs in my case)
When all that went away they became ordinary citizens - some quite conservative...

A social transformation from that era (and just past) that always amazed me was the fact that the same construction workers and "hard-hats" (short-hairs) who chased and beat up the long-haired hippies became long-hairs themselves just a few years later. Long hair and even pig-tails were standard construction-worker style.