Nutria report

[mayserwegener]

Based on documented research or hearsay? We constantly confirm each other in that theory - but is it a fact, or is it based on notions and feelings? [huh]

In my opinion it's a combination of historical legend, felting ability and high price.

 

[Brad Bowers]

By the early twentieth century, which is when hat manufacturers appear to have seriously marketed nutria hats, they were importing nutria fur from Argentina, so there wasn't any conflation of beaver and nutria. Crofut & Knapp notes this in 1924, and there are probably earlier references if I look. They also note that nutria was used for its "brute strength, but lacks some of the pleasanter features of beaver, or the finer grades of hare's fur." The only nutria hat I own is a Knapp-Felt De Luxe Derby, and it has as nice a finish as the hare Derbies I own. I haven't held a nutria soft hat for comparison.

Here is what Crofut & Knapp had to say about their fur types. mayserwegener will like the note on the hare.




Brad

 

[mayserwegener]

Thanks!

Regarding Saxon Hare, here is a quote (rough translation from German) from an 1933 article on Echter (Real) Velour.

"Depending on the qualities are also of the countries of origin . So Saxony can boast the best hare , while the Nordic and Russian white hare can not be used. This is surprising , because the effects of temperature , ie, the severity of each winter to play at the elite among the animals and the condition of hides an important role. "

 

[T Jones]

Based on documented research or hearsay? We constantly confirm each other in that theory - but is it a fact, or is it based on notions and feelings? [huh]

+1 I think it's more that we've just been "conditioned"(?) to believe that Beaver was the "gold standard", especially in view of the many past discussions on both Nutria and Beaver here.

 

[John Galt]

I have a Stetson Real Nutria Quality fedora that is a great felt. The black nutria cowboy hat is also excellent felt - as good as my 100% beaver dress hat, and all of my nutria westerns are as good a quality of felt as comparable beaver fur hats. Nutria are harder to process because they have course hairs that must be plucked, but I personally don't believe the fur felt to be inferior to beaver in any regard. However, due to it's more tightly knit fibers, nutria felt doesn't really stretch well, and wants to return to shape more than beaver.

Just my $.02, having handled both types of hats.

 

[mayserwegener]

+1 I think it's more that we've just been "conditioned"(?) to believe that Beaver was the "gold standard", especially in view of the many past discussions on both Nutria and Beaver here.

The document Brad posted is more inline with what I have seen from the German / Austrian view point. The only difference is they would place Beaver more in the Otter category (similar situation regarding the fur being used for coats and women's accessories). Also they had a low opinion of Australian rabbit.

 

[TheDane]

Thanks!

Regarding Saxon Hare, here is a quote (rough translation from German) from an 1933 article on Echter (Real) Velour.

"Depending on the qualities are also of the countries of origin . So Saxony can boast the best hare , while the Nordic and Russian white hare can not be used. This is surprising , because the effects of temperature , ie, the severity of each winter to play at the elite among the animals and the condition of hides an important role. "

That's a very interesting note, Steve. It could be seen as supportive of the idea: "There's sooooo much, we don't know ... now and then"

If "the Nordic and Russian white hare" is the same animal, we (Danes) call "snowhare", it changes it's coat twice a year. Maybe the properties of the winter coat (the white coat) is different from the summer coat. We know (assume?), that the fur from animals, that don't have coats for different seasons, felts better in colder surroundings. They probably also knew/assumed that then - and that's the reason, they find it surprising.

Maybe, we just look at the explanations, we understand. Deeper research would probably kill a lot of our "knowledge", gained from misunderstood empirical observations and myths running in circles.

 

[mayserwegener]

I have a Stetson Real Nutria Quality fedora that is a great felt. The black nutria cowboy hat is also excellent felt - as good as my 100% beaver dress hat, and all of my nutria westerns are as good a quality of felt as comparable beaver fur hats. Nutria are harder to process because they have course hairs that must be plucked, but I personally don't believe the fur felt to be inferior to beaver in any regard. However, due to it's more tightly knit fibers, nutria felt doesn't really stretch well, and wants to return to shape more than beaver.

Just my $.02, having handled both types of hats.

What is meant by "Real Nutria Quality"? Also Nutria pelts were loaded with grease and very difficult to clean. Also the pelts (same with Vicuña) in many cases where contaminated with Arsenic which was applied in Argentina as a pest control.

 

[gtdean48]

... Does Winchester process raw fur pelts?
....

Nope. That was a question of cost in a beaver felt hat body = cost of pelts to travel to Europe to be processed & have fur bales travel back. All pelt processing facilities in America have been closed for years.

 

[Renault]

Good stuff here today!!! Thx to all!!

 

[mayserwegener]

That's a very interesting note, Steve. It could be seen as supportive of the idea: "There's sooooo much, we don't know ... now and then"

If "the Nordic and Russian white hare" is the same animal, we (Danes) call "snowhare", it changes it's coat twice a year. Maybe the properties of the winter coat (the white coat) is different from the summer coat. We know (assume?), that the fur from animals, that don't have coats for different seasons, felts better in colder surroundings. They probably also knew/assumed that then - and that's the reason, they find it surprising.

Maybe, we just look at the explanations, we understand. Deeper research would probably kill a lot of our "knowledge", gained from misunderstood empirical observations and myths running in circles.

Yes it appears they didn't know why the Saxon Hare produced a better end result. From what I have read summer coats were not desirable regardless of the Hare type.

There is mention over and over again about Hare being difficult to felt but they were able to overcome this with improved stains and other processing.

 

[TheDane]

The only difference is they would place Beaver more in the Otter category.

There are lots of that sort of mix-ups. In Spanish "Nutria" refers to the animal "Otter" - and in Danish "Bæverrotte" ("Beaver Rat") refers to the animal "Nutria". Biological systematics and genetics have changed a lot of animal (and plant) names over time. Nevertheless, some animals and plants still have names, not in correspondance with their biology as we understand it today.

There is mention over and over again about Hare being difficult to felt but they were able to overcome this improved stains and other processing.

That's also what I have read several places

 

[mayserwegener]

Nope. That was a question of cost in a beaver felt hat body = cost of pelts to travel to Europe to be processed & have fur bales travel back. All pelt processing facilities in America have been closed for years.

Thank you for the confirmation. When I visited TONAK I saw Hare and Rabbit pelts being processed but I didn't ask about the stains. I have a contact at TONAK but I am not sure they would supply such details.

 

[mayserwegener]

There are lots of that sort of mix-ups. In Spanish "Nutria" refers to the animal "Otter" - and in Danish "Bæverrotte" ("Beaver Rat") refers to the animal "Nutria". Biological systematics and genetics have changed a lot of animal (and plant) names over time. Nevertheless, some animals and plants still have names, not in correspondance with their biology as we understand it today.

Sorry I meant the cost factor. It's mentioned that Beaver was more valuable for fur coats, ect. Too expensive for hat making.

 

[TheDane]

Ahhhh ... thanx

 

[Joao Encarnado]

Good stuff here today!!! Thx to all!!

True.

I like both beaver and nutria felt hats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coypu

 

[Renault]

There are lots of that sort of mix-ups. In Spanish "Nutria" refers to the animal "Otter" - and in Danish "Bæverrotte" ("Beaver Rat") refers to the animal "Nutria". Biological systematics and genetics have changed a lot of animal (and plant) names over time. Nevertheless, some animals and plants still have names, not in correspondance with their biology as we understand it today. That's also what I have read several places

They sure do look like a beaver rat!!!
Lots of animal names here became very colloquial. The Europeans ended up either using native terms or a familiar term from their homeland for what they felt was a familiar looking animal. Here in the southwest almost all animal terms used by folks from Northern Mexico are of the Nahuatl language. Lots of those terms have fitted into everyday language amongst all here.

 

[TheDane]

fftopic: Sorry! I know, this is absolutely off topic, but I nevertheless hope, some of you will enjoy it

From time to time some of us European loungers get into controversy, caused by inadequate English skills - directly translated thoughts/sentences - or use of words, that are common for our own language and English, but have very different meanings.

A couple of days ago, I stumbled upon this article. Please, don't let's start a debate on the substance. Just note the name of the poor press-guy, chosen by Lego to reject consumer complaints ... "Roar Rude Trangbæk" lol

"Roar" is a rather rare Danish first name - the same as "Roger" - originating from a Viking king back in the 6th century. "Rude" is a last name, meaning "area", "square", "window", etc. I see a letter something like this on my inner Technicolor:

8< -------------------------- (snip)

"Dear" little annoying girl.

I don't care about your stupid dolls! Leave me alone!

ROAR RUDE,
Trangbæk

(snip) -------------------------- >8

Globalized life sure ain't easy! lol

:focus:

 

[fedoracentric]

LOL. And it doesn't help that in some nations a slang word means one thing and in another it mens something else entirely. We've all heard stories of product names that had to change from one nation to the next because a word in English means something dirty in, say, Arabic, or something. Heck, for that matter words change INSIDE countries, from one corner to another all too often.

 

[Flick]

LOL. And it doesn't help that in some nations a slang word means one thing and in another it mens something else entirely.

Fascinating discussion.


LOL, an old friend of mine still grins and recounts the episode when she was a much younger woman and traveled to England. She met a young man, at a pub, he walked her to her hotel, and as he was leaving her, promised he would 'knock her up on the morrow'.