Nutria report

[fedoracentric]

"Originally shipped to the United States from Argentina in the 1930s for its soft fur...."

This has always confused me. Don't we have plenty of Nutria Stetsons made long before "the late 1930s"?

 

[TheDane]

Wikipedia is your friend The first nutrias have probably been made from imported fur.

I think, I once read, that the nutria was introduced as an alternative industry during The Great Depression. I don't remember, if it was as a private interprise, or if it was under one of the great projects (NRA).

Edit: The Wikipedia article actually states, that:
"According to the U.S. Geological Survey, nutria were first introduced the United States in California, in 1899. They were first brought to Louisiana in the early 1930s for the fur industry, and the population was kept in check, or at a small population size, because of trapping pressure from the fur traders".

Seems as it could have been domestic fur from the turn of the century

 

[fedoracentric]

Yes, a domestic nutria source is what I had thought, too. So, this "late 1930s" business has nothing at all to do with the hat industry, is how it reads to me.

 

[T Jones]

I think the thing that sticks out to me most from the article is that thousands of Nutria are killed each year and the pelts are thrown away. Seems to be such a waste since vintage hats made from Nutria are highly valued by many collectors.....

Thousands of nutria are killed every year by the state’s Coastwide Nutria Control Program, and the pelts are currently going to waste.

After reading through many threads here on the Lounge there seems to be a greater fixation on hats made from Beaver fur, while at the same time vintage hats made from Nutria are highly prized by collectors...so which is better? Nutria or Beaver?

 

[Landman]

I have never owned a vintage Nutria but I have a new one from Art Fawcett made from a Winchester nutria body. It is totally different from my new beaver bodies from Winchester. It is a more durable and sturdy body. It reminds me more of a western weight body. You need steam to crease it where Art's beaver hats can easily be dry creased. I like it for a hat that is going to get a lot of rough use. I'm not sure if the older nutria hats are similar but that is my experience with a new one.

Maybe Alan will chime in because he has a beautiful collection of vintage nutria hats.

 

[splintercellsz]

The one vintage nutria Stetson velour I have has impeccable felt. I do wish they could make the bodies like they used to. Light and easy to shape. All depends on the shellac amount and treatment but nutria is a very durable felt. Looks great too

 

[Renault]

Nutria all over the place here in Texas. They have made it all the way up the rio grande and are as far as the Pecos river country as I have seen them that far west. They tent to be pretty much of a pest if you live close to water. They will chew down all your freshly planted sapling trees and play he** digging up dams and canals. We used to shoot them all the time.

But actually I don't think they are any more of a pest now than our regular beaver which are all over the place as well! Something else making a comeback are river otters!!! There's a pair on the creek a mile from the house and they have been seen and verified as far west as the Llano river country!

 

[Banky]

Nutria tends to be a somewhat more rough and hearty felt, great for westerns and rough wear. In terms of dress hats Beaver, as it always was, is the gold standard.

 

[mayserwegener]

After reading through many threads here on the Lounge there seems to be a greater fixation on hats made from Beaver fur, while at the same time vintage hats made from Nutria are highly prized by collectors...so which is better? Nutria or Beaver?

Yes there is definitely a fixation. Beaver and Nutria have great felting ability. Fur content is based on finish / color. For example the highest quality Austrian and German Velours were made mostly of specific Hare (not Rabbit) types with small amounts of Muskrat, Beaver or Nutria for felting purposes. Hare is harder to make felt (see the mercury factor*) but produces superior long hair finishes. In most cases vintage felts were blends (I have seen mention of Wool - Beaver blends).

*It's apparent that mercury (along with other additives) was a big factor in making Hare (again not Rabbit) fur felt.

 

[mayserwegener]

Nutria tends to be a somewhat more rough and hearty felt, great for westerns and rough wear. In terms of dress hats Beaver, as it always was, is the gold standard.

See my post above. Also Beaver was / is expensive so that has to factor.

 

[Renault]

Just to throw this out for discussion,,,,

Being we have an good representation of the international community here, is there a possibility of anything being lost in translation. As depending on where you were in North America during the famous fur trade; nutria, castor, and beaver were all the same animal. Depending on the nationality of the trapper.

I realize by the 20th century, the terms had all changed to their present form. Just something for fun!

 

[TheDane]

Yes there is definitely a fixation.

+1 ... Many of the vintage hats, generating fortunes for bay-sellers, have never seen the shadow of a beaver whisker

 

[TheDane]

Just to throw this out for discussion,,,,

Being we have an good representation of the international community here, is there a possibility of anything being lost in translation. As depending on where you were in North America during the famous fur trade; nutria, castor, and beaver were all the same animal. Depending on the nationality of the trapper.

I realize by the 20th century, the terms had all changed to their present form. Just something for fun!

Well, "Castor" is Latin for "Beaver", so here we're indeed talking about one animal. The Nutria used to be wide spread in Europe, so that would have been well known by European trappers.

I actually believe, that the average person (American or European) knew a lot more about wildlife back then, than the average person does today.

 

[mayserwegener]

+1 ... Many of the vintage hats, generating fortunes for bay-sellers, have never seen the shadow of a beaver whisker

I have been reading through some old German documentation and it's apparent that the addition of Mercury to the staining process was a big turning point. Improved staining processes (in the 19th century) allowed Hare to eventually felt more like Beaver, Otter, Muskrat, Nutria (also small amounts could be blended in to aid in felting).

 

[TheDane]

Yup! I guess, we all remember the great old hatter song:

Well if I had money
Tell you what I'd do
I'd go downtown and buy a Mercury or two
Crazy 'bout a Mercury
Lord I'm crazy bout a Mercury

I'm gonna buy me a Mercury
And cruise it up and down the road

lol

 

[Banky]

The question was whether beaver or Nutria was better. The answer then as it is now is beaver in the case of a dress hat, costs aside. I'm well aware other animals make fine felts but beaver is the gold standard, regardless.

 

[mayserwegener]

Yup! I guess, we all remember the great old hatter song:

Well if I had money
Tell you what I'd do
I'd go downtown and buy a Mercury or two
Crazy 'bout a Mercury
Lord I'm crazy bout a Mercury

I'm gonna buy me a Mercury
And cruise it up and down the road

lol

It's apparent that they couldn't find anything better in the 19th Century (and most likely the 20th). I would be interested to know what is being used today. I should have asked when I visited TONAK but I probably wouldn't have gotten a straight answer. Does Winchester process raw fur pelts?

Here is a 19th Century German stain recipe I found.

"It typically takes on a pound nitric acid, per four ounces of mercury, 1 to 1 1/2 ounces of corrosive sublimate of mercury (mercury chloride) and up to 2 ounces of white arsenic."

The ratio of sublimate of mercury to arsenic would change based on finish. More sublimate of mercury would be used for long hair finishes because arsenic (produced the shine) caused the hair to be brittle.

 

[TheDane]

I'm well aware other animals make fine felts but beaver is the gold standard, regardless.

Based on documented research or hearsay? We constantly confirm each other in that theory - but is it a fact, or is it based on notions and feelings? [huh]

 

[Renault]

Well, "Castor" is Latin for "Beaver", so here we're indeed talking about one animal. The Nutria used to be wide spread in Europe, so that would have been well known by European trappers.

I actually believe, that the average person (American or European) knew a lot more about wildlife back then, than the average person does today.

The present nutria we have here in North America as stated by others here, are an import from South America. The Spanish trappers in North America refered to the beavers caught in the Rockies as well as elsewhere here as la nutria, the French trappers; Le castor, and the Americans; beaver.

If you've never skinned a beaver or a nutria for that matter it is not all that easy a task. You will figure out why trade knives were shipped to the frontier by the 5 gallon keg! The skin does not slip from the creature as it does on a raccoon or possum. It has to be cut off! And is very dulling on a knife. Remember reading an account of Osborne Russell wintering with some Bannock Indians in the Rockies. How they trapped beavers for food and singed off all the hair and fur from the creatures in a fire, so they could eat them. Totally Unaware of the value of the skins back east.

 

[fedoracentric]

I'd say that the two animals (beaver & nutria) produce a different felt for a different need. Cowboys at the turn of the last century liked nootie fur because it wore like iron and wasn't as expensive as beaver. But beaver fur makes a very luxurious felt for a fancy dress hat. I don't know why we have to say either is necessarily "better," but beaver is more expensive, for sure, and "better" is often a matter of price.