New to the Vintage lifestyle, first meet up turned into a disaster

[HudsonHawk]

If my childhood memory serves, there was a bit of a news storm when some nazi group wanted to march in Skokie Ill in the '70s. I remember my Dad hating that they wanted to do that but saying to me that freedom includes allowing idiots to do stupid things like this.

"I hate Illinois Nazis." - Jake Blues

 

[Fading Fast]

If they’re one thing, it’s hypocrites. There’s a distinct possibility that Herr Hitler himself could have been a quarter Jewish. His father was illegitimate and there is some question as to the father.

As for advancing the blonde-haired, blue-eyed race, have you seen the man? Brown and brown.

I've read this in several histories as well - I think Hitler even had the town with his birth records shelled under some pretext which has led many to speculate he wanted to destroy the evidence.

 

[Fading Fast]

And what was really bizarre was the leader of the Nazi group was himself the son of Holocaust survivors.

Wow, just another crazy fact around what is always a crazy / angry group.

 

[tweedydon]

I don't get shocked by much, but this is appalling. I join with everyone who's expressed admiration for your restraint and decorum. MLK was absolutely *right* to judge people by the content of their character..... and it's obvious who in this horrible encounter has shown themselves the better people!

 

[sheeplady]

If people like that have any value at all, it's to prove to the rest of us that the spirit of fascism still walks the earth, and we can still have a part in fighting it.

Exactly. And it is OUR responsibility to fight it, especially those of us who are white people. I am sick of giving people a pass at being racist (even a little bit racist) just because they are family, or your boss, or your family, or your significant other's family, or they're old, they etc. Every time we ignore racist behavior by letting it pass without doing anything about it, we are emboldening people to act like this.

Silence is saying this is OK.

Racists are not welcome in my home. They are not my friends. They are not my doctors, lawyers, dentists, shopkeepers, etc. I've cut off relationships with family who are racists.

The only way to make this behavior disappear is to make sure that these people know that it is not OK, that as long as they act like this, they will be shunned not only by the people they despise, but by *everyone*.

How many of the guests at that party ignored the racist behavior? I bet some of them thought it wrong, but did nothing.

 

[coalchak01]

I thought Vintage clothing groups were about the look, fashion and fun of years past. And getting tips on where to buy and sell vintage stuff. Also the manners and history.
The group you describe sounds like it is a racist hate group using vintage clothing as a front to stay incognito. One reason is that they may be dodging the Southern Poverty Law Center, which spies on, photographs and takes videos of racist groups in thee U.S. They have closed down many local KKK chapters by suing them for damages against their victims or calling in the cops if necessary. I don't doubt that groups are using hobbies like motorcycling, Civil War reenactors, shooting or hunting clubs or the like to avoid the scrutiny of the SPLC, their nemesis. Now they are using vintage clothing, too.
This problem with radical racists is like the Hydra of Greek legend. Cut off 1 head and three others will sprout up in its place.
I would shoot the SPLC a heads-up about this group.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[GHT]

Silence is saying this is OK.

Well said, you have shaken me out of my lethargy, silence is akin to condoning.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke
I'm sure that Edmund Burke would have included both genders had he quoted that today.

As others have said, I deplore this sort of treatment.

 

[sheeplady]

Some tangled thoughts I'm having this morning before I head out to work.

I'm convinced that most racists aren't as forthcoming in their admitted racism as these people were. Most of the people I've encountered who use racist language are the types who use the n-word only in the company of whites. However, they do other racist things: staring rudely, denying services (or providing lesser services), being rude, refusing to interact with people of color with genuineness, etc. Racists like this are the ones that I think other whites tend to tolerate under the guise of, "well, they'd NEVER say that to a black person's face."

So it's OK, right?

AKA, "Aunt Betty uses the n-word in her home but she'd never say that to a black person's face. She's old. She's my aunt. She'd never be rude to a black person."

Sometimes Aunt Betty will even say, "I can use whatever language I want in my own home. I'd never say it in public. I'm not racist."

Which means, of course, when you don't say something to Aunt Betty, you are telling her it's an OK word to use.

The thing is, the people like Aunt Betty are actually some of the most awful racists. They not only get support from white people to continue their racism, but because they aren't direct racists, people of color have no idea to outright avoid them. For instance, the OP knows forever to avoid people she met in that vintage scene and will likely tell others in her area to avoid them too. But what if the people were just slightly rude? Or stared a little too much? Or made a few insensitive jokes? Is that because they're racist? How do you know?

And what do we think, as a society, when people of color point out that they are being treated unfairly because of the color of their skin, when there is no clear cut evidence? We tend to downplay their concerns, tell them they are crying "false racism." "Not everything that happens to you is because of the color of your skin," people say. "What did you do to provoke that treatment?" we ask. Meanwhile, the victim could have encountered a person like Aunt Betty who really does think that people of color are n-words and surprise surprise, what you think about a person does affect your behavior towards them.

 

[scotrace]

Welcome to The Fedora Lounge, Lisserbee. You're among friends here and we look forward to learning about your new interest in vintage stuff. There's no better source of information on the net.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The thing is, the people like Aunt Betty are actually some of the most awful racists. They not only get support from white people to continue their racism, but because they aren't direct racists, people of color have no idea to outright avoid them. For instance, the OP knows forever to avoid people she met in that vintage scene and will likely tell others in her area to avoid them too. But what if the people were just slightly rude? Or stared a little too much? Or made a few insensitive jokes? Is that because they're racist? How do you know?

And what do we think, as a society, when people of color point out that they are being treated unfairly because of the color of their skin, when there is no clear cut evidence? We tend to downplay their concerns, tell them they are crying "false racism." "Not everything that happens to you is because of the color of your skin," people say. "What did you do to provoke that treatment?" we ask. Meanwhile, the victim could have encountered a person like Aunt Betty who really does think that people of color are n-words and surprise surprise, what you think about a person does affect your behavior towards them.

That's exactly the sort of "coded" racism that's far more common in contemporary society than the overt kind. Those who engage in this sort of thing know exactly what they're doing and what they're saying, and they've got their Plausible Deniability explanations/rationalizations all set to go when they get caught at it. But once you understand the code phrases, it's hard not to pick up on the subtext. And once you start picking up on the subtext, you'll realize just how very far we haven't come.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Yet we have allowed ourselves to be reduced to baby talk with only the first letter 'blank' words..(when everyone knows what they really mean). Leads to.. if we don't agree with any of your reasoning about a serious subject then you have a phobia, of course, and we must shut you the hell up if you fail to conform to our certain higher standards. We will erase whole words for you and hopefully exercise authority over any unacceptable thoughts that may dare to express themselves into forbidden words. I can see great danger on both sides of the issue. The professed 'tolerant' exhibiting themselves as prime examples of actual 'intolerance' with determination that no one should ever deal with feeling offended. A never ending process of 'what's next(?)' to reach that utopia.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

The group you describe sounds like it is a racist hate group using vintage clothing as a front to stay incognito. One reason is that they may be dodging the Southern Poverty Law Center, which spies on, photographs and takes videos of racist groups in thee U.S. They have closed down many local KKK chapters by suing them for damages against their victims or calling in the cops if necessary. I don't doubt that groups are using hobbies like motorcycling, Civil War reenactors, shooting or hunting clubs or the like to avoid the scrutiny of the SPLC, their nemesis. Now they are using vintage clothing, too.

I think you may be on to something because historically groups like the KKK often did operate in the guise of hunting/fishing clubs, benevolent associations and charities for "widows and orphans." You would come upon an organization called, for example, the such and such County Improvement Society but was in fact the local Klan. Vintage clothing might be a new twist because all the other aforementioned interests do show up on the SPLC's radar nowadays.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I just finally read the first post in this thread and must say that the actions of the host and others were indeed terrible. How could anyone be so blatantly rude, crude, and, yes, racist..?? It is disgraceful. I couldn't/wouldn't associate with any group that would even consider treating others in that shameful way. I just don't know how anyone could change the minds of others with those attitudes.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Yet we have allowed ourselves to be reduced to baby talk with only the first letter 'blank' words..(when everyone knows what they really mean). Leads to.. if we don't agree with any of your reasoning about a serious subject then you have a phobia, of course, and we must shut you the hell up if you fail to conform to our certain higher standards. We will erase whole words for you and hopefully exercise authority over any unacceptable thoughts that may dare to express themselves into forbidden words. I can see great danger on both sides of the issue. The professed 'tolerant' exhibiting themselves as prime examples of actual 'intolerance' with determination that no one should ever deal with feeling offended. A never ending process of 'what's next(?)' to reach that utopia.

+1

I also have a problem with being ivory-towered with what sounds noble and righteous in theory but in practice can be downright dangerous. It sounds wonderful to say that racism (or any other odious ideology) must be directly confronted anywhere and everywhere it is encountered but it also comes with the implication that if you're not doing the confronting then you're part of the problem. Unfortunately this viewpoint presupposes a level of courage that I do not believe many people have. I'm not saying that people are cowardly by nature but there are different levels of courage. Most want to get through the day without somebody in their face or wanting to take a swing at them or worse and being confrontational is a very good way to ensure such an outcome.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It's possible to make it clear that the behavior is unacceptable without being aggressive. "I don't care for your attitude, and I think you know why" is one way of expressing such a view. My own mother, many years ago, made some offensive remarks out loud in a restaurant because an interracial couple was sitting at the next table. I got up, walked out, and left her there to find her own way home. I never raised my own voice, but the point was made. I'm happy to say she's grown up a lot since then and admits she was not just wrong, but an utter ass besides.

There are times, though, when being aggressive is entirely appropriate, and damn the consequences. We had a show last winter featuring a performer who, among other things, performed a number on the shofar, a Jewish ceremonial horn. A group of people attending the show decided this would be a good time to express their anti-Semitism, screaming "CUT THE JEW SH*T."

I had no problem at all personally ejecting them from the concert and banning them from future shows. If anybody has a problem with that, I couldn't possibly give a damn.

 

[F. J.]

Women are men, too . . .

[...]
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke
I'm sure that Edmund Burke would have included both genders had he quoted that today.
[...]

“Man
noun (pl. men)

1 an adult human male.​

[...]​

2 a human being of either sex; a person.”​

​

I have always found it curious that no one seems to realise that the term ‘man’ refers to both sexes, depending on context.

 

[2jakes]

I have always found it curious that no one seems to realise that the term ‘man’ refers to both sexes, depending on the context.

To be more precise:

I have always found it curious that "many" do not seem to realize that the term 'man' refers to both sexes,
depending on the context.

 

[jamespowers]

The midwest -- specifically Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Michigan -- was the cradle of several of the racially-based "American fascist" movements during the Era. The Coughlinites and the Black Legion were the most noticeable, but the Silver Shirts and the German-American Bund also had a strong presence in these states. And, of course, in the twenties, the Klan pretty much ran the state of Indiana, and was very strong thruout the midwest.

The supporters of those movements didn't just disappear when the movements themselves broke up. The Horst Wessel Song may be over, but clearly the melody lingers on.

It certainly sounded like a Bund meeting more than a vintage get together. :doh: Horrible!

 

[sheeplady]

That's exactly the sort of "coded" racism that's far more common in contemporary society than the overt kind. Those who engage in this sort of thing know exactly what they're doing and what they're saying, and they've got their Plausible Deniability explanations/rationalizations all set to go when they get caught at it. But once you understand the code phrases, it's hard not to pick up on the subtext. And once you start picking up on the subtext, you'll realize just how very far we haven't come.

Exactly. A woman I know went into a salon and asked for a haircut. Not a straightening, not a relaxer, a simple trim. One of the stylists waved her out and said, "We don't do the black hair here." My friend tried to explain, but the woman kept saying over and over again, "we don't do the black hair here."

Ok, all well and fine that you don't do relaxing or straightening or braiding or any number of services, but you couldn't trim her hair? And you had to say it like that?

+1

I also have a problem with being ivory-towered with what sounds noble and righteous in theory but in practice can be downright dangerous. It sounds wonderful to say that racism (or any other odious ideology) must be directly confronted anywhere and everywhere it is encountered but it also comes with the implication that if you're not doing the confronting then you're part of the problem. Unfortunately this viewpoint presupposes a level of courage that I do not believe many people have. I'm not saying that people are cowardly by nature but there are different levels of courage. Most want to get through the day without somebody in their face or wanting to take a swing at them or worse and being confrontational is a very good way to ensure such an outcome.

The issue is that most of the time it won't come to blows. We're not talking about facing down a rouge gang of KKK members where you are outnumbered. We are talking about everyday situations with people *you know*- when your friend on facebook posts something inappropriate, when someone uses a derogatory word in your home or in front of your kids, when your dentist uses inappropriate language or jokes.

Honestly, if you have someone in your home that you feel you cannot ask to leave because they may hurt you physically, you have greater problems than a racist on your hands. The same with a dentist or a friend or a family member. If they are seriously going to beat you up because you asked them not to use the n-word or any other series of inappropriate words; you have big problems. You shouldn't associate with people who will hurt you, racist or not.

I have left parties and told the host that I was uncomfortable with the language being used/ jokes being told. I have asked a person to leave my home. I left an extracurricular club in college (a comedy troupe) in which a skit was developed by two members which was outright racist and I told them why (I was the only one who raised the issue when the skit was presented, I got about six emails that thanked me from bringing it up, but not one of those people said a thing). I have said things on Facebook when someone posts something inappropriate. I have cut out family members who are racists.

Did some of these people get irate? Sure. But guess what, I would rather have them get irate at me than to hurt someone else. And if I, as a white person can't confront a person for using vile language, what hope does a victim of racism have? Are the victims supposed to be the only ones who fight back?

I can guarantee you that I am not any more brave than anyone else on here. Not a bit. But a few years ago I came to realize that my silence *hurt* my friends and family. And the racism they have faced has hurt them far more deeply and fundamentally than any confrontation I have ever had has hurt me.

 

[sheeplady]

It's possible to make it clear that the behavior is unacceptable without being aggressive. "I don't care for your attitude, and I think you know why" is one way of expressing such a view. My own mother, many years ago, made some offensive remarks out loud in a restaurant because an interracial couple was sitting at the next table. I got up, walked out, and left her there to find her own way home. I never raised my own voice, but the point was made. I'm happy to say she's grown up a lot since then and admits she was not just wrong, but an utter ass besides.

There are times, though, when being aggressive is entirely appropriate, and damn the consequences. We had a show last winter featuring a performer who, among other things, performed a number on the shofar, a Jewish ceremonial horn. A group of people attending the show decided this would be a good time to express their anti-Semitism, screaming "CUT THE JEW SH*T."

I had no problem at all personally ejecting them from the concert and banning them from future shows. If anybody has a problem with that, I couldn't possibly give a damn.

Good work. I think sometimes people don't know they are acting like an ass until it is pointed out to them. I've said things to a number of people who I don't think otherwise would have examined their behavior. Our society is (in some ways) inherently racist and rewards racist ways of thinking. But that isn't going to change unless we start examining our behavior. Some people need a push.

Then there are other people who *know* they are acting like an ass and don't care. I told one family member that they at the least had to choose between them using the n-word in my presence or our relationship. They chose the n-word. I got the better part of the bargain out of that one, let me tell you.

The main difference I have found between racists and non-racists is if the person seems to have ever asked themselves the question, "Is my thought/ that joke I think is funny/ my words racist?" The unexamined life and all that goodness.