Modern custom vs Vintage

[deadlyhandsome]

As is being implied in several posts (if not outright stated), vintage felt that is soft and malleable is something that improves as the felt ages. We handle vintage felt today (after it has aged 70-100+ years) and declare that it is superior in everyway to even the best custom hat made today. What we don't know is, what did that hat feel like when it was new? For instance, I have a Stetson Catera (5X - 100% fur felt - likely rabbit) I purchased new in May 2021. When I got it, it was hard as a rock. one year later, after being reshaped a few times using water and steam and handled several times, it is getting pretty soft. I can almost dry crease it to some extent. Similar story to a 100% beaver hat that was custom made just at one year ago. I pulled it out of the box yesterday and it is noticeably softer than when it showed up on my doorstep. So, what will these hats be like in 5-10 years? I am just talking about the felt and the stiffeners used in the felt.

As Brent indicated in his thread bump post, "To each his own" on what makes a hat great. So to my mind (based on what I think I'm learning on this forum), the felt is probably the hardest thing to assess when judging the quality of a new hat to vintage hat (what will either of my hats felt be like in another 70 years). Although, the other things are likely much easier to judge: A comfortable and durable sweatband likely being first and foremost on a daily hat wearers checklist. I could go on from there about the liners, the Cavanaugh edge, etc. but others have certainly discussed those features in previous posts.

This post is either food for thought or indicates that I need to go back to school and learn much more on vintage hats (if so, please let me know that).

I don’t know that felt continues to change appreciatively over its entire life. We have some older movies, even including some home movies, showing what was new felt then where it’s very different (clay-like) than modern felt. We also have contemporary descriptions and accounts and lots of advertising of the time which all support that the better felt from what we now consider the Golden Age was different from the start. I agree that felt does continue felting and eventually becomes “dead” when that felting process stops. I also believe that it normally accounts for a minuscule portion of the felting process. The 1970s felts aren’t going to turn into 1940s quality if we wait another thirty years.

Again, in my opinion, the vintage hats not only had better felt they had better components, appointments, and better build techniques. A 100 year old leather sweatband that is thin, supple, and completely intact is an incredible thing, and I’ve yet to see it’s modern equivalent. I also don’t have any faith that modern sweatbands are going to be serviceable in 100 years…I’ll check back with you then.

Much modern felt is defined more by the stiffeners added than how it was felted or the fur used. Stiffeners break down over time and from exposure to sun and the elements as well as being handled. Modern felt, particularly modern western felt, can change a lot as it mellows as the stiffeners break down. According to my small sample size, higher end modern western felt such as pure beaver tends to change less over time. Many contemporary customers would consider the modern felt’s qualities to be a big improvement over vintage felt. Many modern buyers are looking for something else in their hats; such as a hat that doesn’t change its shape at all over decades of wear, and malleable felt is a detraction rather than a positive to such.

I have fur felt hats from most eras from the early 20th century to current production. It’s hard to argue that quality didn’t take a nosedive and by the late 1950s US felt wasn’t nearly as good as it had been. However, I really don’t want to focus just on the felt. A top tier hat from the 1940s or earlier is better than a modern custom not just because of the felt quality. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Frunobulax]

As is being implied in several posts (if not outright stated), vintage felt that is soft and malleable is something that improves as the felt ages. We handle vintage felt today (after it has aged 70-100+ years) and declare that it is superior in everyway to even the best custom hat made today. What we don't know is, what did that hat feel like when it was new? For instance, I have a Stetson Catera (5X - 100% fur felt - likely rabbit) I purchased new in May 2021. When I got it, it was hard as a rock. one year later, after being reshaped a few times using water and steam and handled several times, it is getting pretty soft. I can almost dry crease it to some extent. Similar story to a 100% beaver hat that was custom made just at one year ago. I pulled it out of the box yesterday and it is noticeably softer than when it showed up on my doorstep. So, what will these hats be like in 5-10 years? I am just talking about the felt and the stiffeners used in the felt.

As Brent indicated in his thread bump post, "To each his own" on what makes a hat great. So to my mind (based on what I think I'm learning on this forum), the felt is probably the hardest thing to assess when judging the quality of a new hat to vintage hat (what will either of my hats felt be like in another 70 years). Although, the other things are likely much easier to judge: A comfortable and durable sweatband likely being first and foremost on a daily hat wearers checklist. I could go on from there about the liners, the Cavanaugh edge, etc. but others have certainly discussed those features in previous posts.

This post is either food for thought or indicates that I need to go back to school and learn much more on vintage hats (if so, please let me know that).

While we don't have time travel to go back and see what a vintage felt was like when it was new, we do have benchmarks - notably old movies and the like. We can see how hats respond in the film footage as there are scenes that show somebody creasing a hat, or manipulating it in some way. Also, just looking at the organic nature of the creases in older hats, you can see how the act and respond. The older hats show that kind of "crinkly" look we can only approximate with modern felts. A couple of my customs approach this quality, but none really replicate it.

 

[belfastboy]

I don’t know that felt continues to change appreciatively over its entire life. We have some older home movies showing what was new felt then where it’s very different (clay-like) than modern felt. We also have contemporary descriptions and accounts and lots of advertising of the time which all support that the better felt from what we now consider the Golden Age was different from the start. I agree that felt does continue felting and eventually “dies” or becomes dead when that felting process stops. I also believe that it normally accounts for a minuscule portion of the felting process. The 1970s felts aren’t going to turn into 1940s quality if we wait another thirty years.

Again, in my opinion, the vintage hats not only had better felt they had better components, appointments, and better build techniques. A 100 year old leather sweatband that is thin, supple, and completely intact is an incredible thing, and I’ve yet to see it’s modern equivalent. I also don’t have any faith that modern sweatbands are going to be serviceable in 100 years…I’ll check back with you then.

Much modern felt is defined more by the stiffeners added than how it was felted or the fur used. Stiffeners break down over time and from exposure to sun and the elements as well as being handled. Modern felt, particularly modern western felt, can change a lot as it mellows. According to my small sample size, higher end modern western felt such as pure beaver tends to change less over time. Many contemporary customers would consider the modern felt’s qualities to be a big improvement over vintage felt. Many modern buyers are looking for something else in their hats; such as a hat that doesn’t change its shape at all over decades of wear, and malleable felt is a detraction rather than a positive to such.

I have fur felt hats from most eras from the early 20th century to current production. It’s hard to argue that quality didn’t take a nosedive and by the late 1950s US felt wasn’t nearly as good as it had been. However, I really don’t want to focus just on the felt. A top tier hat from the 1940s or earlier is better than a modern custom not just because of the felt quality. Again, just my opinion.

I was in conversation with a European hatter than had a few NOS felts from the era of mercury use. She told me that they were the most luxurious felts she had ever handled. I came so close to ordering a hat but stopped myself because she only had navy blue. I do regret not ordering.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I was in conversation with a European hatter than had a few NOS felts from the era of mercury use. She told me that they were the most luxurious felts she had ever handled. I came so close to ordering a hat but stopped myself because she only had navy blue. I do regret not ordering.

Mercury era and in navy blue! I’d love to have had that opportunity.

I have a VS that Art made from a NOS 1950s Mallory hat body…I’m glad I have it, but it’s not great felt. By the 1950s a lot of felt quality was in steep decline and even earlier felt ran the range as far as quality.

 

[belfastboy]

Mercury era and in navy blue! I’d love to have had that opportunity.

I have a VS that Art made from a NOS 1950s Mallory hat body…I’m glad I have it, but it’s not great felt. By the 1950s a lot of felt quality was in steep decline and even earlier felt ran the range as far as quality.

It was Esther that had it. But shipping cost was another impediment so I talked myself out of it.

 

[ILB Frank]

@deadlyhandsome @Frunobulax @belfastboy Thank you for correcting my line of thinking and interpretation of what I'm reading here. Hopefully I'll be ready by the time of the final exam

I am never going to be a hat connoisseur but it is interesting stuff and I do like having the proper understanding of stuff like this.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

@deadlyhandsome @Frunobulax @belfastboy Thank you for correcting my line of thinking and interpretation of what I'm reading here. Hopefully I'll be ready by the time of the final exam

I am never going to be a hat connoisseur but it is interesting stuff and I do like having the proper understanding of stuff like this.

My problem is I forget 90% of what I knew and have to rely on the patience of friends and strangers alike. My mind just doesn’t hold onto the details. Please don’t tell me there’s a final exam.

 

[Frunobulax]

@deadlyhandsome @Frunobulax @belfastboy Thank you for correcting my line of thinking and interpretation of what I'm reading here. Hopefully I'll be ready by the time of the final exam

I am never going to be a hat connoisseur but it is interesting stuff and I do like having the proper understanding of stuff like this.

Believe me, you're already a hat connoisseur. All your friends would think so!

My problem is I forget 90% of what I knew and have to rely on the patience of friends and strangers alike. My mind just doesn’t hold onto the details. Please don’t tell me there’s a final exam.

All story problems. With math. Specifically, logarithms.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

Believe me, you're already a hat connoisseur. All your friends would think so!



All story problems. With math. Specifically, logarithms.

I’m sure the felt density final exam would humble most of us.
And the blind felt quality comparison exam given in a dark room would have to be pass/fail.

 

[Short Balding Guy]

I find it hard to make judgements based upon the broad catagory of modern vs. vintage felts.

The differences of the vintage felts, close-up is very subtle. The differences as a whole make a big difference. Check-out the linked thread below.

A terrific thread that Alan initiated and posted some micrographs of vintage felt hats is here: https://mail.thefedoralounge.com/threads/felt-micrographs.73279/

My understanding and experience is that the fur (that makes up the felt of hats) does indeed change over the use of the felt (hat). The hat becomes easier to "snap the brim, or crease the crown." I see this in my modern (customs) and even in my vintage hats. I have several vintage hats that show lots of change since aquiring them. Indeed I have several hats who would require me to wear very hard to see any change in felt (like a couple 50-60's Adam fedoras).

I really like the pics that Alan posted in the TFL Felt Micrograph thread as it better shows the felt of the finished hat.

I hope this adds to the discussion.

Best, Eric -

 

[Hurricane Jack]

I read a missive from Graham at Optimo a while back that stated he buys a special grade of FEPSA beaver felts where the fur is gathered from the belly area. His claim is that Optimo felts are the best that FEPSA has on offer and only available to him,.

The Optimo 1000 is a blend of pure beaver belly fur & mink, resulting in tighter felting with an even softer hand. I have one & the felt is very light, thin & supple but the brim returns to shape when deflected. I also have an Optimo in 100% beaver that has been properly milled & finished for best quality.

Among my softest hats & best finished are a 1900 - 1910’s BRE with a Fray sweat, 1920’s Exposition Medal Excellent Quality, 1930’s No.1Q Nevadan, 1950’s Dunlap Supreme 4X, Resistol 3X hand felted edge, 2-3 of my 7XCB’s. I would include these two Optimos in that group. I am very impressed with both grades of his felt & product.

 

[Who?]

This is interesting to me. I had no clue that hats age.

 

[Frunobulax]

This is interesting to me. I had no clue that hats age.

Yes, it's a process that can take a few years. Think of it like concrete. The concrete in the Hoover Dam is still curing.

 

[belfastboy]

The Optimo 1000 is a blend of pure beaver belly fur & mink, resulting in tighter felting with an even softer hand. I have one & the felt is very light, thin & supple but the brim returns to shape when deflected. I also have an Optimo in 100% beaver that has been properly milled & finished for best quality.

Among my softest hats & best finished are a 1900 - 1910’s BRE with a Fray sweat, 1920’s Exposition Medal Excellent Quality, 1930’s No.1Q Nevadan, 1950’s Dunlap Supreme 4X, Resistol 3X hand felted edge, 2-3 of my 7XCB’s. I would include these two Optimos in that group. I am very impressed with both grades of his felt & product.

I have yet to visit Chicago (seen O'Hare airport numerous times in transit but never the city) but it is on my list. When I get there a trip to Optimo is at the top of the 'to do' list.

 

[belfastboy]

I have yet to visit Chicago (seen O'Hare airport numerous times in transit but never the city) but it is on my list. When I get there a trip to Optimo is at the top of the 'to do' list.

I have a Winchester beaver/mink blend. The hat is wonderful but I can honestly say there is no discernable indication of the mink part of it. Just a good hat.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

I have a Winchester beaver/mink blend. The hat is wonderful but I can honestly say there is no discernable indication of the mink part of it. Just a good hat.

Maybe it’s the percentage of mink, maybe it’s the knowledge, time & labor that goes into it. Graham says there is no such thing as 100% mink just like there is no such thing as 100% cashmere; both would shrink & draw up rather quickly. Which makes me wonder about Ermine?

I have several Western fedoras & OR’s in 3X. Felt quality & hand run the gamut; there’s no magic cutoff date. We all know that hand felted edges are labor intensive, yet in the examples I listed above Resistol chose a 3X to make a Western fedora with a hand felted edge; Dunlap made a fine Western fedora from a 4X. My Shady Oak Farm Amon Carter is a 3X & better than the average 3X OR. Why weren’t they using a 7X? How were they able to make such great hats after 1950?

 

[belfastboy]

Maybe it’s the percentage of mink, maybe it’s the knowledge, time & labor that goes into it. Graham says there is no such thing as 100% mink just like there is no such thing as 100% cashmere; both would shrink & draw up rather quickly. Which makes me wonder about Ermine?

I have several Western fedoras & OR’s in 3X. Felt quality & hand run the gamut; there’s no magic cutoff date. We all know that hand felted edges are labor intensive, yet in the examples I listed above Resistol chose a 3X to make a Western fedora with a hand felted edge; Dunlap made a fine Western fedora from a 4X. My Shady Oak Farm Amon Carter is a 3X & better than the average 3X OR. Why weren’t they using a 7X? How were they able to make such great hats after 1950?

I have more than once considered buying a beaver/ermine felt just to see......but so far have resisted pulling the trigger.

 

[belfastboy]

Maybe it’s the percentage of mink, maybe it’s the knowledge, time & labor that goes into it. Graham says there is no such thing as 100% mink just like there is no such thing as 100% cashmere; both would shrink & draw up rather quickly. Which makes me wonder about Ermine?

I have several Western fedoras & OR’s in 3X. Felt quality & hand run the gamut; there’s no magic cutoff date. We all know that hand felted edges are labor intensive, yet in the examples I listed above Resistol chose a 3X to make a Western fedora with a hand felted edge; Dunlap made a fine Western fedora from a 4X. My Shady Oak Farm Amon Carter is a 3X & better than the average 3X OR. Why weren’t they using a 7X? How were they able to make such great hats after 1950?

My hatter suggested that as Winchester will not divulge the mink % in the blend his cynical brain chimed in with the thought: A stray mink may have wandered through the felting floor the day they were making the felts so there had to be a few stray mink fibres in the air somewhere.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I’ve had perhaps six Optimo of Chicago fur felt hats. All but one have been the recent gold liner hats made from 100% beaver from FEPSA. All of those hats have shown skill and precision in how they were made. The felt was pounced evenly and the hand was excellent. However, I have not seen an Optimo that I think equals the best vintage hats. The Optimos that I have seen also were in the thick winter weight felt category and not the thinner felt I prefer. I have not had the privilege to examine one the Optimo belly fur hats and doubt that I ever will until I visit Max in Mexico. As nice as the standard 100% beaver felt from Optimo is, I won’t be surprised if the belly fur felt sets a new standard for me.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

My hatter suggested that as Winchester will not divulge the mink % in the blend his cynical brain chimed in with the thought: A stray mink may have wandered through the felting floor the day they were making the felts so there had to be a few stray mink fibres in the air somewhere.

In the throwaway world we live in & with Winchester at full capacity maybe they don’t see the need to pursue it all that much.