Modern custom vs Vintage

[AlanC]

AlanC: Is that the way Indy Magnoli's club ties came about? I was just under the impression he proposed it in the thread itself.

Could be. That was a situation where the vendor himself proposed it. I don't know what clearance he may have had with MK beforehand.

 

[feltfan]

To my mind, if one were able to revive the production of the Cavanagh Edge, then the only reason (besides price) to choose a vintage hat over a modern custom hat would be gone.

Brad! The ONLY reason besides price to choose
a vintage hat over a modern custom hat would be
the Cavanagh Edge? You want to think about that
for a bit? You just wrote that to set me off, right?

So if you wanted a cowboy hat you could find something
as good as a 1920s Clear Nutria hat, made today?

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showpost.php?p=176675&postcount=1

If you wanted a roll up fedora you could find something
as good as a 1950s (or earlier) Borsalino Featherweight?

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showpost.php?p=148982&postcount=1

Remind me who is making a 7X beaver felt like this?

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showpost.php?p=408307&postcount=4

Who is making a hat we can compare to this?

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showpost.php?p=146899&postcount=1

I don't mean to toot my own collection- I can just speak from
experience (and take Douglas and Dinerman's word...).
There are more things in the vast history of hatmaking, Brad,
Than are dreamt of on today's hatmaking benches.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Brad! The ONLY reason besides price to choose
a vintage hat over a modern custom hat would be
the Cavanagh Edge? You want to think about that
for a bit? You just wrote that to set me off, right?

There are more things in the vast history of hatmaking, Brad,
Than are dreamt of on today's hatmaking benches.

Oh my, Feltfan, now I've gone and done it! My obsession always gets the better of me.:eusa_doh:

Note, though, that I did say "To my mind...," so it is merely an opinion that I ascribe to myself, and no one else.

No, I know there is a plethora of wonderful hats that have been made over the last century, many of which would be difficult to be duplicate. For example, I love my very thin Borsalino, and have not compared it to one of Art's featherweights to see what, if any, are the differences.

But, if I (me, personally!) could get a modern Cavanagh Edge, then I would have no problem wearing modern custom hats the rest of my life. That was my point. Depending on the supplier, the other parts of the hat can be as good as anything vintage -- which just leaves the Cavanagh Edge.

The defense rests, your honor.lol

Brad

 

[Delthayre]

Stetson doesn't live here anymore

It's a pity that there are no bespoke felt makers, if that notion even makes sense, to compliment the bespoke hatters who have found a niche for themselves here.

It's a felting art that has fallen out of the standard knowledge base and only a handfull of people are even remotely qualified, with them not having done it for decades. In short, the skill level just isn't there and to bring the talent up to speed would be almost insurmountable.

The most disheartening point to me, which I had not previously considered, is that there are still men alive who have felted edges and might recall the process. If they were all dead and gone it might be less frustrating to know that there wasn't even the faintest hint that such felt bodies might be made again, barring some clever fellow discovering the process anew than to be taunted by the intractable refusals of management.

For all I know, there are some old men in Danbury whistling away their years and all the while looking back fondly upon their days felting edges for one of that hat makers who once were there. That's almost surely naught but faintly poetic exaggeration, but it could be half true. It's a small shame that economic constraints almost certainly preclude any revival of hats with Cavanagh edges.

Mercy knows I'd buy one; in grey with a two and three quarter inch brim, five and a half inch crown in a center crease with front dents and a nineteen to twenty two ligne pleated black or charcoal ribbon.

 

[scotrace]

grey with a two and three quarter inch brim, five and a half inch crown in a center crease with front dents and a nineteen to twenty two ligne pleated black or charcoal ribbon.

Not to single you out in any way, Delthayre, but this perfectly illustrates the burdensome difficulty in producing any kind of "Fedora Lounge Limited Edition" anything. Everyone has a very specific notion of their perfect hat (tie, pin, pants, etc).

 

[J.T.Marcus]

feltfan, Of all the pictures you posted, this is my favorite:

How about a few more, like that, once in a while? :eusa_clap

 

[feltfan]

The defense rests, your honor.lol

I love teasing the fanatics...

 

[feltfan]

How about a few more, like that, once in a while? :eusa_clap

Aw, gee... I figure I'm doing everyone a favor by
not showing my mug. Personally, I think MK should hire
some models to come around and show off our hats.

Actually, I recently coughed up some money to Flickr
and will be posting more hats soon. No promises about
modeling, though. Just in case, I'll start practicing my
Douglas scowl.

 

[AlanC]

Personally, I think MK should hire
some models to come around and show off our hats.

He can't afford my hourly rate.

 

[Jovan]

Not to single you out in any way, Delthayre, but this perfectly illustrates the burdensome difficulty in producing any kind of "Fedora Lounge Limited Edition" anything. Everyone has a very specific notion of their perfect hat (tie, pin, pants, etc).

To be fair, the sheer number of people with their own essential Fedora Lounge club tie was mind boggling. It took a long time to get settled on something.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

This is an interesting thread that deserves some new life. It kind of goes off topic at places, a first for a thread on The Lounge ,but there is a lot of good information and shared opinions.

I own several custom fedoras from at least seven domestic hatters and four European hatters. I have gone the custom route primarily because there are so few vintage hats in my size. I watch the used market pretty darn closely and have done so for years. Great vintage hats in 7 5/8 or 7 3/4 are rare finds. However, I also buy and sell vintage hats in all sizes so I’ve had the chance to experience a lot of them… over 109 this year alone and it’s only September. I also have a collection of maybe 30 vintage hats in my size that I’ve collected. I feel that I’m decently qualified to compare modern custom hats to vintage (1950s and earlier) hats.

When this thread was started there was no mention of FEPSA felt from Portugal or modern Ukrainian felt or even Tonak’s offerings. Today we have more choices. I also acknowledge that we don’t all want the same things from our hats and my gold standard might not be yours. It’s all subjective.

With that out of the way: vintage hats are better. Way better. Just my opinion. The best modern customs are incredible and I’m shock what some skilled hatters can do with modern Winchester and FEPSA felt. I’d say the best modern custom felts are 75-85% as good as the best vintage felt (felt, not hats). This sure doesn’t mean that all hatters using the same raw felt end up with hats with the same quality felt on a finished hat. Not even close. I’ve seen some pretty poor fedoras made from 100% dress weight beaver felt from Winchester, and I’ve seen some spectacular hats made from the same felt.

My critique of modern customs failing to equal their vintage factory made counterparts is the details. Wether it’s a felted brim edge, a sewed in liner, and embroidered liner, intricate debossing, cleaver sweatband designs and attachments, etc., the modern custom fedora usually doesn’t measure up. I think one of the reasons that people are willing to wait three years for a custom hat from Black Sheep is he works on those details and he usually gets them right.

If you want to compare a 1955 Stetson Royal fedora with a modern custom from say Gannon (full disclosure: I’m a HUGE Gannon fan) then the modern custom compares well. When you compare a 1940 Stetson Flagship or a 1920s Dobbs Leisure Light (my first of those arrived today) then things are very different. Even a mid-tier 1940s fedora, or most any 1950-‘60s Borsalino, against a modern custom then we really see light between them. Even a mid 1950s or earlier Twenty from Stetson, Dobbs, Knox, Cavanagh, et al is nicer in every metric I care about than my beloved Gannons. I own six fedora from Art and I prize them as customs that I was able to have created to my specifications (I also have three I bought secondhand), but in a blind test I’m not choosing them over a nicer vintage hat…not even close for me.

If I was a 7 1/8 or smaller I don’t think I’d ever have commissioned a custom hat. At 62.5cm long oval it’s a different story, but I still find vintage hats that fit as well as those made by modern hatters who used a conformateur to get the size and shape of my head. Custom hats let you be in on the creation, and you get to get all the specs just as you want, and it won’t have stains in the felt of dry rot in the sweatband, but for me it also can’t equal a great vintage hat. That’s my opinion based on my experiences and as determined by my preferences in the qualities and attributes of fedoras.

 

[belfastboy]

This is an interesting thread that deserves some new life. It kind of goes off topic at places, a first for a thread on The Lounge ,but there is a lot of good information and shared opinions.

I own several custom fedoras from at least seven domestic hatters and four European hatters. I have gone the custom route primarily because there are so few vintage hats in my size. I watch the used market pretty darn closely and have done so for years. Great vintage hats in 7 5/8 or 7 3/4 are rare finds. However, I also buy and sell vintage hats in all sizes so I’ve had the chance to experience a lot of them… over 109 this year alone and it’s only September. I also have a collection of maybe 30 vintage hats in my size that I’ve collected. I feel that I’m decently qualified to compare modern custom hats to vintage (1950s and earlier) hats.

When this thread was started there was no mention of FEPSA felt from Portugal or modern Ukrainian felt or even Tonak’s offerings. Today we have more choices. I also acknowledge that we don’t all want the same things from our hats and my gold standard might not be yours. It’s all subjective.

With that out of the way: vintage hats are better. Way better. Just my opinion. The best modern customs are incredible and I’m shock what some skilled hatters can do with modern Winchester and FEPSA felt. I’d say the best modern custom felts are 75-85% as good as the best vintage felt (felt, not hats). This sure doesn’t mean that all hatters using the same raw felt end up with hats with the same quality felt on a finished hat. Not even close. I’ve seen some pretty poor fedoras made from 100% dress weight beaver felt from Winchester, and I’ve seen some spectacular hats made from the same felt.

My critique of modern customs failing to equal their vintage factory made counterparts is the details. Wether it’s a felted brim edge, a sewed in liner, and embroidered liner, intricate debossing, cleaver sweatband designs and attachments, etc., the modern custom fedora usually doesn’t measure up. I think one of the reasons that people are willing to wait three years for a custom hat from Black Sheep is he works on those details and he usually gets them right.

If you want to compare a 1955 Stetson Royal fedora with a modern custom from say Gannon (full disclosure: I’m a HUGE Gannon fan) then the modern custom compares well. When you compare a 1940 Stetson Flagship or a 1920s Dobbs Leisure Light (my first of those arrived today) then things are very different. Even a mid-tier 1940s fedora, or most any 1950-‘60s Borsalino, against a modern custom then we really see light between them. Even a mid 1950s or earlier Twenty from Stetson, Dobbs, Knox, Cavanagh, et al is nicer in every metric I care about than my beloved Gannons. I own six fedora from Art and I prize them as customs that I was able to have created to my specifications (I also have three I bought secondhand), but in a blind test I’m not choosing them over a nicer vintage hat…not even close for me.

If I was a 7 1/8 or smaller I don’t think I’d ever have commissioned a custom hat. At 62.5cm long oval it’s a different story, but I still find vintage hats that fit as well as those made by modern hatters who used a conformateur to get the size and shape of my head. Custom hats let you be in on the creation, and you get to get all the specs just as you want, and it won’t have stains in the felt of dry rot in the sweatband, but for me it also can’t equal a great vintage hat. That’s my opinion based on my experiences and as determined by my preferences in the qualities and attributes of fedoras.

You bring up a great point about choice. When I first commissioned a custom hat so many years ago the choice, the only readily available choice, was Winchester felts. Now we are blessed with a much wider array of felts. Winchester is but one offering as FEPSA, Ukraine, Tonak, & South American Nutria are so much more available. All the felts are very good quality and all have different finishes and feel. Ukraine & Winchester tend towards the stiff end of the scale although a hatter with skill can work the felt to fit, somewhat the 'hand' you desire in the felt. FEPSA and Tonak tend to the softer/floppier end of the scale. The FEPSA 95gram 100% beaver is as close to a vintage feel that you can get in a modern felt.....but you pay for that as they are close to double that of Winchester beaver felts.

 

[suitedcboy]

I totally agree with you on the quality of the sewn details and the real silk liners the high line vintage hats have. Ditto on the old felts. I do still wonder what these well made modern customs will be like when they are the same age as the vintage gems. It will be very hard to ever know even if one were to live another 50 years as in almost every case you won't know the past of the vintage hats, i.e., where was it kept, what humidity, what temperature, how much tobacco smoke, etc. Then where are you going to find a VS, Gannon, Northwest, etc. that will see that same use and storage conditions. I have lots of hope based on a 15 to 18 year old VS I have. This 100% beaver VS I bought used 11 years ago that was probably 5 years old then, is aging very well and seems to be climbing the scale to feel like my nearest to a Holy Grail Stetson 7X Clear Beaver Open Road that is a 40s or early 50s. The VS always had the malleable felt and a really nice sweatband but the felt has softened without losing its shape holding ability and the sweat is holding up in spite of seeing real sweat from being worn in Ft Worth in the summer regularly. Art finished this hat with careful stitching likely done on machines that made those vintage gems so the construction quality is great. The one place I have never seen a modern hat come close is the feel and quality of felts that are low or no beaver content. I have an ArtLite VS 100% beaver (obtained from a former regular here, Rabbit) that is a grand hat but it is very well pounced to be a lightweight and I have nothing vintage and beaver to compare it with.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

You bring up a great point about choice. When I first commissioned a custom hat so many years ago the choice, the only readily available choice, was Winchester felts. Now we are blessed with a much wider array of felts. Winchester is but one offering as FEPSA, Ukraine, Tonak, & South American Nutria are so much more available. All the felts are very good quality and all have different finishes and feel. Ukraine & Winchester tend towards the stiff end of the scale although a hatter with skill can work the felt to fit, somewhat the 'hand' you desire in the felt. FEPSA and Tonak tend to the softer/floppier end of the scale. The FEPSA 95gram 100% beaver is as close to a vintage feel that you can get in a modern felt.....but you pay for that as they are close to double that of Winchester beaver felts.

I wouldn’t have thought it possible a few years ago, but my softest, thinnest, most malleable felt with the best hand are some very recently made Winchester beaver and Sunrise nutria felts. The nutria are thicker, not quite as dense, and definitely no where near as malleable as the Winchester beaver. The nutria have a lot of spring back and none of the “molds like clay” quality many of us like. I have three 100% FEPSA beaver custom hats and one 50/50 beaver and rabbit FEPSA custom. The 50/50 is the most malleable of them and the most like vintage felt. None of my customs are anything like the ultra-thin lightweight felt that was a vintage option.

 

[Rmccamey]

It is impossible to know for certain but I wonder how much the felting process, the materials and equipment, and the skills and knowledge of the workers made a difference in the pre-war hats as opposed to modern hats.

 

[jlee562]

My understanding is that the machinery is largely the same.

I do remember one iteration of Optimo's line utilized fur from wild trapped animals, the alternative presumably being farmed. This 1868 treatise on hat making and felting notes that the there is an optimal time of year to collect certain pelts. It also describes the hand felting process, even noting that "hatmaking was long considered a business to which machinery could not be applied."

On a side note, the author also decries the quality of contemporaneous hats, but also that it was improving somewhat thanks to the then recent introduction of mercury to the caroting process. The author also seems distressed that "the crowns and brims having been in all possible styles since the early period. It would appear nothing is left for the present and all coming time but the revival of what has already been..."

Brad Bowers notes in his Winchester factory tour video that bodies used to be stored and aged for several months to several years for the felt to stabilize. So between the mercury and the aging we have at least two objective ways that the average pre-war hat would have differed from the average modern hat (these are obviously very broad generalizations).

The most vintage-like hats I have are: Excellent Quality Stetson Fortune and Glory, Artlite Playboy, homebrew Cypress FEPSA beaver, and my beaver blend 2011 Optimo Dillinger, which aged into a much nicer feeling felt than when I first got it as far as stiffness goes. But I am also spoiled by having my refurb pre-war Stetsons. I was so amazed when I creased the Columbia with no steam whatsoever. We just don't get that anymore.

I would love to get my hands on Optimo's silverbelly felts. I presume those must also have very desirable qualities. I think FEPSA is keeping them exclusive to Optimo though.....

 

[deadlyhandsome]

It is impossible to know for certain but I wonder how much the felting process, the materials and equipment, and the skills and knowledge of the workers made a difference in the pre-war hats as opposed to modern hats.

Not only was there an economy of scale and people who were second and third generation hat makers at the big factories, there was competition. There was fierce competition for a lot of money that drove innovations. There was real motivation to make better felt, the desire to make better felt and hats drove the industry. There were all sorts of niches to be filled and price points to be covered, but constant effort to out-do the competition was a serious force.

Those times also had an educated hat wearing population who could recognize and would pay for better hats. I’d suspect that most of the current hat buying population would not only not appreciate the nuanced differences they would actually prefer the qualities of cheaper felt and cheaper hats. Stetson’s effort to reintroduce open crown hats was a sad commentary on the hat buying public: they wanted cheaper quality hats with machine pressed creases. I wonder if most custom fedora customers also don’t want what I’d consider to be a superior hat with superior felt. It’s easy to forget that The Fedora Lounge represents only a small section of hat buyers, including those who buy custom fedoras.

 

[Edward]

Not to single you out in any way, Delthayre, but this perfectly illustrates the burdensome difficulty in producing any kind of "Fedora Lounge Limited Edition" anything. Everyone has a very specific notion of their perfect hat (tie, pin, pants, etc).

Alas, yes.... though having missed my chance, I would so love to be able to pick up one of the ties if another run were done. I did like that as a subtle touch.

 

[ILB Frank]

As is being implied in several posts (if not outright stated), vintage felt that is soft and malleable is something that improves as the felt ages. We handle vintage felt today (after it has aged 70-100+ years) and declare that it is superior in everyway to even the best custom hat made today. What we don't know is, what did that hat feel like when it was new? For instance, I have a Stetson Catera (5X - 100% fur felt - likely rabbit) I purchased new in May 2021. When I got it, it was hard as a rock. one year later, after being reshaped a few times using water and steam and handled several times, it is getting pretty soft. I can almost dry crease it to some extent. Similar story to a 100% beaver hat that was custom made just at one year ago. I pulled it out of the box yesterday and it is noticeably softer than when it showed up on my doorstep. So, what will these hats be like in 5-10 years? I am just talking about the felt and the stiffeners used in the felt.

As Brent indicated in his thread bump post, "To each his own" on what makes a hat great. So to my mind (based on what I think I'm learning on this forum), the felt is probably the hardest thing to assess when judging the quality of a new hat to vintage hat (what will either of my hats felt be like in another 70 years). Although, the other things are likely much easier to judge: A comfortable and durable sweatband likely being first and foremost on a daily hat wearers checklist. I could go on from there about the liners, the Cavanaugh edge, etc. but others have certainly discussed those features in previous posts.

This post is either food for thought or indicates that I need to go back to school and learn much more on vintage hats (if so, please let me know that).

 

[belfastboy]

My understanding is that the machinery is largely the same.

I do remember one iteration of Optimo's line utilized fur from wild trapped animals, the alternative presumably being farmed. This 1868 treatise on hat making and felting notes that the there is an optimal time of year to collect certain pelts. It also describes the hand felting process, even noting that "hatmaking was long considered a business to which machinery could not be applied."

On a side note, the author also decries the quality of contemporaneous hats, but also that it was improving somewhat thanks to the then recent introduction of mercury to the caroting process. The author also seems distressed that "the crowns and brims having been in all possible styles since the early period. It would appear nothing is left for the present and all coming time but the revival of what has already been..."

Brad Bowers notes in his Winchester factory tour video that bodies used to be stored and aged for several months to several years for the felt to stabilize. So between the mercury and the aging we have at least two objective ways that the average pre-war hat would have differed from the average modern hat (these are obviously very broad generalizations).

The most vintage-like hats I have are: Excellent Quality Stetson Fortune and Glory, Artlite Playboy, homebrew Cypress FEPSA beaver, and my beaver blend 2011 Optimo Dillinger, which aged into a much nicer feeling felt than when I first got it as far as stiffness goes. But I am also spoiled by having my refurb pre-war Stetsons. I was so amazed when I creased the Columbia with no steam whatsoever. We just don't get that anymore.

I would love to get my hands on Optimo's silverbelly felts. I presume those must also have very desirable qualities. I think FEPSA is keeping them exclusive to Optimo though.....

I read a missive from Graham at Optimo a while back that stated he buys a special grade of FEPSA beaver felts where the fur is gathered from the belly area. His claim is that Optimo felts are the best that FEPSA has on offer and only available to him,. In terms of 'aging' the felts at the factory.....these days all factories are shipping out what they have as fast as they can and can't keep up with their customers needs. The days of 'aging' a felt are long gone I would imagine.

As is being implied in several posts (if not outright stated), vintage felt that is soft and malleable is something that improves as the felt ages. We handle vintage felt today (after it has aged 70-100+ years) and declare that it is superior in everyway to even the best custom hat made today. What we don't know is, what did that hat feel like when it was new? For instance, I have a Stetson Catera (5X - 100% fur felt - likely rabbit) I purchased new in May 2021. When I got it, it was hard as a rock. one year later, after being reshaped a few times using water and steam and handled several times, it is getting pretty soft. I can almost dry crease it to some extent. Similar story to a 100% beaver hat that was custom made just at one year ago. I pulled it out of the box yesterday and it is noticeably softer than when it showed up on my doorstep. So, what will these hats be like in 5-10 years? I am just talking about the felt and the stiffeners used in the felt.

As Brent indicated in his thread bump post, "To each his own" on what makes a hat great. So to my mind (based on what I think I'm learning on this forum), the felt is probably the hardest thing to assess when judging the quality of a new hat to vintage hat (what will either of my hats felt be like in another 70 years). Although, the other things are likely much easier to judge: A comfortable and durable sweatband likely being first and foremost on a daily hat wearers checklist. I could go on from there about the liners, the Cavanaugh edge, etc. but others have certainly discussed those features in previous posts.

This post is either food for thought or indicates that I need to go back to school and learn much more on vintage hats (if so, please let me know that).

I have custom hats dating back a few years, 40 years is the oldest. Some 10 year old ones have softened up while others at 20 - 40 years old have not softened appreciably. So it would appear the answer as it is in most things....'It depends!'