Making a Western hat by hand?

[deadlyhandsome]

As we use our hats differently we value different attributes. I have modern 100% beaver western felt hats made by some excellent hatters. I’ve asked hatters to duplicate the vintage felt qualities and I’ve been told it can’t be done for love or money. I respect and trust their opinions, but don’t expect others to just take my word.

I might change my opinion on the current felt quality if I was on horseback and in the wind. I also gravitate to the smaller brimmed westerns including dress westerns. My favorite brim widths are between 3 and 3.5 inches so perhaps the advantages of a stiffer felt are lost on me.

@Yahoody, my one small bone of contention is your dismissing the less stiff vintage felt I and others like as cheap or “bad felt.” It was some of the most expensive dense felt made and from an era of much better quality hat making, and it certainly wasn’t stiff. If you find what many of us would consider to be grail hats to be a “POS hat” and “subpar and unusable,” then we just live in two different worlds. I wouldn’t think of calling one of your hats a “POS,” and realize it’s just a different style for a different use.

I’m also not trying to convert anyone. I appreciate all sorts of hat styles and types. I can appreciate most anything that is well-made. I enjoy and wear fedoras, homburgs, Panamas, and a range of westerns. I also like caps and even own a few berets. I do, however, have preferences, and I prefer most hats to not be stiff.

 

[Gobi]

The expectations for a hat do vary widely. They vary widely for me. I love a fedora to have the malleable felt and to have that soft as a baby's behind feel. I always wear my fedoras snapped but stiff would not work for a snap brim fedora. I want my western hats that I use outdoors to be stiff and stay on my head. I can't keep a wide brimmed western hat on my head in the wind here or when riding a horse at a brisk pace if it is floppy. If the brim flopped down and obscured my vision I'd be pissed. Yahoody can speak to this better, but any flat brimmed Great Basin buckaroo hat I have ever handled at a hatter 's place in that part of the country were stiff brimmed for brim control. The custom hats I have gotten in the last 10 years all have a dense felt but I'm unsure as to what degree they were fired or if they were stiff from the felt supplier (pretty sure it would be Winchester) or stiffened by the hatter. I have done some shallac brim stiffening on a couple of them. All of these hats are 4 1/2 inch brim to 5 inch brim. The wider the brim, the stiffer they need to be to work for me. I have a few beaver westerns that are not as stiff but they are not my horse riding hats but I still want them enough to hold brim shape that I like and to not be floppy in the wind when worn as a dress hat. I have a Bandora vintage western and a Stetson 100 vintage western and they are fedora like in feel and are thin felts. They are fine like they are. I wouldn't ride in either or wear them if going out on a windy day. Gobi, how recent is your experience with the custom beaver hats?

That was about 10 years ago.


Yahoody, have you ever tried baking a body in an oven? Just curious. Also curious what would happen if a hat body went through a torrification process like they use for roasting woods for guitar making. You "bake" in a vacuum or an oxygen free oven which prevents anything from catching fire. My guess is you'd have to take it easy otherwise you'd end up with hard and brittle felt that would crumble.
I'm also curious how much more dense you could felt a body by extended ironing. Adding water and repeating over and over.

 

[belfastboy]

That was about 10 years ago.


Yahoody, have you ever tried baking a body in an oven? Just curious. Also curious what would happen if a hat body went through a torrification process like they use for roasting woods for guitar making. You "bake" in a vacuum or an oxygen free oven which prevents anything from catching fire. My guess is you'd have to take it easy otherwise you'd end up with hard and brittle felt that would crumble.
I'm also curious how much more dense you could felt a body by extended ironing. Adding water and repeating over and over.

In Ermatinger's Scientific Hat book he places the hat in a smoker. I will have to dig up my copy and reread that section. I am going to experiment with dyeing and in the process refelting the fur body. I need to find out how much is toooo much.

 

[Gobi]

In Ermatinger's Scientific Hat book he places the hat in a smoker. I will have to dig up my copy and reread that section. I am going to experiment with dyeing and in the process refelting the fur body. I need to find out how much is toooo much.

Well now I want to put an old hat body in my smoker. More so to see the look on my girlfriend's face when I open it up. Or the look on the neighbor's face when I put it in.

 

[belfastboy]

Well now I want to put an old hat body in my smoker. More so to see the look on my girlfriend's face when I open it up. Or the look on the neighbor's face when I put it in.

The downside if you use mesquite is you will be walking around hungry whenever you wear that particular hat.

 

[Yahoody]

Yahoody, have you ever tried baking a body in an oven? Just curious. Also curious what would happen if a hat body went through a torrification process like they use for roasting woods for guitar making......

No. Fastest way to kill a good felt is heat. My impression is you are over thinking this. Even the best felt, well taken care of, but hard used won't last forever. You can wreck a decent felt with just the heat from a hand sanding block. Why accelerate its demise?

 

[Yahoody]

"Yahoody, my one small bone of contention is your dismissing the less stiff vintage felt I and others like as cheap or “bad felt.” It was some of the most expensive dense felt made and from an era of much better quality hat making, and it certainly wasn’t stiff. If you find what many of us would consider to be grail hats to be a “POS hat” and “subpar and unusable,” then we just live in two different worlds. I wouldn’t think of calling one of your hats a “POS,” and realize it’s just a different style for a different use."

Deadly, my apologies for being so blunt and ungentlemanly in my responses. Of course folks have different uses for hats all the way from fashion to simply another required tool you rely on and use every day.

3 or 3.5" brims don't offer a lot of protection for my own use. But I can understand why you might like a softer felt body in that size of hat. I just don't have any use for a soft felt hat. That doesn't mean they don't have a use. But we'll have to agree to disagree on what the "best" felt is now or then.

In the "western" world I live in today most wouldn't consider a 3.5" hat much of a western hat. Usable "Cowboy hats" typically start @ a 4" brim today. I own 3 of the 3.5" hats, all 100% beaver and all have 6" open crowns. One might ask why? My Great Grandfather was part of the Land Rush in OK Terr. and lived in the IT many years prior.

Pretty common hat style in the mid 1890s. Folks wanted to get out of the dirt and be respectable. Smaller hats were part of that self image of becoming more genteel, more civilized. I like trying things he tried. I still use a good bit of his horse tack even today.

But the smaller brimmed hats? The classic Stetson "Open Road" is that same mentality IMO, a western hat cut down and acceptable for city use. Wearing one originally told folks where your roots were or at least where you wanted them to be. And just as important, that you could afford a nice hat. You had arrived.

I generally use those small brim hats the most in winter when the sun is low mid day and on those days when I know things are likely to go bad. Or the flip side, the nice ones for when I want to dress up some, look like a 1890s Okie, and still easily get in and out of the truck

This is a horse that is not happy about being ridden.

Any way, yes we all have uses for a hat. My opinions as to what makes/or how to make a decent "western" hat is based solely on what works for me. Most simply don't fully understand how a "working" western hat gets used or just how important it is to the owner, for his comfort and for his safety. When you have spent the time to block and then pelt a nice beaver blank one of the last things I do is trim the brim. To me, it seems an awful waste to cut down a big brim brimmed hat. Tearful in fact, knowing how hard a 5" brim is to come by these days.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Deadly, my apologies for being so blunt and ungentlemanly in my responses. Of course folks have different uses for hats all the way from fashion to simply another required tool you rely on and use every day.

3 or 3.5" brims don't offer a lot of protection for my own use. But I can understand why you might like a softer felt body in that size of hat. I just don't have any use for a soft felt hat. That doesn't mean they don't have a use. But we'll have to agree to disagree on what the "best" felt is now or then.

In the "western" world I live in today most wouldn't consider a 3.5" hat much of a western hat. Usable "Cowboy hats" typically start @ a 4" brim today. I own 3 of the 3.5" hats, all 100% beaver and all have 6" open crowns. One might ask why? My Great Grandfather was part of the Land Rush in OK Terr. and lived in the IT many years prior.

Pretty common hat style in the mid 1890s. Folks wanted to get out of the dirt and be respectable. Smaller hats were part of that self image of becoming more genteel, more civilized. I like trying things he tried. I still use a good bit of his horse tack even today. But the smaller brimmed hats?
The classic Stetson "Open Road" is that same mentality IMO, a western hat cut down and acceptable for city use. Wearing one originally told folks where your roots were or at least where you wanted them to be. And that you could afford a nice hat. You had arrived.

I generally use those small brim hats the most in winter when the sun is low and on the days when I know things are likely to go bad. Or the flip side, when I want to dress up some and still easily get in and out of the truck

This is a horse that is not happy about being ridden.

Any way, yes we all have uses for a hat. My opinions as to what makes/or how to make a decent "western" hat is based solely on what works for me. Most simply don't fully understand how a "working" western hat gets used or just how important it is to the owner, for his comfort and for his safety. When you have spent the time to block and then pelt a nice beaver blank one of the last things I do is trim the brim. To me, it seems an awful waste to cut down a big brim brimmed hat. Tearful in fact, knowing how hard a 5" brim is to come by these days.

We both got our backs up a bit, and it’s generally good to feel passionate about the things you like.

I’ve never cared much for replicating a look (Indy, Bogart, etc,), but I wear what I think looks best on me. As time has gone one I’ve gravitated toward bigger brims for both the aesthetics and for sun protection. For my location, exposure, and activities, a 3 1/4 to 3 1/2 inch brim does a pretty good job. The larger brims would offer more protection, but they get in my way, and if I’m honest, even more important to me they don’t look as good on me. I suppose it’s vanity.

The Stetson Clear Beaver/Clear Nutria hats, and the later Stetson One-Hundred all seemed to come in shorter brims. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one that’s “even” four inches. My 1950s One-Hundred is 3 1/2 inches and it’s one of the widest brims I’ve seen. It doesn’t look like a “town hat” to my eye, but it’s certainly not an ideal working hat. Perhaps that’s the real difference: I think of westerns as a style and you think of the as a tool. I get functionality out of them, but it’s the style I’m really going for. I don’t get too excited about the Open Road (OR) as with my large head size the brim on them looks too small and out of proportion. However, I think the OR looks great in the smaller sizes. Still the emphasis on looks over function.

This is, I think, the largest brim I currently own. It’s a recently acquired Resistol Chute 5 with a brim just under five inches. It’s very stiff as it has to be to support the brim:

On me it’s more of a novelty than a hat. It’s definitely a case of the hat wearing me rather than me wearing the hat. My daughter in Montana saw a photo of me wearing this hat and her response was “Good gravy, that man’s 70% hat.”

I guess it’s all a case of form following function and our hats are for different functions. I very much admire your hat making and your photography. Your hats look absolutely perfect in perspective with your setting. No hard feelings.

 

[Yahoody]

Thank you Sir. As always, a good discussion.

Chute is a nice hat. Channeling JW there I see It is hat I have thought more than one about buying. Only the quality of the felt has kept me away. And no question, a 4.5"+ inch brim is BIG on anyone.

A short story for you.

Last week. And frankly can't remember now who was misbehaving, dogs or horses. But it certainly was one of the 8 miscreants we have running around the place. It is seldom that I loose my hat in the wind, or on a horse. But is is not all that uncommon to have my hat be the only object handy enough to throw at a over protective momma cow, and unrepentant horse or a misbehaving dog. Haven't thrown a hat at my wife in 30 years so guess she is likely safe.

The reason I remember last week, was my wife, standing right beside me when I most recently chucked my hat in discuss at one of the other critters we share the place with, commented, "Did you just throw your hat!!??"

Of course I did. And every little beaver that is hiding in it as well And the most obvious reason why I eventually took up building my own hats.

Vanity? The end result of a good wreck. Sitting there, not able to stand, not knowing I had a broken pelvis and internal injuries. It would be two years before I could walk right again. Hard to believe I didn't loose my hat!

 

[Gobi]

No. Fastest way to kill a good felt is heat. My impression is you are over thinking this. Even the best felt, well taken care of, but hard used won't last forever. You can wreck a decent felt with just the heat from a hand sanding block. Why accelerate its demise?

So heat kills felt but fire makes it better?
Maybe you could explain a little more. What I'm guessing you mean is prolonged heat is bad whereas a quick burn changes the felt for the better? I'm just trying to better grasp what you are saying. Typically when I've seen hats lit on fire, it's more for a better finish, burning off all the little hair fibers that stick up. I have never heard of this being used as a method to change the structure of the felt.
Ironing crowns and brims is a standard practice in hat making. Is that damaging the felt?

I can see where a working cowboy would desire a stiff hat as you have explained. For my use, soft does just fine. The only time I have to battle animals with my hat is scaring the chickens into the pen every night.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Thank you Sir. As always, a good discussion.

Chute is a nice hat. Channeling JW there I see It is hat I have thought more than one about buying. Only the quality of the felt has kept me away. And no question, a 4.5"+ inch brim is BIG on anyone.

A short story for you.

Last week. And frankly can't remember now who was misbehaving, dogs or horses. But it certainly was one of the 8 miscreants we have running around the place. It is seldom that I loose my hat in the wind, or on a horse. But is is not all that uncommon to have my hat be the only object handy enough to throw at a over protective momma cow, and unrepentant horse or a misbehaving dog. Haven't thrown a hat at my wife in 30 years so guess she is likely safe.

The reason I remember last week, was my wife, standing right beside me when I most recently chucked my hat in discuss at one of the other critters we share the place with, commented, "Did you just throw your hat!!??"

Of course I did. And every little beaver that is hiding in it as well And the most obvious reason why I eventually took up building my own hats.

Vanity? The end result of a good wreck. Sitting there, not able to stand, not knowing I had a broken pelvis and internal injuries. It would be two years before I could walk right again. Hard to believe I didn't loose my hat!

View attachment 256481

I got that Chute 5 pretty cheap on eBay. It was new, open crown, flat brim, but it was missing the ribbon treatment. The rattlesnake hatband seemed like a no-brainer. Actually, I’m surprised at how much weight the snakeskin adds to the hat, but I still like how it turned out. Even with the custom hatband I’m into it for less than half the retail price for the hat. If I were to do it again I’d go with a thinner snakeskin (they’ll make them any length or width you want as long as the snake will allow for it).

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Last veer from topic:

I did buy this 5” brimmed hat that has my kind of felt, but the wide brim was too much of a good thing. I sent it off to my favorite hatter to have it reblocked to a 6 1/2” tall crown (up from 5 1/2”) and up from a size 7 3/8 to a size 7 3/4. I hope that the changes to the crown will eat up enough brim width to get me where I want to be; otherwise, I’ll have to have the brim trimmed down and new binding sewn on. @Yahoody you would not like this felt
This hat will also have a snakeskin hatband and will hopefully be more similar to the hat John Wayne wore in The Shootist and a few earlier movies. Wayne’s hat in those movies, one of his personal hats, wasn’t a hard felt, but definitely denser and higher quality than my Walden. This is another hat that won’t see a lot of use, but it’s a lot of fun and will remind me of my youth and watching westerns with my father and grandfather.

The Walden as I received it before sending it to my hatter:

 

[Yahoody]

No question one of JW's personal hats or at least a prop hat they kept around for him specifically anyway as he used it in several movies.

And no question it wasn't anything solid.

Take a look at 1:01 in this video

 

[Yahoody]

So heat kills felt but fire makes it better?
What I'm guessing you mean is prolonged heat is bad whereas a quick burn changes the felt for the better? Ironing crowns and brims is a standard practice in hat making.

Is that damaging the felt?

Long term heat, like inside a car will shrink and kill your felt. Burning a hat takes if from a "live" felt to "dead" felt in hatter's terms. Ironing continues the felting process. Any heating of a felt is an art form not science. Too much heat and you'll get more than you bargained for. Too much is strictly defined by that particular felt body.

A quick alcohol flame felts the hat tighter. Too much heat, too much alcohol or too long a burn time and you'll have problems. I don't "burn" a hat to get a fine finish. I do that while pelting with different grits on the sanding block and the final touch adding a natural oil (typically a super secret mixture starting with baby oil back to the felt to recondition it, if you want to do that. Depends on the finished felt for me to decide one way or the other on additional oil. Oil makes the felt "soft" again and resilient to a point, which some obviously greatly admire.

Oil is normally considered a cosmetic fix to uneven coloring and to add that super soft hand. I want a finely finished felt with a good smooth and silky feel. I also want a stiff hat and brim. I don't care about the cosmetics of the felt or matching colors or hiding a sanding mark. Oiling done right might add some initial water resistance and make the hat harder to clean when it is time I'd bet. Either way it isn't worth the trade offs for me.

 

[Yahoody]

One of my favorite hats. RJ Preston traditional felt, sugar loaf, sombrero. Pretty easy to see how the Mexicans stiffened their felt. More of these hats went north to Montana on Gringo's heads than any early felt, simply because the protected the owner and easily lasted a year on the trail.

 

[M Brown]

This is maybe the best hat thread I've ever seen.

 

[belfastboy]

Rands Custom Western hats out of Billings published a cowboy hat book. It is a thin book but great fun showing many examples of historic western hat styles....westerns, movies, presidents. A good read.

 

[Yahoody]

The rattlesnake hatband seemed like a no-brainer. Actually, I’m surprised at how much weight the snakeskin adds to the hat, but I still like how it turned out. Even with the custom hatband I’m into it for less than half the retail price for the hat. If I were to do it again I’d go with a thinner snakeskin (they’ll make them any length or width you want as long as the snake will allow for it).

Haven't handled a snake in 30+ years. Was some fun to impress the tourists (girls) though As a kid, 7 or 8 years old here, we'd catch rattlers, kill'um, skin them and tan the hides with salt and sun. Cisco to soften them up again. Didn't take long as it was always a "summer project" and more, than one and done, in a summer. Likely a full year prior before I got a proper felt hat. 6 7/8 Resistol. Trip to town and a big deal when I did. I wear a 7.5 with a pig shave now. Luckily I never saw JW's snake hat band! Mom likely wouldn't have been happy wit that accessory.

I needed a proper hat...but I always had a hat tanks to Grandpa! And given some time, eventually boots

8 or 9 here with my prized hat and horse. Rebuilt/reblocked that hat many times as a kid. Necessity finds a way. Wore the hat until it was stolen spring of my Sr. year in high school. The bastards. I built a nice beaver duplicate of its last iteration a few years ago. It sits in my office now.

 

[Yahoody]

 

[Yahoody]

Really good video on hat making from JR's shop.

https://www.jwrhats.com/make-your-own-hat/