Made in America. Stayed in America.

[Heiko]

Could Nike really be said to be American any more? It's a global brand that sort of floats above any geographic location - it's HQ may be Oregon but it's got 700 factories around the world, and I should imagine its tax affairs are so amorphous and labyrinthine that you'll find the Minotaur wondering around in them. Giving Nike money is, I think, just giving Nike money, very few others benefit.

I did make the point that the 'value' assigned to quality is in part a marketing ploy, but on the other hand, if I can show you exactly how I go about making something, where the raw materials come from, the time it takes to make and how I arrive at the price I charge, then it's pretty fair to say that the value the quality it holds is going to be high.

Your mention of buying a bespoke suit is interesting because your decision must have come from a similar value choice: you could've bought a Boateng or Ede and Ravenscroft off the peg, and objectively it could have looked just as nice, but you chose to go with the handmade because you must have made some value judgement on the quality of one over the other - the fact it didn't quite work out for you on that occasion doesn't mean your judgement was wrong or that the general principle isn't valid, it was just bad luck; though you had the option to ask the shop to correct the stitching.

Technically, Nike is an American company. Whatever tiny amount it pays in taxes does go to a certain government, many multinationals are American--whether their reach and influence transcend the country of origin is a different discussion. In any event, giving Alden or Aero money doesn't really benefit a whole lot of a people either. I would say more people benefit from Nike profits than Aero profits--but also a lot more people get mistreated by Nike than they do by Aero.

I commissioned some bespoke because I have a small frame not because I love the bespoke process of "quality". I am more vain about fit than label. Hand made products always have various issues: looping threads and not so perfect stitching are considered a part of the magic of hand made. Point was, raw materials and labour can be expensive but for a lot of luxury goods they are needlessly expensive--just to cater to a certain price point. Unless you have a name like Tom Ford firms will have to create reasons why their goods cost x amount more. It isn't always about quality, actually it more often isn't.

 

[Feraud]

Doesn't anyone have a problem with Ralph Lauren's RRL label making its hugely expensive American heritage 'unionmade' clothing in China for next to nothing. I personally am happy to pay a premium to buy USA made Redwing boots over their Chinese made ones in order to get both the higher quality and support fairly paid and union protected workers. This is not a nationalistic issue but rather one about companies being able to sidestep the west's workers hard earned rights by just moving somewhere where the local workers aren't protected. I don't want to see the west's workers all unemployed because they cannot compete with exploitative and dangerous sweatshops. Once places like China have the same workers rights, conditions nad union protection etc (as in manufacturing costs) as the west I'll be happy to buy from them.
I can see why the budget clothing brands make stuff for pennies abroad as they also sell it for very little too. But RRL boots cost more than USA made redwings. please correct me if I'm wrong but thats just greed on Mr laurens part I reckon. Just a thought.

Great point. Putting on a "'Merican Heritage" mask doesn't excuse the company for sidestepping labor laws and producing goods in sweatshops.

 

[Heiko]

Great point. Putting on a "'Merican Heritage" mask doesn't excuse the company for sidestepping labor laws and producing goods in sweatshops.

Sidestepping, eh? You wouldn't know anything about that....

China has a different standard of life at the moment, to say it is ok to purchase Chinese products only when they are all unionized and what not is silly (not to mention self defeating, just try to not purchase Chinese or Taiwanese). I doubt Aero workers have a union--that doesn't stop people from purchasing from them.

Not all firms are sweatshops either, although I wouldn't want my kids working there....Pt is large companies with Chinese manufacturing better be well priced or else they have no utility whatsoever.

 

[Edward]

There are some things improve when made elsewhere, of course. The Japanese are building better, more consistent Gretsches than ever the US did.

 

[Feraud]

Sidestepping, eh? You wouldn't know anything about that....

Nope, I have no agenda and no reason to sidestep. I'm also not stupid enough to be baited into senseless arguments.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Lets see...
Globalization includes established companies moving out of the U.S. and other home countries seeking cheap labor that the original 'home laborers' can't compete with. Product prices are not lowered with the move but the new workforce is lucky to get a quarter of the previous wages and working conditions are of little concern. However..if the product is of same or better quality..what's the problem..no skin off my nose. Interesting evaluation.
HD

 

[Sloan1874]

In any event, giving Alden or Aero money doesn't really benefit a whole lot of a people either. I would say more people benefit from Nike profits than Aero profits--but also a lot more people get mistreated by Nike than they do by Aero.

Unless you're a share-holder or exec in Nike or one of the chemical companies who supply them, I doubt anyone really benefits from them. I could sit you down with a map of the world and show you the companies and institutions that are connected and benefit from Aero etc. Your point about mistreating people is an important one - even if the measurable reach of their 'benefit' isn't colossal, the good treatment of their people is commendable, especially in a time of economic hardship - I'm sure ELC, Bill Kelso, Schott etc are acting similarly, but I can only talk with any knowledge about Aero, who have just taken on students from the local textile college.

I commissioned some bespoke because I have a small frame not because I love the bespoke process of "quality". I am more vain about fit than label.

I would recommend semi-bespoke. I'm a size 36 and had some five or six suits made for me using the 'semi-skimmed' route - you get your choice of cloths and linings, the suit is done mechanically but the fit is fixed by hand (I had a problem with the back that was fixed with a bit of tailors chalk and a bit altering).

Hand made products always have various issues: looping threads and not so perfect stitching are considered a part of the magic of hand made. Point was, raw materials and labour can be expensive but for a lot of luxury goods they are needlessly expensive--just to cater to a certain price point. Unless you have a name like Tom Ford firms will have to create reasons why their goods cost x amount more. It isn't always about quality, actually it more often isn't.

In the end, you're paying not for just somebody's time and skill, but the ability to go back and demand that they get it right. I've always thought that the bespoke bill is as much about the after-sales service. If I've paid upwards of a couple of grand for something, they have an obligation to get it right and to maintain it. Which reminds me, I should really look at my old suits and see if they can be renovated.

 

[IXL]

As for me, I expect, say, a Nikon professional camera to be of a certain quality. To my knowledge "Japanese heritage" isn't a consideration either for buying, or for marketing these cameras. It is simply a matter of quality, and whether or not Nikon actually has components, or even the entire camera produced in Eastern Europe, Iceland, China, or Mexico doesn't affect much as long as Nikon can be counted on to ensure the quality of the products they sell.
However, I would be quite disappointed to find out a jacket purchased from Lewis Leathers was really made in Bangladesh. Not because I have anything against Bangladesh, but because I expect a Lewis Leathers product to BE
British: Fish&chips, Big Ben, changing of the guard, Old World English charms,God save the Queen, hedgerows, cheerio, Lewis Leathers, etc. You know,every uninformed and ignorant cliche someone from Oklahoma might believe about Merry Old England. Did I mention stout?
If my L.L. jacket wasn't produced in England, I would view it as a bit of a fraud, as they advertise the very British nature of the product. The fact that a foreign import might well be of equal quality would not matter because what I would want with a purchase is to have a small piece of "England", to have some small emotional kinship with the tradition of the British rockers, and with the history of the brand.
If all I wanted was a quality jacket and counted on a particular brand only to provide a quality product, I don't suppose I would much care where the item was actually sourced from as long as it was up to high standards.
Were I to buy a sword of the Japanese Samurai style, I might not care if it were produced in New York, but if I intend to purchase a Japanese Samurai sword, from a company in Japan who markets Japanese craftsmanship and quality, this is what I would expect, and not a product of Schenectady.
I would also expect a Rolex watch to be Swiss-made. A Casio? Who cares, as it is just a good quality timekeeping device and Casio does not market these as being anything other than good watches. I do not want Amish furniture to say "Made in China." The reason to buy Amish is to actually get Amish.
So I guess it all depends on the product and whether or not there is generally some type of "national/regional" tie-in to that product.
That's my $23.98 worth

 

[Sloan1874]

IXL makes a good point: as irrational as it seems, on the FL, provenance counts big time, and it's damn hard to reproduce. You can look on it as irrational or ridiculous, but we want to know that the jackets or whatever item have been produced by people who really care about them, that they understand that what they do really matters to the people who buy them: just look at the consternation caused by Good Wear when they raised the prices, that's as much to do with the fact that a lot of people realised they'd been priced out of their range than any logical response.
This place, as much as anything, is about the appreciation of skill, talent and art. We may voice varying opinions about the stuff we see, but there is always respect shown for the craftsmanship put into it. It's what gets a buzz going: one guy who's decided that he's going to reproduce Irivin flying jackets or A-2s, that's cool, show us what you've got, we may buy it! Telling me that Ralph Lauren produce as good a quality A-2 as ELC doesn't do it for me, because I know it's never going to have the same personal investment.
So, and here we reach the rub, Heiko, to come on to the FL and say 'you're all mad for caring about this kind of thing' is to fundamentally miss the point of p;ace. We really care about this stuff. You may think it's stupid and parochial, and you're welcome to you're view, but this is what flies around here.
Now, I don't apply this to every aspect of my life, that would get really boring, and anyway, who would want to brush their teeth with a horsehair toothbrush, but I when I'm in here, talking to other FL-ers, I know I'm on the same level and what they're about. It's not logic, it's feel, and it's what makes great art, music and design.

 

[ButteMT61]

IXL makes a good point: as irrational as it seems, on the FL, provenance counts big time, and it's damn hard to reproduce. You can look on it as irrational or ridiculous, but we want to know that the jackets or whatever item have been produced by people who really care about them, that they understand that what they do really matters to the people who buy them: just look at the consternation caused by Good Wear when they raised the prices, that's as much to do with the fact that a lot of people realised they'd been priced out of their range than any logical response. This place, as much as anything, is about the appreciation of skill, talent and art. We may voice varying opinions about the stuff we see, but there is always respect shown for the craftsmanship put into it. It's what gets a buzz going: one guy who's decided that he's going to reproduce Irivin flying jackets or A-2s, that's cool, show us what you've got, we may buy it! Telling me that Ralph Lauren produce as good a quality A-2 as ELC doesn't do it for me, because I know it's never going to have the same personal investment.So, and here we reach the rub, Heiko, to come on to the FL and say 'you're all mad for caring about this kind of thing' is to fundamentally miss the point of p;ace. We really care about this stuff. You may think it's stupid and parochial, and you're welcome to you're view, but this is what flies around here. Now, I don't apply this to every aspect of my life, that would get really boring, and anyway, who would want to brush their teeth with a horsehair toothbrush, but I when I'm in here, talking to other FL-ers, I know I'm on the same level and what they're about. It's not logic, it's feel, and it's what makes great art, music and design.

Precisely, exactly 100% correct. If a jacket (or boots or belts or wallets) could be made to look exactly like an item from known vendors in some soulless factory in India, or China, or Russia I'd not buy it, even for less money. I do in fact care about how something is made. Nothing stupid about it.

 

[nick123]

If you can guarantee the people who made your product are passionate about what they make, you just feel better.
"Stitch on your mall A-2 came loose?...and the receipts older than 30 days?...Forget about it".
versus
"I'm sorry your thread came loose. I know you feel like the ship is sinking, but we'll go down with you because it's our thing too. Bring it in and we'll get it fixed right up".

 

[fukigen]

IXL makes a good point: as irrational as it seems, on the FL, provenance counts big time, and it's damn hard to reproduce. You can look on it as irrational or ridiculous, but we want to know that the jackets or whatever item have been produced by people who really care about them, that they understand that what they do really matters to the people who buy them: just look at the consternation caused by Good Wear when they raised the prices, that's as much to do with the fact that a lot of people realised they'd been priced out of their range than any logical response.
This place, as much as anything, is about the appreciation of skill, talent and art. We may voice varying opinions about the stuff we see, but there is always respect shown for the craftsmanship put into it. It's what gets a buzz going: one guy who's decided that he's going to reproduce Irivin flying jackets or A-2s, that's cool, show us what you've got, we may buy it! Telling me that Ralph Lauren produce as good a quality A-2 as ELC doesn't do it for me, because I know it's never going to have the same personal investment.
Now, I don't apply this to every aspect of my life, that would get really boring, and anyway, who would want to brush their teeth with a horsehair toothbrush, but I when I'm in here, talking to other FL-ers, I know I'm on the same level and what they're about. It's not logic, it's feel, and it's what makes great art, music and design.

you just put words on what I had in mind but couldn't write down correctly.

 

[Heiko]

Unless you're a share-holder or exec in Nike or one of the chemical companies who supply them, I doubt anyone really benefits from them. I could sit you down with a map of the world and show you the companies and institutions that are connected and benefit from Aero etc. Your point about mistreating people is an important one - even if the measurable reach of their 'benefit' isn't colossal, the good treatment of their people is commendable, especially in a time of economic hardship - I'm sure ELC, Bill Kelso, Schott etc are acting similarly, but I can only talk with any knowledge about Aero, who have just taken on students from the local textile college.

That's just not empirically true. Years ago I knew of several out of college grads who started working for Nike's IT and marketing departments--wasn't the best job possible, but it gave them experience. You could likewise be seated and shown what institutions benefit from Nike--it isn't of any use. You can't compare a billion dollar corporation and a tiny company like Aero. Aero buys horsehides and various bits and produces jackets--you have its employees that benefit and the places that source their wares. Same with all clothing manufacturers..also, I don't know the wages of Aero employees, but I really doubt it is very good or that it is unionized--do inform us. May I be so bold as to say that you are Aero shilling yet again. Image wise Aero wins hands down-- it is a small company producing luxury leathers and Nike is a heartless multinational producing shoes at huge profits--but let's not get carried away. Aero is a negligible drop when it comes to the economic well-fare of the region. Nike can literally bribe governments with its economic footprint, so it is not comparable.

Thanks for your suiting recommendations, bespoke has other advantages though. MTM isn't particularly nice in my eyes. The point was not to make you feel that bespoke is inferior to MTM or wherever you get your suits--it is that Savile Row bespoke isn't worth the cost because it is better quality. It is worth the cost because of the name (and in some cases distinctive cut)...I stopped using Poole after my first two experiences when I realized it wasn't worth the extra cost for me. Also, I don't know if you are aware of hand work and the prestige it garners, but funny stitching is a point of pride for most SR patrons--it is uncouth to ask to have lapels restitched with a machine.

And as for the other long post where you spoke about how amazing the origin of the product makes you feel...whatever makes you happy, just don't pretend there is reason to it. I like properly made things, and most properly made things don't come out of the UK. If you admit that there is no consistency to your shopping for domestic wares and that you pick and choose what item deserves the extra attention then that is one thing...but to say there is some kind of glory to buying local for luxury items is simply nonsensical.

 

[Heiko]

Precisely, exactly 100% correct. If a jacket (or boots or belts or wallets) could be made to look exactly like an item from known vendors in some soulless factory in India, or China, or Russia I'd not buy it, even for less money. I do in fact care about how something is made. Nothing stupid about it.

Boots don't contain souls...neither do factories. When you look at it logically there is indeed something daft about it. It's your money of course though, it is important that you're satisfied.

Also a bigger question, why do operations in developing or non-Western states not have souls?

 

[Heiko]

Nope, I have no agenda and no reason to sidestep. I'm also not stupid enough to be baited into senseless arguments.

Did you say that I was angry? Sorry, I offended you by asking what you meant by "quality objects"..Didn't know that was baiting you.

 

[Feraud]

It's not what one says but how ones says it.
You can be the most intelligent guy in the room but if you come off like an argumentative bore, no one is going to listen.

 

[GuyLdeB]

I think that people should remember that Labour laws or Workers Rights and conditions are a sign of an equal (ish) and intelligent society, A fair days work for a fair days days pay and all that. The 'improved' working terms and conditions didn't just happen, they cost a lot of blood, sweat and tears from some very brave people over the years. Accepted that towards the late 70s the pendulum swung quite a long way past the fair and equal and into the realms of Union craziness, works to rule etc etc (well it did in the UK), but that's no reason for people to return to the bad old days of the industrial revolution and the terrible conditions of the late 19th century even if its happening in somebody else's country.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

It's not what one says but how ones says it.
You can be the most intelligent guy in the room but if you come off like an argumentative bore, no one is going to listen.

Codescending attitude with purposeful jabs of 'silly'..'shill'. The lecturer rarely in agreement on any thread. Tatics that only produce resentment.

 

[majormajor]

Codescending attitude with purposeful jabs of 'silly'..'shill'. The lecturer rarely in agreement on any thread. Tatics that only produce resentment.

+1

 

[Feraud]

I think that people should remember that Labour laws or Workers Rights and conditions are a sign of an equal (ish) and intelligent society, A fair days work for a fair days days pay and all that. The 'improved' working terms and conditions didn't just happen, they cost a lot of blood, sweat and tears from some very brave people over the years. Accepted that towards the late 70s the pendulum swung quite a long way past the fair and equal and into the realms of Union craziness, works to rule etc etc (well it did in the UK), but that's no reason for people to return to the bad old days of the industrial revolution and the terrible conditions of the late 19th century even if its happening in somebody else's country.

I include as a sign of quality the working conditions of those who make the items. I won't be compelled to explain or apologize for it.