Made in America. Stayed in America.

[fukigen]

message to FL bartenders,

if the thread become too nationalist and "fighty", which was not my purpose when opening it while the topic may lead to it, please feel free to close the thread.

 

[Heiko]

I'll answer your questions, one by one...

I already said my electronics (in my mind that includes appliances) are probably Chinese or partially so. I do not know where Smeg or Panasonic or Musical Fidelity make their products, my loudspeakers, DALI, are supposed to be Danish, where I once lived. But I cannot guarantee that. My gasoline comes from Shell or Exxon, not French probably as they don't drill oil here much. My electricity is all French, produced by nuclear plants (should make you scared), locally. Where they get their plutonium, well I do not know (see how silly it can get).

My tires are bad stuff, German, for my Jeep made in Canada, sort of close to the US, where I once lived. Out of season produce is mainly from France, southern France is there for that, though I like mangoes from South America and Africa (well, I used to live in Africa, as well, and my wife is in love with South America). I'm also pleased to have fruit from the rest of the planet, my stomach feels happier. Wine, well, 95% French. Good stuff. My clothing is a mixture of hand made in Kenya and American (made in the US) stuff, and t-shirts and stuff obviously from wherever. And I do not know where the Kenyan tailor got his fabrics. He employs locals, he is a local there, that's enough for me.

The wood for the furnishings is French. Though my floor is from Spain, tiles from a castle there. But bought locally from a 2nd hand stuff dealer in Switzerland. Just to save confusion, I lived 15 miles from my present location in France, on the Swiss side of the border, for 9 years. Those guys are also local, they have worked in my house, they look at the area as local, Pays de Gex or Canton de Geneve or Vaud.

I, fortunately, do not have to go without a lot. I do spend lavishly, some would not even leave it there... And I am not French, I just live here, and work in Switzerland. And my furniture is not made in Portugal, majority bought in small local places or flea markets. And my house is 250 years old, guaranteed local

See how silly it can get. And my leather jackets are either originals, or Aero. My golf clubs definitely come from far east, but they are always adjusted locally to my specs. And I am glad to pay for it...

How boringly predictable. You just seem not to like the label 'Made in China' on class grounds.

Also, the hand made in Kenya clothing doesn't sound much different than say an expat getting handmade clothing made in China. So what is your point? You buy things from all over, and when it is a luxury item you go the high street fashion route. Big deal, everyone does that, which was my point. And tiles from an old castle isn't supporting anyone but your own vanity, btw--unless the tiles are really nice which would makes sense to seek out castle tiles. I've seen tiles from castles; in my experience, the stuff that is left to buy is less beautiful and more cachet.

Your original pt had a moralistic undertone, your current posts shows that you just buy whatever...quite different.

 

[tonypaj]

How boringly predictable. You just seem not to like the label 'Made in China' on class grounds.

Also, the hand made in Kenya clothing doesn't sound much different than say an expat getting handmade clothing made in China. So what is your point? You buy things from all over, and when it is a luxury item you go the high street fashion route. Big deal, everyone does that, which was my point. And tiles from an old castle isn't supporting anyone but your own vanity, btw--unless the tiles are really nice which would makes sense. I've seen tiles from castles; in my experience, the stuff that is left to buy is less beautiful and more cachet.

Your original pt had a moralistic undertone, your current posts shows that you just buy whatever...quite different.

OK, you are right, I shall leave it at that.

 

[Feraud]

message to FL bartenders,

if the thread become too nationalist and "fighty", which was not my purpose when opening it while the topic
may lead to it, please feel free to close the thread.

We'll keep an eye on it. Healthy discussion is welcome. Contention, baiting, etc. is not. You guys know the drill.

Funnily enough, I heard somebody talking about this on R4 last week. They simply made the point that Chinese factories are actually extremely efficient and capable of doing exactly what they Western companies request. The problem is that they are being asked by these businesses to produce low budget items.

Agreed. Foreign factories are asked by businesses to produce fast and cheap, and are supported by consumer action. It's easy to blame politicians and businesses but we consumers contribute our part to the problem.

Supporting a local economy is not a black or white issue. I believe in supporting my local economy as much as possible with the caveat that the goods produced are quality ones.
This doesn't mean you have to buy 100% local or be labeled a hypocrite. Being aware of the forces at work and doing one's small part is more than most people do.

 

[Heiko]

OK, you are right, I shall leave it at that.

Well, perhaps I am wrong...but I do not see how one who claimed to be a supporter of local goods when possible can go on and have a Kenyan tailor make his clothing. There are tons of tailors in France, really good ones too. So it doesn't make any sense. Again, maybe there is something I am not seeing, I do not doubt that I can be wrong.

Also, I like to think of myself as un-snobby, but I would never toss up a good French tailor for someone all the way in Kenya. That is by definition the opposite of lavish, but perhaps you have a certain aesthetic.

 

[Heiko]

Agreed. Foreign factories are asked by businesses to produce fast and cheap, and are supported by consumer action. It's easy to blame politicians and businesses but we consumers contribute our part to the problem.

What goods are you referring to? A lot of goods are equal quality and it is more about cost of labour. A toothbrush made in England by a unionized workforce is going to be more expensive than a Chinese made toothbrush--quality is equal.

So is your point that people should be willing to pay more for everything? If people pay more for lumber or bricks then that makes more sense to you? I neither see a problem or a solution in your writing.

 

[Feraud]

So is your point that people should be willing to pay more for everything?

No not everything but some things, quality things. Things which may cost more but last longer, perform better, and hopefully contribute local healthy economies in every country.
Not all goods are created equal. The issue isn't as black and white as you appear to view it.

 

[fukigen]

Supporting a local economy is not a black or white issue. I believe in supporting my local economy as much as possible with the caveat that the goods produced are quality ones.
This doesn't mean you have to buy 100% local or be labeled a hypocrite. Being aware of the forces at work and doing one's small part is more than most people do.

that's the idea! to which I would add (for me)

I like to buy goods from US company that are made in US and not in another country.
I like to buy goods from German company that are made in Germany not in another country.
I like to buy goods from French company that are made in France not in another country.
etc, etc, etc...

but I don't like to buy goods from US/UK/German/etc... company that are made in another country with low paid workers...

sometimes, there is no choice... too many things are made in China/Taiwan/Thailand/etc...
(just think about the harddisk of your computer, eg. Western Digital is US based company, HD are made in Thailand)

edit: another example, I wouldn't buy a Schott jacket anymore if it wasn't any longer made in USA.

 

[Heiko]

No not everything but some things, quality things. Things which may cost more but last longer, perform better, and hopefully contribute local healthy economies in every country.
Not all goods are created equal. The issue isn't as black and white as you appear to view it.

My view is that quality goods can be from anywhere--not just local. Also buying local need not be heralded as some kind of moral duty. I don't see the 'black and white' there. Please show me.

What "quality things", you mean luxury goods? You think buying a pair of Alden's is good for the local economy but buying a pair of Nikes is less good? You sure?

 

[Feraud]

My view is that quality goods can be from anywhere--not just local. Also buying local need not be heralded as some kind of moral duty. I don't see the 'black and white' there. Please show me.

What "quality things", you mean luxury goods? You think buying a pair of Alden's is good for the local economy but buying a pair of Nikes is less good? You sure?

I also stated (post# 24) quality can be found non-locally. Let's not twist words.
I believe what you do with your money amount to a moral action. You can believe otherwise if it makes you feel better.

As for the rest of your post, I have to say you come off as angry, antagonistic, and with a aura of condescension in your replies to others. Maybe I'm dead wrong but I bet I can reply to your various requests all day and you'd argue every sentence of it.
Let's agree to support the economy however we see fit.

 

[1961MJS]

Hi

Not worrying about quality or nationalism, but how close are we to the point where (for illustration) the Dutch wear Dutch made underwear because it's prohibitively expensive to ship it from China? At some tipping point, we'll all probably have to get back to manufacturing the basics at least on our continent. I just wonder how close we are?

later

 

[Heiko]

I also stated (post# 24) quality can be found non-locally. Let's not twist words.
I believe what you do with your money amount to a moral action. You can believe otherwise if it makes you feel better.

As for the rest of your post, I have to say you come off as angry, antagonistic, and with a aura of condescension in your replies to others. Maybe I'm dead wrong but I bet I can reply to your various requests all day and you'd argue every sentence of it.
Let's agree to support the economy however we see fit.

I asked you a question, you categorized my view as black and white--let's be fair when we talk about arguing and condescension. I am able to question your points because I do not see much to them, not because I am angry or antagonistic.

I was responding to this point, to which you accused me of anger instead of answering:
"No not everything but some things, quality things. Things which may cost more but last longer, perform better, and hopefully contribute local healthy economies in every country"

Well, so what are these quality things, I ask again? Do you mean luxury goods, and if so do you think you are doing something moral by purchasing Allen Edmonds or Aldens vs Nikes? And does this morality stem from supporting the US economy--because purchasing from all three support the US economy.

Moral action and spending, I don't disagree with you...but I didn't think that was a point of contention.

 

[Heiko]

Hi

Not worrying about quality or nationalism, but how close are we to the point where (for illustration) the Dutch wear Dutch made underwear because it's prohibitively expensive to ship it from China? At some tipping point, we'll all probably have to get back to manufacturing the basics at least on our continent. I just wonder how close we are?

later

Long long away...lots of oil left and lots of natural gas. That sort of crisis is not going to happen in our lifetimes.

 

[Sloan1874]

Heiko seems to be saying 'quality is quality' no matter what, geography doesn't come into it, which is fair enough. What I think others are saying is that quality comes with its own value system: yes, a pair of Nikes can be a solid pair of shoes that will give years of comfort, just as much as a pair of Alden, but they are two separate entities completely. The former is a triumph of mass production in a third-world country, using products created mainly by chemical corporations and sold for a huge profit - it costs Nike about $5 to make a pair of trainers.
The other involves probably one or two people who live locally, have trained and spent many long hours creating high-quality shoes using specialist leathers sourced from tanneries that rely on small niche businesses to take their product.
Now you could say that we're just buying into a concept of 'quality' if you buy from the latter and in terms of which benefits the local economy most it makes no odds as to which you pick - staff working in local shops selling trainers need to be paid too.
But on an objective level - which is what I think people are getting at - the 'value' of the Aldens' quality is longer lasting and benefit more tangible and widespread.

 

[Heiko]

Aldens and Nikes are not comparable in the sense you mentioned, I was getting at the fact that you can support the US economy by purchasing either one. If supporting the US economy is your goal then you can do either Nike or Alden.

I don't know what you mean by 'value', it sounds a lot like the concept of marketing to me. And yes of course, luxury goods manufacture differently than cheaper mass produced goods. My own experience--with suits on the row-- is that the manufacturing process is sometimes more gimmick than quality. I remember getting my first bespoke and thinking how sloppy the hand stitching on the lapel seemed compared to the machine stitched suits I had. I learned later that, the tailor felt he had to do hand work even though a machine would be better because the mystique of the product was hand made craftsmanship.So there is a lot of marketing mystique in your conceptions of quality.

Feraud's posts weren't really clear, so that why I was asking him in particular.

Just to add: I did think that your pt on the Nike profit model was insightful. They definitely cost very little. I have always been curious how much of the cost of various luxury items goes to profit--say, an Aero jacket--is it safe to assume that 50% of the price charged goes to pay for labour and materials or is it more?

 

[fukigen]

Aldens and Nikes are not comparable in the sense you mentioned, I was getting at the fact that you can support the US economy by purchasing either one. If supporting the US economy is your goal then you can do either Nike or Alden.

I do not agree with this unless Nike wear and shoes are made again in the US. Of course Nike have employees in the US (marketing dept, etc...) but Nike executives could decide to have american workers to make Nike clothes and shoes, they are just not interested. As displayed in Michael Moore the big one (altough it can be controversal), Nike CEO just didn't want to hire unemployed workers from Flint to make the shoes, even they were ready for it.

On the other hand, Alden are still making their shoes in US, and of course it has a cost... (but Nike shoes aren't cheap either)

At the end of the day, it depends from what people want.
Do they want to have in country factory that makes goods (jackets, furnitures, etc..) or do they want to have it all imported... but then many other jobs lost.

to wish cheaper stuff as a price, are people willing to pay it?

 

[Heiko]

True, there is also a moral dimension in purchasing Nike that I neglected...

 

[GuyLdeB]

I always think the core issue with, for instance, outsourcing manufacturing is whether the company doing the outsourcing is doing it in order to manufacture in a cheaper, but more hazardous or exploitative way, than they would be able to in their country of origin. Like the poster on the Mr Freedom webpage says ' making clothes costs money, if you don't want to pay for your clothes someone else probably will, with their lives (reference to number of fatalities in eastern sweat shops fires). These companies then import back to the west for free taking advantage of the 'free trade agreements' and make a killing.
Doesn't anyone have a problem with Ralph Lauren's RRL label making its hugely expensive American heritage 'unionmade' clothing in China for next to nothing. I personally am happy to pay a premium to buy USA made Redwing boots over their Chinese made ones in order to get both the higher quality and support fairly paid and union protected workers. This is not a nationalistic issue but rather one about companies being able to sidestep the west's workers hard earned rights by just moving somewhere where the local workers aren't protected. I don't want to see the west's workers all unemployed because they cannot compete with exploitative and dangerous sweatshops. Once places like China have the same workers rights, conditions nad union protection etc (as in manufacturing costs) as the west I'll be happy to buy from them.
I can see why the budget clothing brands make stuff for pennies abroad as they also sell it for very little too. But RRL boots cost more than USA made redwings. please correct me if I'm wrong but thats just greed on Mr laurens part I reckon. Just a thought.

 

[fukigen]

very true GuyLdeB,

it is kind of cheating the customer when a company has marketing based on US made heritage/legacy (for example) and producing goods in China (or somewhere else) for almost nothing, and selling it as it was still made in US.

 

[Sloan1874]

Could Nike really be said to be American any more? It's a global brand that sort of floats above any geographic location - it's HQ may be Oregon but it's got 700 factories around the world, and I should imagine its tax affairs are so amorphous and labyrinthine that you'll find the Minotaur wondering around in them. Giving Nike money is, I think, just giving Nike money, very few others benefit.

I did make the point that the 'value' assigned to quality is in part a marketing ploy, but on the other hand, if I can show you exactly how I go about making something, where the raw materials come from, the time it takes to make and how I arrive at the price I charge, then it's pretty fair to say that the value the quality it holds is going to be high.

Your mention of buying a bespoke suit is interesting because your decision must have come from a similar value choice: you could've bought a Boateng or Ede and Ravenscroft off the peg, and objectively it could have looked just as nice, but you chose to go with the handmade because you must have made some value judgement on the quality of one over the other - the fact it didn't quite work out for you on that occasion doesn't mean your judgement was wrong or that the general principle isn't valid, it was just bad luck; though you had the option to ask the shop to correct the stitching.