LUFTWAFFE jackets - Eagles who Dare to Wear..!

[aswatland]

Here's an original jacket as a comparison. There is no evidence it was worn by a Luftwaffe pilot but it is exactly the type of private purchase bike jacket worn by them from 1940-45. The zips are made by Zipp and are all original to the jacket, apart from the main zip slider and pull, which I replaced.

 

[Windsock]

Andrew, very nice jacket and at first glance thought it was the same as this one which is definitely the real deal. Collar, zips and belt the obvious differences.


http://cas.awm.gov.au/heraldry/REL/18105.001

Andrew

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Andrew,

That is a late war or post war ZIPP model. An early 50s jacket i have has the same type of ZIPP. I think in the zippers thread i posted a link to the page of a chap who has categorised them by model*. Does yours have the "DRP" stamped anywhere? Are the snaps PRYM (PYRM???)?

Another jacket i have, which appears to be a post war police (green leather) trench model has an earlier (mid war) ZIPP on the inside pocket.

And yet another (i am the home of german leather) has a very modern-looking ZIPP main zip. Alan, do any of your copious zipper resources mention when ZIPP went out of business?

bk

*[edit] This page: http://wengerm.home.mindspring.com/Details-Zippers1.html

p.s. That's a very lovely jacket, Andrew.

 

[aswatland]

Andrew,

That is a late war or post war ZIPP model. An early 50s jacket i have has the same type of ZIPP. I think in the zippers thread i posted a link to the page of a chap who has categorised them by model*. Does yours have the "DRP" stamped anywhere? Are the snaps PRYM (PYRM???)?

Another jacket i have, which appears to be a post war police (green leather) trench model has an earlier (mid war) ZIPP on the inside pocket.

And yet another (i am the home of german leather) has a very modern-looking ZIPP main zip. Alan, do any of your copious zipper resources mention when ZIPP went out of business?

bk

*[edit] This page: http://wengerm.home.mindspring.com/Details-Zippers1.html

p.s. That's a very lovely jacket, Andrew.

The jacket has the typical 40s striped internal sleeves. Although the main zip is original I swapped the slider because the original had lost its pull. I have just had another look at the upper breast zips and they are marked "BCWFN" . The lower zips are stamped "Zipp" and have rectangular pulls and the familiar ball and chain pulls too. The snaps are stamped "Prym 6". I believe the jacket to be wartime rather than 1950s. No DRP anywhere.

 

[Alan Eardley]

First, let us not assume that a jacket with a ZIPP is automatically German. A number of patents were reigistered by the Zipp Fastener Co Ltd. in the UK (they had offices in London and a factory in York that was in engaged in war work in 1942-43) and patents were taken out between 1934 and 1949 in England, Canada and the USA. Here is an example:
PATENT EXTRACT:
"ZIPP FASTENER CO., Ltd., Angel Road, Edmonton, London. June 11, 1934, No. 17238. [Class 44] To prevent the opening of a sliding- clasp fastener by lateral pulls on the stringer tapes moving the slider down by cam action, inwardly projecting pips 1f on the plates of the slider enter between the outside ends 2 of the elements and so lock the slider when any lateral pull arises..."

Interestingly, some of the names in which the patents are taken out (usually the inventor who may or may not work for the company taking it out) are also associated with patents taken out by Aero and Conmar! There is even a specific reference to Aero Zipp Fasteners Ltd. Is this a typo? On an official document that will be checked by lawyers? Perhaps, but maybe there is a link between Aero and Zipp. Is it the same company, I wonder? Maybe the terms zipp and zip were generic at that time.

In answer to your question, the latest patent I can find relating to ZIPP is 1949. This isn't an indication of production, but I think we can reasonably assume that ZIPPS were being produced around that date. You see ZIPPS on jackets that are provably 1950s and with the often-discussed phenomenon of lousy stock control of trimmings (done it myself) I don't see why they would be used some years later.

I don't know if this helps. Prym snaps were common. They look so much like Newey-Goodman that I wonder who copied whom. Every Newey holds a patent stamp...

Alan

<Added later> Some late war Irvin zip pullers have a marking that is usually taken to be an 'N' - is there a possibility it may be an 'Z' on it's side? Just a thought.

<Added later still> Is Edmonton a long way from the Baronial Towers? Could a little investigation be done?
A

Andrew,

That is a late war or post war ZIPP model. An early 50s jacket i have has the same type of ZIPP. I think in the zippers thread i posted a link to the page of a chap who has categorised them by model*. Does yours have the "DRP" stamped anywhere? Are the snaps PRYM (PYRM???)?

Another jacket i have, which appears to be a post war police (green leather) trench model has an earlier (mid war) ZIPP on the inside pocket.

And yet another (i am the home of german leather) has a very modern-looking ZIPP main zip. Alan, do any of your copious zipper resources mention when ZIPP went out of business?

bk

*[edit] This page: http://wengerm.home.mindspring.com/Details-Zippers1.html

p.s. That's a very lovely jacket, Andrew.

 

[aswatland]

Very helpful stuff Alan. In fact I bought the replacement slider from the USA. The jacket was bought from Germany though.

 

[kampkatz]

Once again, Andrew's explanation of additional details provides enlightenment.
Everyone who reads this forum should truly appreciate having a real historian who knows how to present information. Thanks again.

 

[Edward]

As the man said: Don't mention the war!

To get back to the subject.
From older threads here - and in other forums - I have the impression that Replicaters are not all that good. many of their productpix are simply lifted from other websites. And the quality of their products are not always A1.
On the other hand, I have also read about folks getting good stuff from them - but they had to follow up very closely on the production - many of their items are not in stock - but produced when the order comes in.
In some examples: For the first time.
Just a word of warning.
Perhaps other loungers can chip in with their experiences - good or bad?

Funnily enough, I wodnered about this myself. The photo of the jacket in brown with the red satin cloth inside covering the neck stump of the dummy / stand looks extremely familiar - is it ELC? I've never seen these jackets in person, though I'd be slightly wary of buying any leather by mail where I asn't sure of the company. Your mileag may vary, but I have a strong preference for my leather to be as thick and durable as possible (I like a jackt to stand up by itself when new, lol ), and in my experience that's the first thing to be compromised on when producing a cheaper jacket. Doesn't the site itself say that the leather is "thin?" The other things I'd be concerned about in that price range would be lesser quality fittings and stitching, but that I really can't comment on in relation to these particular items - just the things I'd be looking out for based on past experience of cheaper leather.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

PATENT EXTRACT:
"ZIPP FASTENER CO., Ltd., Angel Road, Edmonton, London. June 11, 1934, No. 17238. [Class 44] To prevent the opening of a sliding- clasp fastener by lateral pulls on the stringer tapes moving the slider down by cam action, inwardly projecting pips 1f on the plates of the slider enter between the outside ends 2 of the elements and so lock the slider when any lateral pull arises..."

<Added later still> Is Edmonton a long way from the Baronial Towers? Could a little investigation be done?
A

Looks like a 10 minute bike ride. Also looks like a very industrial part of the City, so wish me luck finding one factory among many . . . that's probably been knocked down/bombed out anyway

bk

 

[Smithy]

Replicaters...

As Alan says there has been a lot of discussion on the RAF Re-enactors board regarding Sanjay. Back in NZ I know a re-enactor who has one of Sanjay's sets of SD (from 2005) and having seen it in person I have to say it is very, very nice. Saying that though, I know that this friend of mine sent Sanjay a whole CD of photos of his own original SD. Chris Kanka over at the forum also had Sanjay knock up a set of RAAF BD and I know he was thrilled with the result. The photos he posted when he got it were stunning. In fact I was so impressed that I originally intended purchasing a set of SD from Sanjay and we corresponded several times and I found him to be incredibly polite and helpful (offering to send samples of barathea). And he did say to me a number of times that the more photos of what I wanted the better. I declined in the end as I picked up a mint condition set of RNZAF SD in the right size for a ludicrously small price.

Overall I would say Sanjay's work depends hugely on the amount and quality of info you are able to give him, and he is currently the only maker of several reproductions, for example the pre-war white prestige flying suits. If you wish to use him to make you a garment just make sure you furnish him with as many images and details about the item you want tailored.

 

[BellyTank]

All true, Alan.

The "Cycle jacket" style, has partly become famous as one of Hartmann's jackets but that style was indeed one of the more common styles- I believe it was quite a modern and fashionable garment among Experten but there were many "traditional German" styles also in use during the early War- those with a lot of buttons, short and double breasted. Some of the jackets used were downright ugly too.
I believe that "black" has "become" the colour of WW2 German things but I would hazard a (an educated)guess that Luftwaffe-used jackets of this time, were more often than not, brown in colour.


B
T

 

[ukali1066]

Many thanks guys, you've all been most helpful and informative

 

[OldSkoolFrat]

Sorry old boy, I was under the impression WW2 was over??

If a fella likes the jacket then he likes the jacket!

This could be offensive, if we do have any German menbers left.fftopic: James.

Well, I was born in Germany. I did not reference, "German Pilots," getting shot down I referenced, "Nazi Pilots," getting shot down. I also mentioned a Jewish Spitfire pilot who's memory is diminished by folks parading around like Prussian, Yunker pilots.

Well, this German is offended and is outa here. Now looking to find a way to attach the Edelweiss pin I have to my A-2.

 

[aswatland]

Well, I was born in Germany. I did not reference, "German Pilots," getting shot down I referenced, "Nazi Pilots," getting shot down. I also mentioned a Jewish Spitfire pilot who's memory is diminished by folks parading around like Prussian, Yunker pilots.

Well, this German is offended and is outa here. Now looking to find a way to attach the Edelweiss pin I have to my A-2.

Perhaps, I am wrong but I always understood that very few German pilots were actually Nazis. I am totally anti-Nazi BTW.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

Goering Goering...Gone

aside from the issue of Indian versions of ww2 German jackets (i'd kinda think German versions might have a bit more pedigree), i noticed the comment about luftwaffe jackets being 'nazi' jackets...

whilst that lovable guy hermann goering was indeed a member of the nazi party, the ww2 luftwaffe was like the ww2 german army, not a nazified branch of government...

of course, it's all semantix when you consider everyone fighting for germany was fighting for the nazi-controlled government's domination of the world...

still, the luftwaffe branch was officially non-political, though run by a supporter and member of the nazi party...oddly, counter-comparable to the confederate army during the u.s. civil war, also without an 'official' view on racist philosophy, and headed by robert lee, someone who opposed slavery...whilst one of the union's most notable and successful generals, sherman (namesake of the ww2 u.s. sherman tank), was a strong racist and his 'scorched earth' tactix were pretty much employed by the third reich in ww2

guess the point is, name calling concerning historical items, especially when technically incorrect, is the sort of emotionalism most of us on this forum seem to eschew...we knew who was right and wrong in ww2, but the clothing and interest in it is another issue...

remember, hugo boss, very esteemed and trendy today, designed and manufactured the ss uniform for himmler's totally nazified ss (likely a bit of info not on the boss website today)...german uniforms in ww2 were further designed with a very conscious eye to hollywood costume design in the thirties, the nazi's very concerned with 'image' and understanding (sadly) how to use it to strong effect...

going further afield, one may look at the work of leni reifenstahl and her filming of the 36 olympix...considered not only epochal and precedent-setting film making, but propaganda for which riefenstahl suffered a black mark during the rest of her life, and beyond

i'm of jewish heritage, but don't have a problem wearing german ww2 jackets, ww2 german ordnance watches and such...they are items of fascination, as are the brit 'www' ww2 watches, and the u.s. issue ww2 jackets and watches...though i don't think i'll be wearing nazi regalia anytime soon...but, back to the original thought, the luftwaffe was not officially nazified and so the jackets were not 'nazi' jackets...

on the other side of the coin, i know german jews who survived concentration camps in ww2 and will never buy a mercedes...can't argue with that

on top of it all, the early and true luftwaffe jackets were actually private purchase bicycle jackets that pilots purchased for themselves...

oh well, where does it end? how many of the coffee drinkers on the forum here have a krupps latte maker at home?

that issue aside, and back to the indian jacket question, i personally doubt i'd buy an Indian replica of a German ww2 historical item...just like i wouldn't buy the korean-made avirex post ww2 a-2 jackets...nothing against the koreans, for some reason i'd just prefer a u.s. manufacturer to make a u.s. military item

johnnyjohnny

 

[Baron Kurtz]

The jacket has the typical 40s striped internal sleeves. Although the main zip is original I swapped the slider because the original had lost its pull. I have just had another look at the upper breast zips and they are marked "BCWFN" . The lower zips are stamped "Zipp" and have rectangular pulls and the familiar ball and chain pulls too. The snaps are stamped "Prym 6". I believe the jacket to be wartime rather than 1950s. No DRP anywhere.

Striped sleeve linings were typical on 40s German leather jackets?

The BCWFN (not "rN"?) is mentioned on the ZIPP website as first appearing in 1944. The ZIPP on my trench coat, FWIW, is stamped "DRP Nürnberg". But it's clearly a 50s jacket. So a stock control issue, i think.

bk

 

[aswatland]

I would be interested in the link to the Zipp website.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

check my last post on page 1

On the site there is a link at the bottom of the the page to take you to the second page of ZIPPs. He also has some stuff about buttons.

bk

[edit] and for anyone interested i'll throw out my usual plug of the zippers thread: http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=6076

 

[Baron Kurtz]

p.s. Alan, i'm leaning towards an interchangability of "zip" and "zipp" and "zipper" at the time. Perhaps in order to circumvent the legal challenges from Talon on the use of "slide fastener".

bk

 

[Baron Kurtz]

There is a photo of my grandfather on his last leave before shipping out to Egypt wearing his Gordon Highlanders kit - with a short leather "motorcycle" jacket.

So, are we to describe any short leather, typically black, motorcycle jacket as "Luftwaffe"? Methinks not, and i appear to be in good company.

bk