Legendary USA Black Stallion is Back

[AHP91]

Edsim is the leather supplier. I was wondering who the sewer is.

As a former resident of NYC, can confirm the sewer to be the upper level of Penn Station by 7th Avenue.

 

[Aloysius]

Edsim is the leather supplier. I was wondering who the sewer is.

Oh, after rereading, you’re right. The EDSIM page mentioned they have designers and sewers so I assumed that side of the workshop was in play.

 

[Guppy]

I saw the screenshot but they quoted the part of the FAQ about returning non-Legendary products so right before that it says otherwise. Possibly the employee got confused.

View attachment 520414

I just chatted with Ren at Legendary USA again.

He confirmed a few things for me:

1. Schott NYC is NOT the maker of this run of the Black Stallion.
2. They are unable to disclose the maker, but did say that it is made in the USA.

3. Despite what it says above in Aloysius's screen capture, they only offer replacement, exchange, or store credit, shipping charges are not refundable.

It's a little weird that Legendary is keeping the Black Stallion name and the 696H product number, given that it's not a Schott product. To me, that seems misleading. If it's the same pattern, and they want to claim ownership of the "Black Stallion" name and they're satisfied with the maker they're sourcing from, I get it, but to continue with the 696H model designation, which is a Schott convention, feels a little sus.

To be honest, given the price point of $928, I would have been surprised if it had been Schott, since that's less than they are charging these days for their non-special edition limited run stuff. It seemed a little too good to be true.

So I wonder who the maker of this run will be. Someone guessed it could be Hillside USA, and that's not a bad guess. I wouldn't know who else to guess it could be. But who knows.

I think given the unknown pedigree, and the return policy being misstated to me three different ways, I wouldn't feel confident in purchasing one. this time around.

I do hope that they do review well for those who decide to go through with their orders and receive theirs.

And if it is Hillside USA, I will say this: Hillside are capable of making a good motorcycle jacket -- I had them custom make me a jacket to my specs in 2014, which I was happy with.

I understand a few people on these forums have expressed disappointment with the leather used in Hillside's regular production product line, which, frankly I would agree with. But when I asked Hillside to go with a heavier weight leather than they showed me in the samples they sent, they did so, and with no additional cost above and beyond what they were already charging me for a custom design. I thought Hillside's service was excellent -- they sent me sample swatches, answered every question I had, and they did everything I asked, to my satisfaction.

But if this is a Hillside made jacket, and they're using their standard production quality, then I think the biggest risk is that it's just paying more money to get the Legendary USA branding. Not that you wouldn't get a decent jacket that you can actually ride a motorcycle with. But $928 for a $641 jacket is not the great bargain it seemed like when it was assumed to be a Schott USA built jacket.

 

[Aloysius]

Considering Harley Davidson has Vanson making the Jason Momoa and Cycle King jackets at the same price point (and I assume a big margin given who they are) I’m disappointed Legendary didn’t go that route. The latest comp weight is beautiful.

 

[Madhouse27]

A few quick shots of the Legendary Beck horsehide vest (cut). Could very well be the same leather that the Stallion will be done in. I’ve only had this vest about a month so its just beginning to get broken in but there is some nice character and grain starting to emerge.

 

[Aloysius]

A few quick shots of the Legendary Beck horsehide vest (cut). Could very well be the same leather that the Stallion will be done in. I’ve only had this vest about a month so its just beginning to get broken in but there is some nice character and grain starting to emerge.

Nice, clean stitching on this. I have a naked cowhide Schott trucker that fulfills a similar niche (which I got at a huge discount at the factory because one sleeve was scuffed–if I’d wanted to make a vest of it that would be an extra-good deal).

 

[Guppy]

I just chatted with Ren at Legendary USA again.

[...]

Update (replying to my own post, past the 10k character limit):

I posted this BEFORE catching up with the thread. So we think it's EDSIM that's making this batch? I've never heard of them before, and I have no idea what they are like. Their website looks they are a generalist fashion leather maker, not a motorcycle-oriented maker. If that's indeed the maker, then I would have to see one on person and try it on before I gave an opinion on it.

Update 2:

I know I already just bought one of these second hand, but the prospect of 1.4mm horsehide combined with the 15% discount offer was enough to tempt me into placing a pre-order, after I chatted with Ren earlier this week and he told me that it was returnable for refund.

After talking to him again today, and he confirmed that they weren't being produced by Schott, AND that they were returnable for exchange or store credit only, I backed out and canceled my order. I would have given them a chance if I could return for a full refund, or refund less shipping, but to buy with the maker a secret, on the strength of their old photos showing the Schott made version from however long ago, I don't have the kind of money to throw around speculatively.

A few minutes after canceling the order, I got a call from someone at Legendary, I didn't catch the name. He didn't sound happy, mentioned something about several orders being cancelled, asked if I was part of the "weird" Fedora forum, and not understanding all the cancellations, and asked me why I wanted to cancel the order, so I explained to him that in light of the return policy and the unknown maker, I was no longer interested.

He didn't have much that he could say to change my mind, and they did cancel my order and refunded my payment. I'm happy about that.

He did try to say a few things: that a Schott made run would have cost double what they're charging, that it doesn't matter who makes them, because all it matters is if they know how to cut and sew, and that he wouldn't sell a jacket that wasn't built to ride in.

I imagine he's either reading this thread or will at some point. I want to be as kind to their business as I can, because even if I am not going to buy this jacket today, I'd prefer to be a customer in a market with as many strong options as possible, and I believe Legendary is and can be one of those options. I don't feel I got to speak eloquently or completely on the phone with him, so in the interest of helping his business do better, I'd like to offer a few pieces of advice and opinion.

1. We members of the Fedora Lounge, well, I guess we ARE a little weird, when you get down to it. But we're good weird. We know a LOT about this stuff we're interested in. We're probably harder to please than your average customer. But we're informed, and we share knowledge with each other. Stuff that wouldn't matter to a casual customer, we obsess over. Because we love the products.
2. I was very interested and happy to see Legendary bringing back the Black Stallion -- at first.
3. What soured me on buying this time around was the switcheroo from Schott to Unknown.
4. It's not like Schott is the best maker of leather jackets or anything, they're not. But they are COMPETENT at it, and a known quantity. They've been around nearly a century, and you generally know what you're getting with them.
5. No, not every jacket made by Schott these days is made in the USA. But every jacket I've owned from them, to the best of my knowledge, was.
6. I own jackets that were made in the USA, the UK, Greece, Japan, and yes even China. "Made in the USA" is fine, good even, but it doesn't mean everything it once did. It used to be a sign of quality that something was made in the USA, but anymore, even that's a crapshoot. A lot of the old manufacturing know-how was destroyed and lost when companies moved manufacturing overseas to cut costs, and will likely never return. So the USA's once sterling reputation for quality manufacturing never did simply have to do with the geography. It had to do with the people, their skill, their passion for high quality. Starting to make something in the USA now, well, all you have to go on is your reputation that you earned from the quality of what you made. I don't know the reputation of an unknown mystery maker that you can't divulge the name of.
7. I would have been willing to take the gamble on the mystery maker, if the return policy was clear and allowed a return for refund. A policy for store credit or exchange only doesn't help me feel secure about taking a risk with a new maker. I've read the return policy in writing, and asked on two separate occasions, and I wasn't able to get the answer I needed to hear, consistently. Your staff need to know your return policy and be able to quote it without errors; if they can't, that erodes confidence.
8. The product pictures on your website showed the Schott made jacket, and when I found out that this run wasn't being produced by Schott, but by some other, unknown maker, OF COURSE that erodes confidence. You may know this other maker, and trust them; I don't. But showing photos of the old jacket gave me the impression that the new ones were going to be the same as those pictured. Caring about who made it, and being willing to trust a known quantity with a century of reputation vs. someone you may think is just as good isn't really all that hard to understand.
9. I'm sure you're right, that at the prices Schott is selling their jackets today, for them to do a limited run collaboration with you, the price probably would have been considerably higher than the $918-928 you were offering; of course that's why so many of us were jumping on this deal. With the Schott history, Schott model number, and Schott images, were we not supposed to think that this was going to be a Schott made jacket? Were we not supposed to care if we learned that it wasn't?
10. We're not all made of money, but we do believe in paying for quality, and we also believe in getting what we paid for. We're educated and we investigate. And things that you may not think would matter, sometimes matter a great deal to us.

Anyhow, I wish you all the best and I hope that the quality of this limited run is every bit as good, if not more, than with your prior runs. But with the return policy as it is, it'll have to remain to be seen. But by others; not me, this time I'll be content to sit out.

To be honest, I don't know what the right answer is for a business with its marketing message, if you own a product line and you contract with various people to make the stuff you put your name on, does it matter, should it matter who the people you're sourcing from are? I wouldn't say necessarily that Legendary were trying to pull the wool over our eyes by using their old photos and model number. Auto makers deal with parts sourced from various contractors, and they're fine as long as they're built to a quality standard and meet all the necessary specs. And if Legendary looked at it like that, I could see why they would keep the part number the same, and use the same photos.

But in this case, to me, it did matter, as it did to many of us here. But more than that, it was the uncertainty over the return policy, combined with the uncertainty of the unknown maker.

I hope I've been clear, I would have been willing to give the new maker a chance, even if they were unknown, if I knew with certainty that I could return for a full refund if not fully satisfied.

 

[Aloysius]

We members of the Fedora Lounge, well, I guess we ARE a little weird, when you get down to it. But we're good weird. We know a LOT about this stuff we're interested in. We're probably harder to please than your average customer. But we're informed, and we share knowledge with each other. Stuff that wouldn't matter to a casual customer, we obsess over. Because we love the products.

To this end, I hope whoever from Legendary sees this gets that we actually want them to make good stuff and that the original direction of this thread itself shows that, if messaging had been more consistent, they might even have sold out their allocation just on the basis of people here.

We don’t, as a matter of course, have a huge amount of money to throw around, but we’re willing to spend it on something solid, and will come together to support a maker who’s doing right. If we knew this was being made by Vanson, for instance, I expect all orders would have been filled by now, with no refunds.

The new maker might very well be just as good as Vanson or Schott, but without even seeing a sample jacket from them (and, instead, seeing Hillside’s jacket) it’s understandable that we’d hesitate.

 

[Observe]

Update (replying to my own post, past the 10k character limit):

I posted this BEFORE catching up with the thread. So we think it's EDSIM that's making this batch? I've never heard of them before, and I have no idea what they are like. Their website looks they are a generalist fashion leather maker, not a motorcycle-oriented maker. If that's indeed the maker, then I would have to see one on person and try it on before I gave an opinion on it.

Update 2:

I know I already just bought one of these second hand, but the prospect of 1.4mm horsehide combined with the 15% discount offer was enough to tempt me into placing a pre-order, after I chatted with Ren earlier this week and he told me that it was returnable for refund.

After talking to him again today, and he confirmed that they weren't being produced by Schott, AND that they were returnable for exchange or store credit only, I backed out and canceled my order. I would have given them a chance if I could return for a full refund, or refund less shipping, but to buy with the maker a secret, on the strength of their old photos showing the Schott made version from however long ago, I don't have the kind of money to throw around speculatively.

A few minutes after canceling the order, I got a call from someone at Legendary, I didn't catch the name. He didn't sound happy, mentioned something about several orders being cancelled, asked if I was part of the "weird" Fedora forum, and not understanding all the cancellations, and asked me why I wanted to cancel the order, so I explained to him that in light of the return policy and the unknown maker, I was no longer interested.

He didn't have much that he could say to change my mind, and they did cancel my order and refunded my payment. I'm happy about that.

He did try to say a few things: that a Schott made run would have cost double what they're charging, that it doesn't matter who makes them, because all it matters is if they know how to cut and sew, and that he wouldn't sell a jacket that wasn't built to ride in.

I imagine he's either reading this thread or will at some point. I want to be as kind to their business as I can, because even if I am not going to buy this jacket today, I'd prefer to be a customer in a market with as many strong options as possible, and I believe Legendary is and can be one of those options. I don't feel I got to speak eloquently or completely on the phone with him, so in the interest of helping his business do better, I'd like to offer a few pieces of advice and opinion.

1. We members of the Fedora Lounge, well, I guess we ARE a little weird, when you get down to it. But we're good weird. We know a LOT about this stuff we're interested in. We're probably harder to please than your average customer. But we're informed, and we share knowledge with each other. Stuff that wouldn't matter to a casual customer, we obsess over. Because we love the products.
2. I was very interested and happy to see Legendary bringing back the Black Stallion -- at first.
3. What soured me on buying this time around was the switcheroo from Schott to Unknown.
4. It's not like Schott is the best maker of leather jackets or anything, they're not. But they are COMPETENT at it, and a known quantity. They've been around nearly a century, and you generally know what you're getting with them.
5. No, not every jacket made by Schott these days is made in the USA. But every jacket I've owned from them, to the best of my knowledge, was.
6. I own jackets that were made in the USA, the UK, Greece, Japan, and yes even China. It used to be a sign of quality that something was made in the USA, but anymore, even that's a crapshoot. A lot of the old manufacturing know-how was destroyed and lost when companies moved manufacturing overseas to cut costs, and will likely never return. So the USA's once sterling reputation for quality manufacturing never did simply have to do with the geography. It had to do with the people, their skill, their passion for high quality. Starting to make something in the USA now, well, all you have to go on is your reputation that you earned from the quality of what you made. I don't know the reputation of an unknown mystery maker that you can't divulge the name of.
7. I would have been willing to take the gamble on the mystery maker, if the return policy was clear and allowed a return for refund. A policy for store credit or exchange only doesn't help me feel secure about taking a risk with a new maker. I've read the return policy in writing, and asked on two separate occasions, and I wasn't able to get the answer I needed to hear, consistently. Your staff need to know your return policy and be able to quote it without errors; if they can't, that erodes confidence.
8. The product pictures on your website showed the Schott made jacket, and when I found out that this run wasn't being produced by Schott, but by some other, unknown maker, OF COURSE that erodes confidence. You may know this other maker, and trust them; I don't. But showing photos of the old jacket gave me the impression that the new ones were going to be the same as those pictured. Caring about who made it, and being willing to trust a known quantity with a century of reputation vs. someone you may think is just as good isn't really all that hard to understand.
9. I'm sure you're right, that at the prices Schott is selling their jackets today, for them to do a limited run collaboration with you, the price probably would have been considerably higher than the $918-928 you were offering; of course that's why so many of us were jumping on this deal. With the Schott history, Schott model number, and Schott images, were we not supposed to think that this was going to be a Schott made jacket? Were we not supposed to care if we learned that it wasn't?
10. We're not all made of money, but we do believe in paying for quality, and we also believe in getting what we paid for. We're educated and we investigate. And things that you may not think would matter, sometimes matter a great deal to us.

Anyhow, I wish you all the best and I hope that the quality of this limited run is every bit as good, if not more, than with your prior runs. But with the return policy as it is, it'll have to remain to be seen. But by others; not me, this time I'll be content to sit out.

To be honest, I don't know what the right answer is for a business with its marketing message, if you own a product line and you contract with various people to make the stuff you put your name on, does it matter, should it matter who the people you're sourcing from are? I wouldn't say necessarily that Legendary were trying to pull the wool over our eyes by using their old photos and model number. Auto makers deal with parts sourced from various contractors, and they're fine as long as they're built to a quality standard and meet all the necessary specs. And if Legendary looked at it like that, I could see why they would keep the part number the same, and use the same photos.

But in this case, to me, it did matter, as it did to many of us here. But more than that, it was the uncertainty over the return policy, combined with the uncertainty of the unknown maker.

I hope I've been clear, I would have been willing to give the new maker a chance, even if they were unknown, if I knew with certainty that I could return for a full refund if not fully satisfied.

Great post, and I love being part of the "weird fedora forum", lmao.

 

[Will Zach]

As I said, they butchered the rollout. They should have made a single test jacket with Edsim leather and by the Unknown maker. Take as many detailed pictures as possible, accurately depict stitching, hardware, the works. Post them on the website along with leather specs to instill confidence. Don't give it a Schott number to create confusion.

 

[Guppy]

As I said, they butchered the rollout. They should have made a single test jacket with Edsim leather and by the Unknown maker. Take as many detailed pictures as possible, accurately depict stitching, hardware, the works. Post them on the website along with leather specs to instill confidence. Don't give it a Schott number to create confusion.

I agree, that would have been the better way to go.

If they were thinking it worked like the OEM car parts contractor analogy I mentioned above, well I guess by now that they have some evidence that it doesn't work that way with leather jackets.

 

[AHP91]

Update (replying to my own post, past the 10k character limit):

I posted this BEFORE catching up with the thread. So we think it's EDSIM that's making this batch? I've never heard of them before, and I have no idea what they are like. Their website looks they are a generalist fashion leather maker, not a motorcycle-oriented maker. If that's indeed the maker, then I would have to see one on person and try it on before I gave an opinion on it.

Update 2:

I know I already just bought one of these second hand, but the prospect of 1.4mm horsehide combined with the 15% discount offer was enough to tempt me into placing a pre-order, after I chatted with Ren earlier this week and he told me that it was returnable for refund.

After talking to him again today, and he confirmed that they weren't being produced by Schott, AND that they were returnable for exchange or store credit only, I backed out and canceled my order. I would have given them a chance if I could return for a full refund, or refund less shipping, but to buy with the maker a secret, on the strength of their old photos showing the Schott made version from however long ago, I don't have the kind of money to throw around speculatively.

A few minutes after canceling the order, I got a call from someone at Legendary, I didn't catch the name. He didn't sound happy, mentioned something about several orders being cancelled, asked if I was part of the "weird" Fedora forum, and not understanding all the cancellations, and asked me why I wanted to cancel the order, so I explained to him that in light of the return policy and the unknown maker, I was no longer interested.

He didn't have much that he could say to change my mind, and they did cancel my order and refunded my payment. I'm happy about that.

He did try to say a few things: that a Schott made run would have cost double what they're charging, that it doesn't matter who makes them, because all it matters is if they know how to cut and sew, and that he wouldn't sell a jacket that wasn't built to ride in.

I imagine he's either reading this thread or will at some point. I want to be as kind to their business as I can, because even if I am not going to buy this jacket today, I'd prefer to be a customer in a market with as many strong options as possible, and I believe Legendary is and can be one of those options. I don't feel I got to speak eloquently or completely on the phone with him, so in the interest of helping his business do better, I'd like to offer a few pieces of advice and opinion.

1. We members of the Fedora Lounge, well, I guess we ARE a little weird, when you get down to it. But we're good weird. We know a LOT about this stuff we're interested in. We're probably harder to please than your average customer. But we're informed, and we share knowledge with each other. Stuff that wouldn't matter to a casual customer, we obsess over. Because we love the products.
2. I was very interested and happy to see Legendary bringing back the Black Stallion -- at first.
3. What soured me on buying this time around was the switcheroo from Schott to Unknown.
4. It's not like Schott is the best maker of leather jackets or anything, they're not. But they are COMPETENT at it, and a known quantity. They've been around nearly a century, and you generally know what you're getting with them.
5. No, not every jacket made by Schott these days is made in the USA. But every jacket I've owned from them, to the best of my knowledge, was.
6. I own jackets that were made in the USA, the UK, Greece, Japan, and yes even China. It used to be a sign of quality that something was made in the USA, but anymore, even that's a crapshoot. A lot of the old manufacturing know-how was destroyed and lost when companies moved manufacturing overseas to cut costs, and will likely never return. So the USA's once sterling reputation for quality manufacturing never did simply have to do with the geography. It had to do with the people, their skill, their passion for high quality. Starting to make something in the USA now, well, all you have to go on is your reputation that you earned from the quality of what you made. I don't know the reputation of an unknown mystery maker that you can't divulge the name of.
7. I would have been willing to take the gamble on the mystery maker, if the return policy was clear and allowed a return for refund. A policy for store credit or exchange only doesn't help me feel secure about taking a risk with a new maker. I've read the return policy in writing, and asked on two separate occasions, and I wasn't able to get the answer I needed to hear, consistently. Your staff need to know your return policy and be able to quote it without errors; if they can't, that erodes confidence.
8. The product pictures on your website showed the Schott made jacket, and when I found out that this run wasn't being produced by Schott, but by some other, unknown maker, OF COURSE that erodes confidence. You may know this other maker, and trust them; I don't. But showing photos of the old jacket gave me the impression that the new ones were going to be the same as those pictured. Caring about who made it, and being willing to trust a known quantity with a century of reputation vs. someone you may think is just as good isn't really all that hard to understand.
9. I'm sure you're right, that at the prices Schott is selling their jackets today, for them to do a limited run collaboration with you, the price probably would have been considerably higher than the $918-928 you were offering; of course that's why so many of us were jumping on this deal. With the Schott history, Schott model number, and Schott images, were we not supposed to think that this was going to be a Schott made jacket? Were we not supposed to care if we learned that it wasn't?
10. We're not all made of money, but we do believe in paying for quality, and we also believe in getting what we paid for. We're educated and we investigate. And things that you may not think would matter, sometimes matter a great deal to us.

Anyhow, I wish you all the best and I hope that the quality of this limited run is every bit as good, if not more, than with your prior runs. But with the return policy as it is, it'll have to remain to be seen. But by others; not me, this time I'll be content to sit out.

To be honest, I don't know what the right answer is for a business with its marketing message, if you own a product line and you contract with various people to make the stuff you put your name on, does it matter, should it matter who the people you're sourcing from are? I wouldn't say necessarily that Legendary were trying to pull the wool over our eyes by using their old photos and model number. Auto makers deal with parts sourced from various contractors, and they're fine as long as they're built to a quality standard and meet all the necessary specs. And if Legendary looked at it like that, I could see why they would keep the part number the same, and use the same photos.

But in this case, to me, it did matter, as it did to many of us here. But more than that, it was the uncertainty over the return policy, combined with the uncertainty of the unknown maker.

I hope I've been clear, I would have been willing to give the new maker a chance, even if they were unknown, if I knew with certainty that I could return for a full refund if not fully satisfied.

I think this is a fantastic post. Read it all the way through, and should be pinned somewhere on how to respond to borderline shady business practice (please don't come after me on that phrasing - it might not be perfect but it's hard to argue that they were being completely transparent).

That weird call you received afterward and those words for a forum that provides significant business in this somewhat niche market doesn't sit well with me, and I'm just watching from afar. Anyway, nice job, even if this is an unfortunate situation.

 

[Guppy]

I think this is a fantastic post. Read it all the way through, and should be pinned somewhere on how to respond to borderline shady business practice (please don't come after me on that phrasing - it might not be perfect but it's hard to argue that they were being completely transparent).

That weird call you received afterward and those words for a forum that provides significant business in this somewhat niche market doesn't sit well with me, and I'm just watching from afar. Anyway, nice job, even if this is an unfortunate situation.

Thank you, and I agree. I won't and can't say that Legendary had any kind of nefarious intent with the way they went about this, so I do feel like calling their business practice "shady" isn't quite right, but I know what you're getting at. I would call it "borderline at best".

It's easy for me to see how they probably weren't thinking about how what they were doing would be viewed by educated customers who care obsessively and have long memories and interest in the history of the industry they're in.

Of course they re-use the images; it's the same jacket, same name, same model number, why not? Does the maker matter, if Legendary feel it's the same quality? Why would anyone care?

Except, well, we do care. Because there IS a difference between a Schott made jacket and a jacket by an unknown maker. Even if the unknown maker is just as good as Schott, that remains to be proven to us, the customers. So of course an informed customer will take a step back upon learning that.

That change turned this from a mad buy recommendation to a tentative wait and see recommendation.

But I don't think Legendary was trying to fool anyone. It's possible that they could have, sure, but it's more likely that they didn't think it mattered, because it was THEIR name on the product, not Schott's. And (I'm speculating, but it seems reasonably likely) they must have some kind of NDA going on with their new maker, that they aren't allowed to disclose who they are.

Who knows why that is, but the optics of it can't work in their favor with a customer base who love to know everything they can. Which, with a limited run jacket, that's absolutely their target market.

Honestly, I feel bad for how this broke, much more than I am inclined to feel disappointment with Legendary. Seemingly unimportant details that would maybe matter to 0.1% of their usual customers, turning into what this thread has turned into... It's a shame, really.

I don't feel like there's a "bad guy" here, just a PR snafu that came out a tragic lack of understanding the type of customers we are.

 

[Observe]

Thank you, and I agree. I won't and can't say that Legendary had any kind of nefarious intent with the way they went about this, so I do feel like calling their business practice "shady" isn't quite right, but I know what you're getting at. I would call it "borderline at best".

It's easy for me to see how they probably weren't thinking about how what they were doing would be viewed by educated customers who care obsessively and have long memories and interest in the history of the industry they're in.

Of course they re-use the images; it's the same jacket, same name, same model number, why not? Does the maker matter, if Legendary feel it's the same quality? Why would anyone care?

Except, well, we do care. Because there IS a difference between a Schott made jacket and a jacket by an unknown maker. Even if the unknown maker is just as good as Schott, that remains to be proven to us, the customers. So of course an informed customer will take a step back upon learning that.

That change turned this from a mad buy recommendation to a tentative wait and see recommendation.

But I don't think Legendary was trying to fool anyone. It's possible that they could have, sure, but it's more likely that they didn't think it mattered, because it was THEIR name on the product, not Schott's. And (I'm speculating, but it seems reasonably likely) they must have some kind of NDA going on with their new maker, that they aren't allowed to disclose who they are.

Who knows why that is, but the optics of it can't work in their favor with a customer base who love to know everything they can. Which, with a limited run jacket, that's absolutely their target market.

Honestly, I feel bad for how this broke, much more than I am inclined to feel disappointment with Legendary. Seemingly unimportant details that would maybe matter to 0.1% of their usual customers, turning into what this thread has turned into... It's a shame, really.

I don't feel like there's a "bad guy" here, just a PR snafu that came out a tragic lack of understanding the type of customers we are.

Yeah I feel they're just not used to nerds like us going berserk over the details and weren't really trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. I do feel a little bit bad for my involvement in it and hope that this doesn't do any long term damage to them.

 

[Madhouse27]

I’m in sales. Things don’t always go my way. Win or lose, I always try to be gracious for the opportunity to present my case, respectful of my customers‘s concerns and appreciative of any business they‘ve done with me in the past. This isn’t the case with everybody.

I’ve spent at least $600 in the past few months at Legendary (two vests and some nice riding gloves). I was the first cancellation and provided a pretty gently worded explanation about the two different manufacturer‘s pictures somehow representing the same jacket. Instead of the word “deceiving” I used “confusing“. I complimented them about a recent purchase and wished them no hard feelings.

Their response did say that the jacket wasn’t being created by either of the two suspects from the pictures. Instead of trying to clear up any confusion about the Hillside and Schott pictures, she decided to say that because I don’t ride a motorcycle, maybe this jacket isn’t for me.

Umm…I just paid you $800 sight unseen for a motorcycle jacket, bought a $400 vest and $90 riding gloves (and another vest). You can shove your unappreciative, condescending comment right up your bait and switch (you know what).

I almost really blew these guys up, but instead reminded her that when shopping online, all we really have to go by is the pictures. If they are not of the actual item…why are they even there. I later received a shortly worded final confirmation about my refund. It was then sent out immediately.

I’ve got $800 again to spend on a jacket. It will probably end up being a Schott 641hh. I’m going to buy it somewhere else.

 

[TREEMAN]

“All that matters is they know how to cut and sew “ …That’s all that matters to him it appears …

 

[Aloysius]

I’m in sales. Things don’t always go my way. Win or lose, I always try to be gracious for the opportunity to present my case, respectful of my customers‘s concerns and appreciative of any business they‘ve done with me in the past. This isn’t the case with everybody.

I’ve spent at least $600 in the past few months at Legendary (two vests and some nice riding gloves). I was the first cancellation and provided a pretty gently worded explanation about the two different manufacturer‘s pictures somehow representing the same jacket. Instead of the word “deceiving” I used “confusing“. I complimented them about a recent purchase and wished them no hard feelings.

Their response did say that the jacket wasn’t being created by either of the two suspects from the pictures. Instead of trying to clear up any confusion about the Hillside and Schott pictures, she decided to say that because I don’t ride a motorcycle, maybe this jacket isn’t for me.

Umm…I just paid you $800 sight unseen for a motorcycle jacket, bought a $400 vest and $90 riding gloves (and another vest). You can shove your unappreciative, condescending comment right up your bait and switch (you know what).

I almost really blew these guys up, but instead reminded her that when shopping online, all we really have to go by is the pictures. If they are not of the actual item…why are they even there. I later received a shortly worded final confirmation about my refund. It was then sent out immediately.

I’ve got $800 again to spend on a jacket. It will probably end up being a Schott 641hh. I’m going to buy it somewhere else.

If the sizing works for you and you want to scratch both the cafe racer itch and the repro itch, Schott HQ has the CAF1 (repro of a Beck-Perfecto cafe racer from the 60s complete with French seams and other vintage accurate construction) on their sale page right now in a few sizes.

If you do plan to order directly from Schott, shoot me a DM. (Unrelated to the recommendation above that I’ve been making for a year lol, I just thought of this.)

 

[Canuck Panda]

641HH has both action back and underarm footballs though, just like the 613/618 Perfectos, but straight zip.
CAF1 is more like a shirt jacket right?

 

[Aloysius]

641HH has both action back and underarm footballs though, just like the 613/618 Perfectos, but straight zip.
CAF1 is more like a shirt jacket right?

It has a bi-swing back, just not underarm footballs because Schott started using those in the 80s or 90s.

 

[Madhouse27]

If the sizing works for you and you want to scratch both the cafe racer itch and the repro itch, Schott HQ has the CAF1 (repro of a Beck-Perfecto cafe racer from the 60s complete with French seams and other vintage accurate construction) on their sale page right now in a few sizes.

If you do plan to order directly from Schott, shoot me a DM. (Unrelated to the recommendation above that I’ve been making for a year lol, I just thought of this.)

There are several features about the Caf1 that I prefer over my 141 and (at some point) 641hh. I like the two front chest zippers better than just one and there’s something familiar and cool about that bottom panel on the back of the jacket.

The one thing that I can’t seem to embrace on this one (and some other vintage or traditional cafe racers) is that extra space below the main zipper. I get why it’s there to help keep the jacket from riding up on your motorcycle, but ascetically I just can’t deal with it. It can’t be just me that finds it kind of an awkward design.

I’ve had quite a few vintage jackets of this style come and go over the years. I still haven’t quite put together the magic combination of perfect fit, great leather and the ultimate design. I have an unknown maker R Sherman tagged one right now that checks a lot of boxes, but the leather on one of the side panels is weirdly thin and floppy compared to the rest of the jacket. I’ve been trying to stiffen it up with limited results.

I appreciate your offer on the Schott purchase. I’ll definitely reach out before I make any moves! I wear my 141 on the bike every day that’s not vest temperature. It fits perfect and looks great. I made the mistake of buying a 641hh (too small) but that was enough of a taste to decide that horsehide really is the way to go.