AHP91
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As a former resident of NYC, can confirm the sewer to be the upper level of Penn Station by 7th Avenue.Edsim is the leather supplier. I was wondering who the sewer is.
As a former resident of NYC, can confirm the sewer to be the upper level of Penn Station by 7th Avenue.Edsim is the leather supplier. I was wondering who the sewer is.
Edsim is the leather supplier. I was wondering who the sewer is.
I just chatted with Ren at Legendary USA again.I saw the screenshot but they quoted the part of the FAQ about returning non-Legendary products so right before that it says otherwise. Possibly the employee got confused.
View attachment 520414
A few quick shots of the Legendary Beck horsehide vest (cut). Could very well be the same leather that the Stallion will be done in. I’ve only had this vest about a month so its just beginning to get broken in but there is some nice character and grain starting to emerge.
Update (replying to my own post, past the 10k character limit):I just chatted with Ren at Legendary USA again.
[...]
We members of the Fedora Lounge, well, I guess we ARE a little weird, when you get down to it. But we're good weird. We know a LOT about this stuff we're interested in. We're probably harder to please than your average customer. But we're informed, and we share knowledge with each other. Stuff that wouldn't matter to a casual customer, we obsess over. Because we love the products.
Great post, and I love being part of the "weird fedora forum", lmao.Update (replying to my own post, past the 10k character limit):
I posted this BEFORE catching up with the thread. So we think it's EDSIM that's making this batch? I've never heard of them before, and I have no idea what they are like. Their website looks they are a generalist fashion leather maker, not a motorcycle-oriented maker. If that's indeed the maker, then I would have to see one on person and try it on before I gave an opinion on it.
Update 2:
I know I already just bought one of these second hand, but the prospect of 1.4mm horsehide combined with the 15% discount offer was enough to tempt me into placing a pre-order, after I chatted with Ren earlier this week and he told me that it was returnable for refund.
After talking to him again today, and he confirmed that they weren't being produced by Schott, AND that they were returnable for exchange or store credit only, I backed out and canceled my order. I would have given them a chance if I could return for a full refund, or refund less shipping, but to buy with the maker a secret, on the strength of their old photos showing the Schott made version from however long ago, I don't have the kind of money to throw around speculatively.
A few minutes after canceling the order, I got a call from someone at Legendary, I didn't catch the name. He didn't sound happy, mentioned something about several orders being cancelled, asked if I was part of the "weird" Fedora forum, and not understanding all the cancellations, and asked me why I wanted to cancel the order, so I explained to him that in light of the return policy and the unknown maker, I was no longer interested.
He didn't have much that he could say to change my mind, and they did cancel my order and refunded my payment. I'm happy about that.
He did try to say a few things: that a Schott made run would have cost double what they're charging, that it doesn't matter who makes them, because all it matters is if they know how to cut and sew, and that he wouldn't sell a jacket that wasn't built to ride in.
I imagine he's either reading this thread or will at some point. I want to be as kind to their business as I can, because even if I am not going to buy this jacket today, I'd prefer to be a customer in a market with as many strong options as possible, and I believe Legendary is and can be one of those options. I don't feel I got to speak eloquently or completely on the phone with him, so in the interest of helping his business do better, I'd like to offer a few pieces of advice and opinion.
1. We members of the Fedora Lounge, well, I guess we ARE a little weird, when you get down to it. But we're good weird. We know a LOT about this stuff we're interested in. We're probably harder to please than your average customer. But we're informed, and we share knowledge with each other. Stuff that wouldn't matter to a casual customer, we obsess over. Because we love the products.
2. I was very interested and happy to see Legendary bringing back the Black Stallion -- at first.
3. What soured me on buying this time around was the switcheroo from Schott to Unknown.
4. It's not like Schott is the best maker of leather jackets or anything, they're not. But they are COMPETENT at it, and a known quantity. They've been around nearly a century, and you generally know what you're getting with them.
5. No, not every jacket made by Schott these days is made in the USA. But every jacket I've owned from them, to the best of my knowledge, was.
6. I own jackets that were made in the USA, the UK, Greece, Japan, and yes even China. It used to be a sign of quality that something was made in the USA, but anymore, even that's a crapshoot. A lot of the old manufacturing know-how was destroyed and lost when companies moved manufacturing overseas to cut costs, and will likely never return. So the USA's once sterling reputation for quality manufacturing never did simply have to do with the geography. It had to do with the people, their skill, their passion for high quality. Starting to make something in the USA now, well, all you have to go on is your reputation that you earned from the quality of what you made. I don't know the reputation of an unknown mystery maker that you can't divulge the name of.
7. I would have been willing to take the gamble on the mystery maker, if the return policy was clear and allowed a return for refund. A policy for store credit or exchange only doesn't help me feel secure about taking a risk with a new maker. I've read the return policy in writing, and asked on two separate occasions, and I wasn't able to get the answer I needed to hear, consistently. Your staff need to know your return policy and be able to quote it without errors; if they can't, that erodes confidence.
8. The product pictures on your website showed the Schott made jacket, and when I found out that this run wasn't being produced by Schott, but by some other, unknown maker, OF COURSE that erodes confidence. You may know this other maker, and trust them; I don't. But showing photos of the old jacket gave me the impression that the new ones were going to be the same as those pictured. Caring about who made it, and being willing to trust a known quantity with a century of reputation vs. someone you may think is just as good isn't really all that hard to understand.
9. I'm sure you're right, that at the prices Schott is selling their jackets today, for them to do a limited run collaboration with you, the price probably would have been considerably higher than the $918-928 you were offering; of course that's why so many of us were jumping on this deal. With the Schott history, Schott model number, and Schott images, were we not supposed to think that this was going to be a Schott made jacket? Were we not supposed to care if we learned that it wasn't?
10. We're not all made of money, but we do believe in paying for quality, and we also believe in getting what we paid for. We're educated and we investigate. And things that you may not think would matter, sometimes matter a great deal to us.
Anyhow, I wish you all the best and I hope that the quality of this limited run is every bit as good, if not more, than with your prior runs. But with the return policy as it is, it'll have to remain to be seen. But by others; not me, this time I'll be content to sit out.
To be honest, I don't know what the right answer is for a business with its marketing message, if you own a product line and you contract with various people to make the stuff you put your name on, does it matter, should it matter who the people you're sourcing from are? I wouldn't say necessarily that Legendary were trying to pull the wool over our eyes by using their old photos and model number. Auto makers deal with parts sourced from various contractors, and they're fine as long as they're built to a quality standard and meet all the necessary specs. And if Legendary looked at it like that, I could see why they would keep the part number the same, and use the same photos.
But in this case, to me, it did matter, as it did to many of us here. But more than that, it was the uncertainty over the return policy, combined with the uncertainty of the unknown maker.
I hope I've been clear, I would have been willing to give the new maker a chance, even if they were unknown, if I knew with certainty that I could return for a full refund if not fully satisfied.
I agree, that would have been the better way to go.As I said, they butchered the rollout. They should have made a single test jacket with Edsim leather and by the Unknown maker. Take as many detailed pictures as possible, accurately depict stitching, hardware, the works. Post them on the website along with leather specs to instill confidence. Don't give it a Schott number to create confusion.
I think this is a fantastic post. Read it all the way through, and should be pinned somewhere on how to respond to borderline shady business practice (please don't come after me on that phrasing - it might not be perfect but it's hard to argue that they were being completely transparent).Update (replying to my own post, past the 10k character limit):
I posted this BEFORE catching up with the thread. So we think it's EDSIM that's making this batch? I've never heard of them before, and I have no idea what they are like. Their website looks they are a generalist fashion leather maker, not a motorcycle-oriented maker. If that's indeed the maker, then I would have to see one on person and try it on before I gave an opinion on it.
Update 2:
I know I already just bought one of these second hand, but the prospect of 1.4mm horsehide combined with the 15% discount offer was enough to tempt me into placing a pre-order, after I chatted with Ren earlier this week and he told me that it was returnable for refund.
After talking to him again today, and he confirmed that they weren't being produced by Schott, AND that they were returnable for exchange or store credit only, I backed out and canceled my order. I would have given them a chance if I could return for a full refund, or refund less shipping, but to buy with the maker a secret, on the strength of their old photos showing the Schott made version from however long ago, I don't have the kind of money to throw around speculatively.
A few minutes after canceling the order, I got a call from someone at Legendary, I didn't catch the name. He didn't sound happy, mentioned something about several orders being cancelled, asked if I was part of the "weird" Fedora forum, and not understanding all the cancellations, and asked me why I wanted to cancel the order, so I explained to him that in light of the return policy and the unknown maker, I was no longer interested.
He didn't have much that he could say to change my mind, and they did cancel my order and refunded my payment. I'm happy about that.
He did try to say a few things: that a Schott made run would have cost double what they're charging, that it doesn't matter who makes them, because all it matters is if they know how to cut and sew, and that he wouldn't sell a jacket that wasn't built to ride in.
I imagine he's either reading this thread or will at some point. I want to be as kind to their business as I can, because even if I am not going to buy this jacket today, I'd prefer to be a customer in a market with as many strong options as possible, and I believe Legendary is and can be one of those options. I don't feel I got to speak eloquently or completely on the phone with him, so in the interest of helping his business do better, I'd like to offer a few pieces of advice and opinion.
1. We members of the Fedora Lounge, well, I guess we ARE a little weird, when you get down to it. But we're good weird. We know a LOT about this stuff we're interested in. We're probably harder to please than your average customer. But we're informed, and we share knowledge with each other. Stuff that wouldn't matter to a casual customer, we obsess over. Because we love the products.
2. I was very interested and happy to see Legendary bringing back the Black Stallion -- at first.
3. What soured me on buying this time around was the switcheroo from Schott to Unknown.
4. It's not like Schott is the best maker of leather jackets or anything, they're not. But they are COMPETENT at it, and a known quantity. They've been around nearly a century, and you generally know what you're getting with them.
5. No, not every jacket made by Schott these days is made in the USA. But every jacket I've owned from them, to the best of my knowledge, was.
6. I own jackets that were made in the USA, the UK, Greece, Japan, and yes even China. It used to be a sign of quality that something was made in the USA, but anymore, even that's a crapshoot. A lot of the old manufacturing know-how was destroyed and lost when companies moved manufacturing overseas to cut costs, and will likely never return. So the USA's once sterling reputation for quality manufacturing never did simply have to do with the geography. It had to do with the people, their skill, their passion for high quality. Starting to make something in the USA now, well, all you have to go on is your reputation that you earned from the quality of what you made. I don't know the reputation of an unknown mystery maker that you can't divulge the name of.
7. I would have been willing to take the gamble on the mystery maker, if the return policy was clear and allowed a return for refund. A policy for store credit or exchange only doesn't help me feel secure about taking a risk with a new maker. I've read the return policy in writing, and asked on two separate occasions, and I wasn't able to get the answer I needed to hear, consistently. Your staff need to know your return policy and be able to quote it without errors; if they can't, that erodes confidence.
8. The product pictures on your website showed the Schott made jacket, and when I found out that this run wasn't being produced by Schott, but by some other, unknown maker, OF COURSE that erodes confidence. You may know this other maker, and trust them; I don't. But showing photos of the old jacket gave me the impression that the new ones were going to be the same as those pictured. Caring about who made it, and being willing to trust a known quantity with a century of reputation vs. someone you may think is just as good isn't really all that hard to understand.
9. I'm sure you're right, that at the prices Schott is selling their jackets today, for them to do a limited run collaboration with you, the price probably would have been considerably higher than the $918-928 you were offering; of course that's why so many of us were jumping on this deal. With the Schott history, Schott model number, and Schott images, were we not supposed to think that this was going to be a Schott made jacket? Were we not supposed to care if we learned that it wasn't?
10. We're not all made of money, but we do believe in paying for quality, and we also believe in getting what we paid for. We're educated and we investigate. And things that you may not think would matter, sometimes matter a great deal to us.
Anyhow, I wish you all the best and I hope that the quality of this limited run is every bit as good, if not more, than with your prior runs. But with the return policy as it is, it'll have to remain to be seen. But by others; not me, this time I'll be content to sit out.
To be honest, I don't know what the right answer is for a business with its marketing message, if you own a product line and you contract with various people to make the stuff you put your name on, does it matter, should it matter who the people you're sourcing from are? I wouldn't say necessarily that Legendary were trying to pull the wool over our eyes by using their old photos and model number. Auto makers deal with parts sourced from various contractors, and they're fine as long as they're built to a quality standard and meet all the necessary specs. And if Legendary looked at it like that, I could see why they would keep the part number the same, and use the same photos.
But in this case, to me, it did matter, as it did to many of us here. But more than that, it was the uncertainty over the return policy, combined with the uncertainty of the unknown maker.
I hope I've been clear, I would have been willing to give the new maker a chance, even if they were unknown, if I knew with certainty that I could return for a full refund if not fully satisfied.
I think this is a fantastic post. Read it all the way through, and should be pinned somewhere on how to respond to borderline shady business practice (please don't come after me on that phrasing - it might not be perfect but it's hard to argue that they were being completely transparent).
That weird call you received afterward and those words for a forum that provides significant business in this somewhat niche market doesn't sit well with me, and I'm just watching from afar. Anyway, nice job, even if this is an unfortunate situation.
Yeah I feel they're just not used to nerds like us going berserk over the details and weren't really trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. I do feel a little bit bad for my involvement in it and hope that this doesn't do any long term damage to them.Thank you, and I agree. I won't and can't say that Legendary had any kind of nefarious intent with the way they went about this, so I do feel like calling their business practice "shady" isn't quite right, but I know what you're getting at. I would call it "borderline at best".
It's easy for me to see how they probably weren't thinking about how what they were doing would be viewed by educated customers who care obsessively and have long memories and interest in the history of the industry they're in.
Of course they re-use the images; it's the same jacket, same name, same model number, why not? Does the maker matter, if Legendary feel it's the same quality? Why would anyone care?
Except, well, we do care. Because there IS a difference between a Schott made jacket and a jacket by an unknown maker. Even if the unknown maker is just as good as Schott, that remains to be proven to us, the customers. So of course an informed customer will take a step back upon learning that.
That change turned this from a mad buy recommendation to a tentative wait and see recommendation.
But I don't think Legendary was trying to fool anyone. It's possible that they could have, sure, but it's more likely that they didn't think it mattered, because it was THEIR name on the product, not Schott's. And (I'm speculating, but it seems reasonably likely) they must have some kind of NDA going on with their new maker, that they aren't allowed to disclose who they are.
Who knows why that is, but the optics of it can't work in their favor with a customer base who love to know everything they can. Which, with a limited run jacket, that's absolutely their target market.
Honestly, I feel bad for how this broke, much more than I am inclined to feel disappointment with Legendary. Seemingly unimportant details that would maybe matter to 0.1% of their usual customers, turning into what this thread has turned into... It's a shame, really.
I don't feel like there's a "bad guy" here, just a PR snafu that came out a tragic lack of understanding the type of customers we are.
I’m in sales. Things don’t always go my way. Win or lose, I always try to be gracious for the opportunity to present my case, respectful of my customers‘s concerns and appreciative of any business they‘ve done with me in the past. This isn’t the case with everybody.
I’ve spent at least $600 in the past few months at Legendary (two vests and some nice riding gloves). I was the first cancellation and provided a pretty gently worded explanation about the two different manufacturer‘s pictures somehow representing the same jacket. Instead of the word “deceiving” I used “confusing“. I complimented them about a recent purchase and wished them no hard feelings.
Their response did say that the jacket wasn’t being created by either of the two suspects from the pictures. Instead of trying to clear up any confusion about the Hillside and Schott pictures, she decided to say that because I don’t ride a motorcycle, maybe this jacket isn’t for me.
Umm…I just paid you $800 sight unseen for a motorcycle jacket, bought a $400 vest and $90 riding gloves (and another vest). You can shove your unappreciative, condescending comment right up your bait and switch (you know what).
I almost really blew these guys up, but instead reminded her that when shopping online, all we really have to go by is the pictures. If they are not of the actual item…why are they even there. I later received a shortly worded final confirmation about my refund. It was then sent out immediately.
I’ve got $800 again to spend on a jacket. It will probably end up being a Schott 641hh. I’m going to buy it somewhere else.
641HH has both action back and underarm footballs though, just like the 613/618 Perfectos, but straight zip.
CAF1 is more like a shirt jacket right?
There are several features about the Caf1 that I prefer over my 141 and (at some point) 641hh. I like the two front chest zippers better than just one and there’s something familiar and cool about that bottom panel on the back of the jacket.If the sizing works for you and you want to scratch both the cafe racer itch and the repro itch, Schott HQ has the CAF1 (repro of a Beck-Perfecto cafe racer from the 60s complete with French seams and other vintage accurate construction) on their sale page right now in a few sizes.
If you do plan to order directly from Schott, shoot me a DM. (Unrelated to the recommendation above that I’ve been making for a year lol, I just thought of this.)