Learning to Dance

[Paisley]

If these women would ask me for five minutes of help, I could take them to a whole new level of skill, which would get them dancing with better dancers and really snowball. yet, since they don't ask, and I don't volunteer, they go on the same old way.

One of my fantasies is to hold a class on little things that will improve your dancing 100%. I would do the following:

1. Fix everybody's frumpy, shlumpy posture.
2. Have almost everyone firm up their frame. One or two people in the class would need to be a little more flexible.
3. Have all the girls put their knees closer together.
4. Have the guys stop swinging their arms like they are conducting an orchestra.
5. Have everybody take smaller steps and keep their feet close to the floor.
6. Have everybody use their partner's weight way, way, way more than they do now. An awesome swing dance feels kind of like riding a playground merry-go-round. When you're doing it well (and fast), you and your partner would go flying in opposite directions if you let go of each other.
7. Have the guys let their partners style instead of leading one swingout after another.

There. Everybody's dancing better!

BTW, last I heard from Dan Newsome, he was in Seattle. Maybe he should hold a class like this.

 

[Paisley]

Leads: Are You Using a Light Pressure? If So, Please Read This

There are leads who aren’t exactly noodle-armed, but use a light pressure with their partner. I think this is a misguided attempt to be gentle with their partners: it’s usually gentlemanly types who do this. But the more you pull on your partner (that is, use leverage), the more she can pull on you, too. This lets her take advantage of physical forces that make it easier for her to do swingouts and styling and it lets her have an authentic bent-kneed, hips-out lindy stance. When you don’t pull on her, you’re giving her nothing to work with. She has to push herself out, walk herself back in, and it limits her styling. She also has to use her leg muscles to affect a lindy stance.

If this is hard to picture, imagine a pole dancer trying to dance without a pole.

With partners who pull, I can lindy for hours and wonder where the time went. With a light-pressure partner, I’m exhausted after two minutes.

The advantages of using leverage work in your favor too. When you use her weight, you can swing in and out with ease, do some styling of your own, and the dance is a lot more fun.

If you’re not sure whether you’re using the right amount of leverage, ask your teacher or an advanced partner to tell you if you need to use more. Since noodle-armed partners are the bane of a dancer’s existence, most people will be happy to help you.

 

[reetpleat]

One of my fantasies is to hold a class on little things that will improve your dancing 100%. I would do the following:

1. Fix everybody's frumpy, shlumpy posture.
2. Have almost everyone firm up their frame. One or two people in the class would need to be a little more flexible.
3. Have all the girls put their knees closer together.
4. Have the guys stop swinging their arms like they are conducting an orchestra.
5. Have everybody take smaller steps and keep their feet close to the floor.
6. Have everybody use their partner's weight way, way, way more than they do now. An awesome swing dance feels kind of like riding a playground merry-go-round. When you're doing it well (and fast), you and your partner would go flying in opposite directions if you let go of each other.
7. Have the guys let their partners style instead of leading one swingout after another.

There. Everybody's dancing better!

BTW, last I heard from Dan Newsome, he was in Seattle. Maybe he should hold a class like this.

Yes, all great advice. I love good counterbalance, especially fast. That is why it bugs me so much when I lead a swing out and the partner moves in a perpendicular direction or twists her shoulders so as to go slack between us. I think that half the fun of dancing is feeling that merry go round effect. I used to tell people that if they should move forward or whatever direction they are moving such that if the leader did not redirect them, they should go right through the wall. So many followers stop on their own, instead of being redirected.

Great advice all around, although i am not a big fan of women's "styling" I do think women should have great style, and should use it as much as possible, as they move through the steps. Extra time or beats to "style" is not my thing. But I do traditional up tempo, not the slower groove thing where styling is a bigger part. On the other hand, a leader should not leads swing out after swing out. I think there is a misconception that comes from the idea that a swing out is a basic upon which all lindy hop is built. there are so many moves that are not related to the swing out at all that were a big part of the dance.

Now, I love nothing better than a follower who can swing out with great style, do great switches etc. Even dramatic sugar pushes are fun, but it does throw me a little bit when i lead a basic east coast six count and the partner swoops into a deep big sugar push. However, i can recover pretty quickly.

 

[reetpleat]

There are leads who aren’t exactly noodle-armed, but use a light pressure with their partner. I think this is a misguided attempt to be gentle with their partners: it’s usually gentlemanly types who do this. But the more you pull on your partner (that is, use leverage), the more she can pull on you, too. This lets her take advantage of physical forces that make it easier for her to do swingouts and styling and it lets her have an authentic bent-kneed, hips-out lindy stance. When you don’t pull on her, you’re giving her nothing to work with. She has to push herself out, walk herself back in, and it limits her styling. She also has to use her leg muscles to affect a lindy stance.

If this is hard to picture, imagine a pole dancer trying to dance without a pole.

With partners who pull, I can lindy for hours and wonder where the time went. With a light-pressure partner, I’m exhausted after two minutes.

The advantages of using leverage work in your favor too. When you use her weight, you can swing in and out with ease, do some styling of your own, and the dance is a lot more fun.

If you’re not sure whether you’re using the right amount of leverage, ask your teacher or an advanced partner to tell you if you need to use more. Since noodle-armed partners are the bane of a dancer’s existence, most people will be happy to help you.

You are so right. As a leader, I like to use quite a bit of tension. Of course, if the follower is not giving it back have to lighten up. But I would explain it to a beginner this way. Give slightly more tension than you feel until you find yourself pulling her out of her normal stance or against her normal movement, then back off. You should be redirecting her energy and movement and magnifying it (each other's) but not pulling someone out of their normal movement or against their normal momentum.

Think of how they got that space ship to mars? by slingshotting it around the moon. The leader is providing the gravity, and the follower is the rocket getting pulled into the orbit, then gently redirected around the moon, and slingshotted back in the direction they came from. Hey, that is a great metaphor.

 

[Marla]

Paisley and reetpleat, you both give excellent advice and this discussion is really pertinent to my current question. How do you dance well with someone the first time you dance with them? A strong lead and a good frame for both partners is essential in this, it seems, but yet every time I dance with someone for the first time it isn't as fluid as with a regular partner. So how do you combat this?

 

[reetpleat]

Paisley and reetpleat, you both give excellent advice and this discussion is really pertinent to my current question. How do you dance well with someone the first time you dance with them? A strong lead and a good frame for both partners is essential in this, it seems, but yet every time I dance with someone for the first time it isn't as fluid as with a regular partner. So how do you combat this?

Practice practice practice. It is as simple as that. The nature of partner dance is such that it is designed to be between two people who do not dance regularly. In the vast history of partner dancing, the idea of a regular partner is pretty new.

So, keep that in mind. The dance itself is designed to allow for smooth successful dancing between two strangers, but only if they kow what they are doing. A man has to know how to lead it properly, and the follower, follow well.

Just keep practicing and seek out good leaders, but don't get too stuck on dancing with one person. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem

Also, if you see someone who is obviously a good leader, but you cannot seem to get it to work well, that is the person to ask why. They will probably be able to tell you.

 

[dakotanorth]

Dancing socially

Paisley and reetpleat, you both give excellent advice and this discussion is really pertinent to my current question. How do you dance well with someone the first time you dance with them? A strong lead and a good frame for both partners is essential in this, it seems, but yet every time I dance with someone for the first time it isn't as fluid as with a regular partner. So how do you combat this?

I felt it was time I chimed in on this too.
It is difficult sometimes to dance with a new partner, but generally the better that dancer is, the easier it is to adapt. This is simply because generally speaking, the better the dancer, the fewer issues they have in their dancing. Yes, they have their own way of handling some things, and there are different "dialects" of dancing, but in general they all revolve around connection, movement, understanding their "roles," and of course, the limits of the human body.
I think the "limits" are often applied as rules, but people never understand why- you'll often hear a teacher say "Always make sure you can see you elbow when you turn or spin!" but the reason WHY is because if you arm passes beyond your field of vision (behind you) you are most like overextending your arm, and you risk damaging your shoulder joint. Frankly, a lot of instructors may know this unconsciously, but they don't realize it enough to explain WHY They lay down that rule.

The general rule of partner dancing, at least in the context of swing, is to use your LEGS and FEET to move your BODY based on what the LEAD is leading. In open position, he is leading your BODY through your ARM; it's the telephone line, in short. If he successfully leads you to go in a certain direction, at a certain speed mind you, you should have the skills to move in that direction at that speed, until you are at the limit of your frame (connection.) Granted, the definition of your "frame" varies from teacher to teacher, but typically I've noticed the more skill you gain, the more relaxed your frame can be; you don't NEED a great deal of energy to get the lead's message. You also will learn how to turn correctly, keep on time, move in an effective manner, so you won't need your frame to protect you from injury- your body will already be in place, ready to go.

I also agree with AdamJaskie's point; while counterbalance looks great and has a definite place in swing history, it becomes twice as much work very easily. If the follow uses TOO much force, then not only are you leading her, you are also trying to keep her under control- think of the old game "Red Rover." When counterbalance is applied well, it works like magic; poorly done, it becomes riot control. I still prefer the piked look mind you, but that still comes from a solid connection at the body's core- the lower torso is stretched back, connecting your core through your arms to your partner's arm(s) to his/her core.

In short Marla, the lead is telling you everything he needs to say, even if he doesn't realize it- where to go, when to go, how fast to go, what to do while you're moving, how much bounce to use, etc etc. Each lead has his own unique style, dialect you might say (since dancing is a language) and much like any language, some people can only use poor grammar and vulgar slang. Quite frankly, YES, some leads will push you too hard and too fast; technically you should run like a maniac out to the end of your frame! However, use your better judgment and protect yourself; use your muscles more so he doesn't injure you.

Learn to use your ARM as the telephone line, your BODY as the part of you that is being led, and your LEGS and FEET to make it happen.

 

[Paisley]

Following an Unfamiliar Lead

I actually like dancing with guys who are just learning because it forces me to follow better. There's also a guy in the scene--a teacher and national champ--who doesn't do official moves, he just leads his own stuff. In both cases, I'm forced to pay more attention to what my partner is doing. The enjoyment-effort balance goes toward effort.

The most important thing is to always wait for him to lead. Don't make any assumptions. If you make a mistake, just keep dancing.

It's best to break in a new partner with a slower to mid-tempo song. A few other things you can try are firming up your frame a little bit, keeping your feet close to the floor, keeping your balance, matching his tension, and keeping your right hand out far enough on a free turn so he can catch it. In other words, focus on doing the basics well.

It's helpful for me to think in terms of following, not moves. Following is going where he's leading you: forward, backward, or in a turn, for example. Moves is thinking "this is an underarm turn...how did we do the underarm turn in class?" When you are following, you can do unfamiliar moves. You can dance off the map.

I've been dancing for eight years, yet not all of my dances go smoothly. The worst is when your partner can't step on the beat. You just have to step when he steps.

Leads, dance a few bars in closed position with a new partner to get a feel for how she dances. Be really clear in your leading, and don't force your partner through moves she can't do.

 

[Marla]

When you are following, you can do unfamiliar moves. You can dance off the map.

This clears up the myth of following for me. So that's how it's done!

 

[Paisley]

The last few posts are good general advice for dancing and following in particular.

With a familiar partner, on the other hand, it's possible to become lazy and think about moves, not leading and following. This might be why people who rarely change partners stall at a low-intermediate level.

But having familiar partners AND good leading or following skills can also make a foundation for creativity. See Does your Dancing have Enough Soul? when you get there.

 

[Paisley]

I also agree with AdamJaskie's point; while counterbalance looks great and has a definite place in swing history, it becomes twice as much work very easily. If the follow uses TOO much force, then not only are you leading her, you are also trying to keep her under control- think of the old game "Red Rover." When counterbalance is applied well, it works like magic; poorly done, it becomes riot control.

At one point, I had too much tension. A regular partner said something to me in a helpful way and practiced with me for a few dances. I appreciated it.

While I don't believe in teaching on the floor, letting someone know, in a constructive way, that something they're doing is making you uncomfortable isn't out of line. A reasonable person shouldn't be offended by this.

 

[Chas]

• Look at your partner, NOT YOUR SHOES!! Everybody who has ever danced has done this. Even the experts. Be aware of it.
• Smile.
• Keep in mind - even Fred Astaire, Ginger Rogers, Dean Collins, Jewel McGowan, Norma Miller, Frankie Manning, Verne and Irene Castle were all novices once. It isn't witchcraft. There is no such thing as a "person without rhythm". If you have a heart beat, you have a rhythm.
• Don't give unsolicited advice or lessons.
• Dance a lot (socially).

 

[Paisley]

Finding and Keeping the Beat

There is no such thing as a "person without rhythm". If you have a heart beat, you have a rhythm.

Some people do need some help finding it or keeping it. Since everybody can march, the rhythmically challenged have reason for hope. Some suggestions:

Listen for the drum or bass.

Listen for accented notes--that is, notes that are played louder than the others. Try to do the 1 count of your dance on an accented note. But don't think about it too much. It's a little like watching a Shakespeare play: try to grasp every word, and you'll miss the meaning of the scene.

In 99% of songs, the beat doesn't change. (If it does, it's a really obvious change.) There's always an equal amount of time between beats.

Once you have the beat, you don't have to keep finding it. If you lose the beat to a song, just keep going as if you were walking. If you were walking down the street to the beat of music, and you lost the beat, you'd just keep walking, wouldn't you? Same with dancing. If you keep walking or dancing at the same pace, you'll still be on the beat.

Keep moving during breaks and free turns, and you won't have to find the beat again. You can tap your foot or do some old jazz moves that are hard to describe here. I have one partner who does a small but definite push-pull thing, and another who jumps up and down and pumps his hand in the air like he really wants to be called on in class. In any case, avoid bobbing your head.

If you see hard-core dancers clapping when you're stepping, you're stepping on the even beat. You want to step on the odd beat, which is exactly halfway between the even beats.

Follows: if you're off the beat, and your lead lets you do some styling, you can make it last just a little longer to get back on the beat.

Leads--please add any suggestions you have.

 

[Brynne]

Hi! I was actually just curious about whether or not there are night clubs out there that are meant for "swing" dancing? There must be but I have no idea how to go about finding something like that. I live in the Lose Angeles area so I can only hope that if I'm going to find one anywhere, it'll be here!

 

[Paisley]

Dancing in Los Angeles

Some info in this thread. Lots of extraneous stuff, too--I'm afraid you'll just have to wade through it:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=42411

 

[adamjaskie]

I'm not sure what to add about finding the beat on the dance floor since I don't have trouble with it. Growing up with musical parents (mom plays viola, dad plays violin) will do that, as will a few years of piano lessons, and just listening to tons of music. I guess that's it---listen to lots of music. Whenever you're listening to music, take a few seconds and try to find the beat. Try to follow it for a few bars, just snapping, tapping your foot, tapping a finger on the back of your wrist, whatever. After a while, it should be easy.

Sometimes I have trouble figuring out how to fit a dance to the beat, but finding the beat isn't the trouble there, it's translating it into a dance. Usually that happens with songs that have a strange meter or odd tempo. Certain "types" of music tend to have tempos in a particular range, and tend to have a style or a few styles of dance that fit. Occasionally you come across a track that has the feeling that suggests a certain style will work, but when you try it you find that it feels slow and plodding or so fast you can't keep up. Try something else. Don't be afraid to stop dancing and take a couple of seconds to feel the music, pulse to the beat, and reset yourself.

Often I'll be dancing with someone who has trouble finding the beat, and what I'll do is really exaggerate pulsing into the floor so she can feel where I'm hearing the beat. I sometimes tend to drag the beats out a bit, especially with blues (you can bend the beat; kind of hard to describe and it really depends on the music whether you can get away with it) so if someone is having trouble with that I won't.

There are a lot of subtleties to leading and following that don't really get taught much. Everyone wants to learn "moves", and that isn't what dancing is about. Dancing is about enjoying your partner and feeling the music. Balance, connection, rhythm, and musicality are far more important than repertoire.

 

[John in Covina]

I find that teachers are constantly having to tell the students to be quiet.

Usually you pay for lessons, what's the sense of talking thru them. Sometimes the instructors will give free lessons, then it's a matter of lack of respect for the instructors and those who came to learn.

 

[Paisley]

All good points, Adamjaskie.

If the follower is following, it doesn't make a difference whether she hears the beat or not. She steps when he steps. Remember the deaf actress on Dancing with the Stars?

The mood of the song doesn't always match the beat. "Love me or Leave Me" is a sad song with a quick beat; so are some versions of "Summertime." "Let me off Uptown" is light and happy and sounds faster than it is. One thing you can do is make some of the movements bigger or smaller. Slower music allows you to make bigger movements; faster music means you have to keep them smaller. Simple movements work better with faster music. One of my favorite moves is simply walking backward several feet in a balboa hold. Hardly anyone does it, though. Another thing you can do is make smooth, flowing, downward movements to sadder or bluesy songs and make more popping, upward movements to happier songs.

I think of repertoire this way. Good mechanics are like good spelling, grammar and punctuation. Moves are like words. But good dancing is like good writing. When you have nothing but moves and mechanics, it's like a vocabulary list. You have to add some interpretation of the music to make compelling paragraph. And you don't have to use a lot of big words.

 

[Dated Guy]

Well, I have told the little lady about your esteemed thread, she is all frisky and rarin' to go now, I am possibly a tad reluctant, time is the bugbear here, but, we will endeavour to get a few lessons sorted out in the near future.
I will confess to being a bit put off by the Tango, Brit style, all that shaking your head, it would just give me a headache, although, the leg, stop/start manouveres are quite appealing
The wifely woman asks about a dance named 'Sirroc' I had a guess at the spelling, she reckons on it being a bit like 'Jive'. I don't know much about any of this, but, willing...wish me luck..and thanks.:eusa_clap

 

[Paisley]

Here's something about Ceroc, which is related to the jive. As far as I know, jive is done mainly by the ballroom crowd here in the U.S., but it's got a bigger following in the U.K.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Jive

Good luck to you and your wife! Enjoy!