It's about time we define "fedora"

[donnc]

A bowler has a sharply curled, bound brim, nearly closing in on itself at the sides.

To me, that's why a homburg isn't a fedora, the curled brim. Maybe I haven't seen enough homburgs, or to put it another way maybe there's some cross-over territory where a homburg brim can be bound flat.

 

[mayserwegener]

To me, that's why a homburg isn't a fedora, the curled brim. Maybe I haven't seen enough homburgs, or to put it another way maybe there's some cross-over territory where a homburg brim can be bound flat.

The early Fedora had a curled brim same as the Homburg along with a center crease. You see Fedora, Homburg and Alpine used to describe similiar style hats (soft felt, curled brim, tapered crown, center crease) in the late 19th and early 20th Century US newspaper ads RLK posted. By the way this only applies to the USA because the term Fedora was not used in Europe at that time and the Homburg (as in Bad Homburg, Germany) hat was Edward VII specific (soft felt, gray only, tall very tapered crown with center crease, average width brim with curl and no binding).

 

[rlk]

I thought the thread was to define a Fedora as precisely and consistently as possible, not "What might anybody perhaps call a Fedora at the moment regardlesss of whether they know anything about hats, their history or the historical usage of the name", a popular language survey.
These would not produce the same result.

If the latter is your goal simply submit a poll with photos to a sufficiently large sample of the population at large, and resubmit at regular intervals for tabulation and revision. Of course you will still need to decide how much consensus is necessary to determine your parameters[huh] .

 

[rlk]

The early Fedora had a curled brim same as the Homburg along with a center crease. You see Fedora, Homburg and Alpine used to describe similiar style hats (soft felt, curled brim, tapered crown, center crease) in the late 19th and early 20th Century US newspaper ads RLK posted. By the way this only applies to the USA because the term Fedora was not used in Europe at that time and the Homburg (as in Bad Homburg, Germany) hat was Edward VII specific (soft felt, gray only, tall very tapered crown with center crease, average width brim with curl and no binding).

The most overwhelmingly consistent element of the Fedora style in reference to hats is the Center Crease. In illustrations, commercial ads and popular literature, indeed this is the only descriptor that remains consistent from the first Knox "The New Fedora" of 1883 until hats went out of mainstream male fashion in the 1960's.
Because something is out of a particular individual's current frame of reference does not override the weight of history and consistent meaning and replace the terms fundamental definition. Most of the world's population would have no idea that Fedora is anything more than a Russian name(probably not even that).

Shall we attack Porkpie? The first usage of the word was for a hat with no brim. Perhaps it applies to the shape of the crown?

 

[donnc]

Perhaps we could have two definitions - the pedantic definition, and the popular definition.

 

[rlk]

Here's mainstream popular, Roget's Thesaurus:
Hat

note "soft felt hat....

These have some errors but give you a general idea...

Typical modern hat retail site:

Typical modern style reference:

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

You're all a bunch of Hat Nerds. And I love it! lol

 

[rlk]

Glossary excerpt from the UK

from hatsuk.com

seems familiar...

Here's the whole Glosary: http://www.hatsuk.com/hatsuk/hatsukhtml/bible/glossary.htm

Long list and no Porkpie or Telescope[huh]

 

[mayserwegener]

The most overwhelmingly consistent element of the Fedora style in reference to hats is the Center Crease. In illustrations, commercial ads and popular literature, indeed this is the only descriptor that remains consistent from the first Knox "The New Fedora" of 1883 until hats went out of mainstream male fashion in the 1960's.
Because something is out of a particular individual's current frame of reference does not override the weight of history and consistent meaning and replace the terms fundamental definition. Most of the world's population would have no idea that Fedora is anything more than a Russian name(probably not even that).

Shall we attack Porkpie? The first usage of the word was for a hat with no brim. Perhaps it applies to the shape of the crown?

I totally agree. The Center Crease is the overwhelmingly consistent element.

 

[gtdean48]

You're all a bunch of Hat Nerds. And I love it! lol

:arated: My son calls me that all the time, especially when he sees me in The Lounge. I prefer Hat Enthusiast!

 

[BanjoMerlin]

While an open crown fedora might resemble a bowler, the distinction is clear to anyone who knows anything about hats. A bowler has a sharply curled, bound brim, nearly closing in on itself at the sides.

Not all bowlers have a brim that nearly closes in on itself. Some are quite flat.

Which one is the ringer?

 

[BanjoMerlin]

I totally agree. The Center Crease is the overwhelmingly consistent element.

I agree. The Center Dent with side dents located towards the front seems the basis from which the other creases diverge.

 

[mayserwegener]

The one directly above "Which one is the Ringer?"?

Also it is easy to tell which are the modern Bowlers.

 

[mayserwegener]

I agree. The Center Dent with side dents located towards the front seems the basis from which the other creases diverge.

I disagree regarding the side dents. It is all about the Center Crease.

 

[BanjoMerlin]

The one directly above "Which one is the Ringer?"?

Also it is easy to tell which are the modern Bowlers.

Correct! That one is listed on eBay as a Bowler hat. The antique English bowlers are very interesting.

So, do we really even need a definition of "fedora" if only experts and enthusiasts will be able to understand the definition?

People who ask "What is a fedora" don't know. People who do know don't ask.

 

[mayserwegener]

I see many open crown Homburgs listed as Bowlers too. Usually it is easy to tell the difference.

I think it is important to understand the the defining characteristic of the Fedora (Alpine - Homburg) which is the Center Crease. I am not much interested in the uninformed masses.

 

[donnc]

I think it is important to understand the the defining characteristic of the Fedora (Alpine - Homburg) which is the Center Crease.

"Fedora (Alpine - Homburg - Cowboy)" you should say, if center crease is the defining characteristic.

 

[rlk]

Hats ain't trees. Trees are of a particular species by nature, not by human definition. Gotta do the reproduction thing, etc. A hemlock knows hemlock pollen from spruce pollen, whether we do or not, or no matter what we call it.

It doesn't work quite the same way with things of human manufacture, such as hats. What is or is not a member of that particular category of hats called "fedora" is entirely up to the speakers of the language. Some (such as many of us here) will have a more refined understanding, for sure, but we don't get to decide for everybody else.

Intended as a visually-based analogy regarding categorization and identification without knowledge. If you don't know(insufficient education or experience) you can't possibly begin to do it. The Botany is not the point. So far I don't think my hats have replicated , although it seems like it with the expanding space they now occupy. [huh]

 

[rlk]

"Fedora (Alpine - Homburg - Cowboy)" you should say, if center crease is the defining characteristic.

Partially OK but many Cowboy Hats don't have Center Creases(Open Crown or Telescope, for example). When they have a Center Crease they might be Fedoras. As mentioned earlier the Military Manual for the proper Hat mentioned the "Fedora Crease" as the only proper type. Many would think of that as a "Cowboy Hat". This is how a definition is tested.
I don't want to try to define "Cowboy Hat" visually.

QUOTE=rlk]Oregon. Military Dept, Oregon. Adjutant ... - 1900

[/QUOTE

 

[mayserwegener]

"Fedora (Alpine - Homburg - Cowboy)" you should say, if center crease is the defining characteristic.

See what RLK said. By the way I listed Alpine based on late 19th early 20th Century US info. This term or something similar was used in some parts of Europe / England at that time.