It's about time we define "fedora"

[buler]

No, I understand what was written. But a stovepipe crown, such as the Indiana Jones hat, does not have taper. Under the definition as worded, such a hat would be excluded from the definition. However, I would regard the Fed IV and their ilk to be fedoras. However the defining characteristic of such hats is a distinct lack of taper; they therefore cannot be considered "tapered crown(s)."

The Indiana Jones hat has a flat top with a right angle to the sides of the crown..... ?

B

 

[Wally_Hood]

First time poster in this thread.

In the 1948 film Fort Apache, John Wayne's cavalry officer and others wear a kepi style hat with a kerchief neck protection. Henry Fonda's character, the martinet Col. Thursday, asks him why the officers aren't wearing the standard issue hat "... creased fore and aft like a fedora." The story is based in the post-Civil War western territories, so unless it's an anachronism, fedoras where supposedly well known in the 1870s.
This adds nothing to the debate, but I thought some might find it interesting.

 

[donnc]

I think the primary victim of the taper thing is the porkpie. I'm willing to let the porkpie go, since it does after all have its own identity, but honestly I think the distinction can be kind of blurred in practice - at first glance, for me, it's an "un-snapped" fedora brim, and from there the crease is a detail, subject to some change as you wear and handle the hat.

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

Movies....

One bit of advice on movies. Never, ever imagine that they have the first clue about history!

That movie you quote... no cavalry man wore a hat "like a fedora" that was issued by the government. Kepis were issued. Other hats were mostly privately purchased. It wasn't until the 1890s that a slouch hat was issued by the government as far as I know. And as for officers ALL their uniforms and equipment was privately purchased with their clothing allotment money.

And as to those yellow neckerchiefs? They DID NOT exist. Cavalrymen did not wear a yellow bandanna. No bandannas were issued by the govt and all bandannas were privately purchased and that means that they were of all sorts of different sizes and colors.

Movies never, ever get history right. Hats are wrong, holsters are wrong, accents are wrong, historical figures who never met in real life are fast friends in movies.

Movies suck for history.

 

[Richard Warren]

I have difficulty accepting the concept that seems to be afoot that the same hat can be a fedora or not depending on whether it is open crowned or bashed, or whether I happen to wear it with the brim down in front.

This seems to create a definition of a hat with certain physical characteristics that is then worn in a certain style. This is contrary to the way definitions are commonly used. If the hat having the requisite physical characteristics is not worn with a bash and a snap brim, what is it?

Do we go into a store, see an open crowned Como for example, and say to the salesman, "Let me try on that innominate soft hat?"

 

[jlee562]

The Indiana Jones hat has a flat top with a right angle to the sides of the crown..... ?

B

Perhaps my terminology is off. In the Indy domain, the straight sided open crown shape of what is considered a "screen accurate" Indiana Jones hat is referred to as a "Stovepipe crown." My apologies if I have used the terminology in error.

Point being, I think un-tapered hats still qualify as fedoras, e.g.: Fed IV.

 

[Feraud]

One bit of advice on movies. Never, ever imagine that they have the first clue about history!

That movie you quote... no cavalry man wore a hat "like a fedora" that was issued by the government. Kepis were issued. Other hats were mostly privately purchased. It wasn't until the 1890s that a slouch hat was issued by the government as far as I know. And as for officers ALL their uniforms and equipment was privately purchased with their clothing allotment money.

And as to those yellow neckerchiefs? They DID NOT exist. Cavalrymen did not wear a yellow bandanna. No bandannas were issued by the govt and all bandannas were privately purchased and that means that they were of all sorts of different sizes and colors.

Movies never, ever get history right. Hats are wrong, holsters are wrong, accents are wrong, historical figures who never met in real life are fast friends in movies.

Movies suck for history.

That is a really good point. Movies mostly get the history incorrect. Then again so do artists. Wasn't it Remington's paintings that put the yellow bandanna around the cavalryman's neck?

Lefty mentioned casual marketing. Perhaps the stereotyping necessary for marketing is the bane of this thread.

 

[hatophile]

One bit of advice on movies. Never, ever imagine that they have the first clue about history!

That movie you quote... no cavalry man wore a hat "like a fedora" that was issued by the government. Kepis were issued. Other hats were mostly privately purchased. It wasn't until the 1890s that a slouch hat was issued by the government as far as I know. And as for officers ALL their uniforms and equipment was privately purchased with their clothing allotment money.

And as to those yellow neckerchiefs? They DID NOT exist. Cavalrymen did not wear a yellow bandanna. No bandannas were issued by the govt and all bandannas were privately purchased and that means that they were of all sorts of different sizes and colors.

Movies never, ever get history right. Hats are wrong, holsters are wrong, accents are wrong, historical figures who never met in real life are fast friends in movies.

Movies suck for history.

I think that's a shame, because frequently the reality is even more interesting than the Hollywood interpretation. For instance, the Untouchables with Kevin Costner was a fun movie to watch, and had great hats, but was quite inaccurate in many ways. You have to assume that unless it's a documentary, most movie versions of historical events are likely to be way off base. I suppose most history gets disorted anyway, just like the old "telephone" game.

 

[BanjoMerlin]

Actually, the contemporary movies made in the late 1940s and early 1950s might be the best historical evidence we have about hats and clothing of that time. Don't pay any attention to the featured characters who were dressed by the costumer, look at the extras who are wearing their own clothes. The variety of hat styles is wonderful.

The low-budget movies are the best. No costume budget so even the supporting cast wore their own hats.

 

[gtdean48]

...Movies suck for history.

Most insightful statement in this whole discussion!!! :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[Undertow]

...You have to assume that unless it's a documentary, most movie versions of historical events are likely to be way off base.

Be careful, even some of those aren't accurate!

I think we have to look at the term Fedora like a marketing professional. We can't define it too rigidly in order to allow for different styles which we will eventually exploit (porkpies, homburgs, tweed caps, trilbies, etc.)

On the other hand, we can't define it too loosely or anyone can claim they own a fedora, when in fact, there is a specific set of parameters that must be met (i.e. guys walking around with center dent sombreros made of fur felt).

So along lines with RLK, why not state the follwoing:
A Fedora is a hat with the following properties:
1. Soft felt, in one piece. (no sewing, no straw, etc.)
2. Flanged brim around circumfrence, and I would argue that it should be able to snap.
3. Tapered Crown (one way, or the other)
4. Appropriate primary crease (including center dent, teardrop, diamond, etc, all of which result from the center dent)
5. Ribbon of grosgrain, silk, cotton, wool or man-made material

I think almost all examples of a fedora we find would have these properties.

Anything else would either be called by another name, or a sub-genus (i.e. porkpie and trilby) of the fedora.

 

[danofarlington]

Be careful, even some of those aren't accurate!

I think we have to look at the term Fedora like a marketing professional. We can't define it too rigidly in order to allow for different styles which we will eventually exploit (porkpies, homburgs, tweed caps, trilbies, etc.)

On the other hand, we can't define it too loosely or anyone can claim they own a fedora, when in fact, there is a specific set of parameters that must be met (i.e. guys walking around with center dent sombreros made of fur felt).

So along lines with RLK, why not state the follwoing:
A Fedora is a hat with the following properties:
1. Soft felt, in one piece. (no sewing, no straw, etc.)
2. Flanged brim around circumfrence, and I would argue that it should be able to snap.
3. Tapered Crown (one way, or the other)
4. Appropriate primary crease (including center dent, teardrop, diamond, etc, all of which result from the center dent)
5. Ribbon of grosgrain, silk, cotton, wool or man-made material

I think almost all examples of a fedora we find would have these properties.

Anything else would either be called by another name, or a sub-genus (i.e. porkpie and trilby) of the fedora.

What we really need is a former hat salesman from the 1930s or 40s to clear up what they understood in those earlier times of the meaning of the word. There is probably some insight we could get. I'll bet they used the term somewhat loosely, and it resisted a defnitive snapshot. In a wider sense, we need a 100-year-old hat guy for an extensive interview on hat life then generally. Then the interview could become a video sticky.

 

[rlk]

Perhaps my terminology is off. In the Indy domain, the straight sided open crown shape of what is considered a "screen accurate" Indiana Jones hat is referred to as a "Stovepipe crown." My apologies if I have used the terminology in error.

Point being, I think un-tapered hats still qualify as fedoras, e.g.: Fed IV.

I didn't want to come back in- but...
Any soft hat with a creased crown is not a straight stovepipe cylinder. The German term for a Top Hat is instructive:Zylinderhut.(Yes some are actually tapered-but the construction is different(flat top too) and I don't think anyone will mistake them for a Fedora) This is the distinction I am making. It is also NOT a hemispherical dome shape. This is what I mean by "Tapered"

I have difficulty accepting the concept that seems to be afoot that the same hat can be a fedora or not depending on whether it is open crowned or bashed, or whether I happen to wear it with the brim down in front.

This seems to create a definition of a hat with certain physical characteristics that is then worn in a certain style. This is contrary to the way definitions are commonly used. If the hat having the requisite physical characteristics is not worn with a bash and a snap brim, what is it?

Do we go into a store, see an open crowned Como for example, and say to the salesman, "Let me try on that innominate soft hat?"

If we use this broad a definition anything with a brim is a Fedora and the hat body is a Fedora before any work is done. I'll accept potential Fedora.
How about," I would like that Como in Green, can you shape the crown for a Teardrop Fedora as well as a Porkpie? Can I use it as a Tea Cozy or a Lampshade too?"

If defined only by the brim you create even more potential problems.

 

[mayserwegener]

What we really need is a former hat salesman from the 1930s or 40s to clear up what they understood in those earlier times of the meaning of the word. There is probably some insight we could get. I'll bet they used the term somewhat loosely, and it resisted a defnitive snapshot. In a wider sense, we need a 100-year-old hat guy for an extensive interview on hat life then generally. Then the interview could become a video sticky.

I think it is pretty clear from the newspaper ads starting in the late 19th century.

 

[rlk]

Be careful, even some of those aren't accurate!

I think we have to look at the term Fedora like a marketing professional. We can't define it too rigidly in order to allow for different styles which we will eventually exploit (porkpies, homburgs, tweed caps, trilbies, etc.)

On the other hand, we can't define it too loosely or anyone can claim they own a fedora, when in fact, there is a specific set of parameters that must be met (i.e. guys walking around with center dent sombreros made of fur felt).

So along lines with RLK, why not state the follwoing:
A Fedora is a hat with the following properties:
1. Soft felt, in one piece. (no sewing, no straw, etc.)
2. Flanged brim around circumfrence, and I would argue that it should be able to snap.
3. Tapered Crown (one way, or the other)
4. Appropriate primary crease (including center dent, teardrop, diamond, etc, all of which result from the center dent)
5. Ribbon of grosgrain, silk, cotton, wool or man-made material

I think almost all examples of a fedora we find would have these properties.

Anything else would either be called by another name, or a sub-genus (i.e. porkpie and trilby) of the fedora.

1 and 5 are not correct or workable with your modifications.

1) Fedoras are made of other materials many of which have multiple pieces. I would not exclude straw or woven fabric and some felts are even made of multiple pieces. All involve some stitching. This is traditional and generally accepted. Its the shape that dominates.

5)A ribbon is a decorative accessory trim and is not a necessity. I have some with just stitching or holes. If I take the ribbon off do you no longer think its a Fedora(Far further on a limb than the Open Crown Debate)?

 

[jlee562]

I didn't want to come back in- but...
Any soft hat with a creased crown is not a straight stovepipe cylinder.

That is not my argument.

 

[mayserwegener]

Point being, I think un-tapered hats still qualify as fedoras, e.g.: Fed IV.

Point is that they have taper (side to side and front to back) before (edit -> and after) creasing.

The Fed IV after creasing.

Fed IV Side to Side Taper

Fed IV Front to Back Taper

Unfortunately I don't have an open crown photo.

 

[jlee562]

Point is that they are tapered a bit before creasing.

If by "taper" you're referring to the angle of the sides of the hat, I would have to disagree. My Fed VI was straight up and down on the sides and remains that way after creasing. If by "taper" one means that blockshape is not cylindrical ala a Top hat, then ok, I concede the point.

 

[rlk]

Point is that they have taper (side to side and front to back) before creasing.

In the case of the Fed IV after creasing.

Fed IV Side to Side Taper

Fed IV Front to Back Taper

Unfortunately I don't have an open crown photo.

Both before and after creasing-- it is never straight-- only more verticle in its average line than some other hats, and the width at its upper limit is significantly less than at the base of the crown. Blocks have some angle and a radius at the top they don't form caps or top hats.

 

[mayserwegener]

If by "taper" you're referring to the angle of the sides of the hat, I would have to disagree. My Fed VI was straight up and down on the sides and remains that way after creasing. If by "taper" one means that blockshape is not cylindrical ala a Top hat, then ok, I concede the point.

My photos are of a Fed IV. Yours might have a deeper crease but the hat has taper. If you open crown you will easily see it. Please take some photos (open crown and creased).