It's about time we define "fedora"

[Midwest Boater]

yes but opinions are SO much more interesting than science.

Oh and no i cant prove that either.

 

[W4ASZ]

You and your tiny friend are welcome to stay.

Now we must consider whether Loris Ipanoff or the Princess Fedora were actually wearing hats or merely had one of these perched up top.

 

[Chuck Bobuck]

....

Also, brims must be between 2 and 3 inches to be considered a fedora to me. Anything shorter or longer and it feels less like a fedora and more like some other class of hat.
....

I even have trouble seeing a Tribly as a fedora, I have to say. Those tiny brims just don't say "fedora" to me.

....

I have to disagree with the brim matter. Brims have been wide and narrow over the years. My dad wore fedoras from the '30's to the 2000's. They were wide, narrow, wide and went stingy in his life. I think it became accepted by men of his age because it fit the modern lifestyle. Trilby is an English term for fedora in my mind.

 

[rlk]

Well, they weren't my personal definitions, I was saying that if you were to say the word "fedora" to most people, what they would think would be one or both of those definitions: wannabe-hipster hat or olden-days hat.

Any better definition than those may be of interest to hat-lovers like us, but - in my experience - enthusiasts are given to arguing about fine details that are invisible to everyone else.

There aren't really any definitive answers to "what is a Fedora?" A Fedora is in the eyes of the observer. There isn't any hat-DNA, there's no scientific test to establish exactly what is or isn't a Fedora. So any debate is going to remain unresolved, and opinion is all we have.

There are some relatively definitive answers, they just won't make everyone happy, and the opinion of those with no particular interest in hats(or knowledge in many cases) is not relevant for purposes here. Not intended as an Elitist statement. Just imagine the consequences of using Public Opinion Polls as the basis for Science or Laws or consistency.

While I fully understand your two "definitions" they really aren't too helpful as such.

Hipster Wannabee- obviously a pejorative term, can certainly include styles that would not be considered Fedoras( Buckets and Caps For example).

Olden-Days- also would include Top Hats, Derbies-etc--again not Fedoras.

Definitions are really difficult huh?

If you want this sort of basis for a definition, lets take 10-20 photos of hat styles and vote F or NF. If you get enough consensus you'll have a generally agreed upon Fedora Lounge Guideline.

Or is its Fedora destiny pre-determined when it is woven or becomes a felted hat-body? Just textiles, or can metal or plastic qualify too? When does it transition to Fedora-ness?

We also have a USA bias-OK since its really the birthplace of the term(I'll credit Knox in 1883) if not the hat-and the only place it remained in consistent use(not too consistent).

 

[Mr Vim]

I like the definition of a fedora that is provided in the Indispensible guide to Classic Men's Clothing, a book that was recommended to me by many from this site.

"A fedora, is in fact, a term describing any felt hat with a snap brim... most fedora felt is made from wild hare or rabbit fur, but there is also wool felt."

The guide also goes on to state that "although a felt hat, a homburg is not a fedora, because it is not a snapbrim."

I am good with that, this book hasn't steered me wrong yet, and JJ Hat Center, Worth and Worth and a slew of others provided key advice.

But as my signature says...

 

[rlk]

I have to disagree with the brim matter. Brims have been wide and narrow over the years. My dad wore fedoras from the '30's to the 2000's. They were wide, narrow, wide and went stingy in his life. I think it became accepted by men of his age because it fit the modern lifestyle. Trilby is an English term for fedora in my mind.

Trilby has a narrower range than Fedora but always falls within its boundaries.

Brim width is less significant than shape. Few would argue for including saddle/taco shell westerns in the Fedora range or rigid flat brims. To the modern sense most curled brims would probably be disqualifications too(not traditionally though).

 

[rlk]

I like the definition of a fedora that is provided in the Indispensible guide to Classic Men's Clothing, a book that was recommended to me by many from this site.

"A fedora, is in fact, a term describing any felt hat with a snap brim... most fedora felt is made from wild hare or rabbit fur, but there is also wool felt."

The guide also goes on to state that "although a felt hat, a homburg is not a fedora, because it is not a snapbrim."

I am good with that, this book hasn't steered me wrong yet, and JJ Hat Center, Worth and Worth and a slew of others provided key advice.

But as my signature says...

This is 100% incorrect from an historical perspective and few would disqualify hats with identical flanging in the unsnapped up-brim position from being called Fedoras.

 

[Mr Vim]

I thought a snapbrim was a brim that could be snapped down, but not necessarily is snapped down?

I look to homburg's for that definition. It's not designed to be snapped.

and like my signature says...

 

[Mr. Gardner]

If you poke around here, there are some fantastic stingy fedoras, and I don't think anyone would debate them taking the name. I don't think that the cloth ones should be called fedoras (not sure why, but the distinction hast to be drawn somewhere). I think it has to be made of felt (although I would refer to a straw fedora, but not a cloth one), wool or fur. Well, theoretically you could make a synthetic, but I would rather not think about that.

Yes, the "cloth" hats (whether "stingy brim" or otherwise) betoken a cheapness that is simply not fit to call a "fedora".

 

[rlk]

I thought a snapbrim was a brim that could be snapped down, but not necessarily is snapped down?

I look to homburg's for that definition. It's not designed to be snapped.

and like my signature says...

Hats designed not to be snapped have existed throughout the history of hats and during most of the 20th century these were often nearly the same as the "snap-brims" with minor flanging differences. Sometimes bound and sometimes raw edged. They dominated until the late 1920's and have always co-existed in significant numbers since.

The first 40 years of "Fedoras" where almost exclusively up-brims and the first 25 years essentially what you might call a "Homburg" with a center crease and significant upward brim curl. The term was more applicable to the creased crown "Fedora Crease" than the brim particulars and that still is a major factor

1890's Montgomery Ward:

Mallory 1945:

Anything that doesn't look like a Fedora?

 

[Mr Vim]

I see, very interesting. Nice visual as well.

And the flanging is the edge of the brim, raw or welt? I'm still a bit unclear on that.

 

[rlk]

I see, very interesting. Nice visual as well.

And the flanging is the edge of the brim, raw or welt? I'm still a bit unclear on that.

Flanging is the shaping of the brim(curvature or lack thereof)as it is pressed on a form during the production of the hat or later renovation.

Hat Flange:

 

[Mr Vim]

Okay, that makes sense.

Again, nice visual.

With all this I've been learning and the fedora's expansive history, it seems that a short hand definition is not an easy thing to come up with.

 

[elvisroe]

A historical red herring...

Just briefly on the term "Trilby", there is a Trilby Station ("station" is Aussie for ranch) out where I'm from that was settled and named in the 1880s.

The Murray family that have farmed it for the last 120 or so years came from Ireland originally and have always believed it to have been named after the shorter brimmed felt hats the Irish settlers favoured.

If they're right it certainly dates the trilby back-a-ways [huh]

http://www.trilbystation.com.au/index.htm

 

[rlk]

Just briefly on the term "Trilby", there is a Trilby Station ("station" is Aussie for ranch) out where I'm from that was settled and named in the 1880s.

The Murray family that have farmed it for the last 120 or so years came from Ireland originally and have always believed it to have been named after the shorter brimmed felt hats the Irish settlers favoured.

If they're right it certainly dates the trilby back-a-ways [huh]

http://www.trilbystation.com.au/index.htm

Yes. The Trilby Novel(George du Maurier) and subsequent Play date to 1894 but are set in the 1850's. Not so different from the Fedora chronologically speaking.
The Trilby character is a half-Irish Woman.

So I suspect the Trilby Hat has origins in the Irish Tweed(sometimes called "Walking Hat") with short brim, while the Fedora originates from Central European Alpine Hats and the curved brim variant popularized as a "Homburg"at the time in some places. Both have basically similar forms. Both were examples of trendy popularising of existing traditional hats by Media and Merchants. The definition of each expanded somewhat, Trilby in the British Empire and Fedora in the USA with limited overlap.

 

[donnc]

This is bordering on philosophical debate!

Did you miss the bit about Platonic Realism? How philosophical do you like it?

It looks to me like there is no useful definition, that can also be defended on historical grounds. From a relatively casual acquaintance with the matter, pencil curls don't say "fedora" to me. If for no other reason, than homburgs already have a name - "homburg". Likewise the western side curl. So, no curl, and `typically' a not-narrow ribbon - that's what it means to me.

 

[rlk]

Did you miss the bit about Platonic Realism? How philosophical do you like it?

It looks to me like there is no useful definition, that can also be defended on historical grounds. From a relatively casual acquaintance with the matter, pencil curls don't say "fedora" to me. If for no other reason, than homburgs already have a name - "homburg". Likewise the western side curl. So, no curl, and `typically' a not-narrow ribbon - that's what it means to me.

A bit too personal. That ribbon remark is gonna get you in trouble for sure...

Not a Fedora for you?

 

[Mr Vim]

Watch out, he pulled the Bogie!

 

[DAJE]

There are some relatively definitive answers, they just won't make everyone happy, and the opinion of those with no particular interest in hats(or knowledge in many cases) is not relevant for purposes here. Not intended as an Elitist statement. Just imagine the consequences of using Public Opinion Polls as the basis for Science or Laws or consistency.

While I fully understand your two "definitions" they really aren't too helpful as such.

Hipster Wannabee- obviously a pejorative term, can certainly include styles that would not be considered Fedoras( Buckets and Caps For example).

Olden-Days- also would include Top Hats, Derbies-etc--again not Fedoras.

Definitions are really difficult huh?

If you want this sort of basis for a definition, lets take 10-20 photos of hat styles and vote F or NF. If you get enough consensus you'll have a generally agreed upon Fedora Lounge Guideline.

Or is its Fedora destiny pre-determined when it is woven or becomes a felted hat-body? Just textiles, or can metal or plastic qualify too? When does it transition to Fedora-ness?

We also have a USA bias-OK since its really the birthplace of the term(I'll credit Knox in 1883) if not the hat-and the only place it remained in consistent use(not too consistent).

My throwaway "definitions" were not meant as serious suggestions, just (as I keep saying) a reminder that - outside of hat lovers - no one cares.

You are correct that here on the FL, people do care. That's great, and I am, in fact, finding people's opinions on the question quite interesting. All I was trying to do was inject a little perspective into the debate.

 

[rlk]

I'm not sure a definition is even particularly useful here, as obviously conflicts arise however broad or narrow one is. This is why a historical perspective is instructive as a means of understanding more about hat forms and styles. Definitions are quite fluid when expanded to a more general population over an extended time period. I think this is a more useful approach than individual personal opinions about what they generally think of as a Fedora. Your observations are informative about current perceptions and the more widespread such opinions are the more rough "definitions" of the moment become altered. What's in a name anyway?

I still think my original definition is as close as we can get, including nearly all that might have the name and excluding most that would not.

Soft-a traditional broad category--excludes Derby/Bowler,Top Hats and Helmets. Most any textile can qualify as a material. Some rigid materials may share the form and be representations of a Fedora.

Tapered Crown(amount and direction secondary)--excludes the above hats again as well as caps,buckets, head scarves, beanies some Asian forms. Not generally spherical or predominantly cylindrical.
--Center Crease is fundamental to its origins and excludes some of the same hats again as well as some Western forms. Porkpies pre-date the Fedora as do rounded or Open Crown and really don't qualify. Without some crease restrictions-every hat body with a brim break becomes a Fedora.
Clearly there is some gray area as some creases with rounded center portions derive from a combination of the two.

Flanged brim around circumference. Again excludes rigid flat brims, floppy formless hats- Cloche,Bucket ,baseball caps lamp shades,etc.
--As we approach modern times, more dramatically curved brims are generally not perceived as Fedoras. This includes Pencil/Cigar Curls and some of the sweeping Western Forms(Saddle and Taco).
Brim width and binding not too important. It needs to have a definite existance and again 3-1/2" +(semi-arbitrary) certainly eliminates the fedora perception for most and enters the Western or Sombrero Range

The most general image currently is of a soft snap-brim of moderate width and curvature with a creased tapered(loose def.)crown and usually front pinches although I would now include Porkpie variants too. Most consider an Open Crown a Fedora in Waiting and would exclude many "Western" creases that share aspects of the center crease(Cattleman for example).

I give up now.