It's about time we define "fedora"

[Vic]

We're on the internet, where people can't even grasp the difference between you're and your and the vast majority of people think you make a word into a plural by adding an apostrophe and an S to the end of it.

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap lol lol lol lol lol lol

 

[BanjoMerlin]

I can't believe that we can't get further than soft, flanged brim, and center dent (which I'm still not buying, as an open crown fedora is still a fedora to me).

A few questions:

Is brim width an issue? I wouldn't think so, as long as we're dealing within reasonable limits - anything over 1/2", as less seems to be more of a "lip" and less of a brim, though this probably puts too much subjectivity into the mix.

Is crown height an issue? I wouldn't think so.

I can't believe that changing the crease in a fedora would "unmake" it.

"Not lacquered" pretty much eliminates felt hats from being fedoras. Without at least a little bit of stiffener you'll have a blanket sitting on your head.

I would submit that the crease is indeed important in defining a fedora. If an open crown is a fedora then a porkpie is a fedora too since both could be given a "fedora" type crease.

Brim width shouldn't be an important part of the definition. We already use the terms "stingy brim fedora" and "wide brim fedora" so it seems generally accepted that a fedora can have a variety of brim widths.

Crown height is not critical but an exceptionally high or low crowned hat would not look like a fedora.

When I convert a western hat to a fedora I lower the crown (from around 6" to around 4 1/2"), trim the brim to less than 3 inches. reshape the brim and add a ribbon - usually 1" or wider. Some still have a lot of stiffener but they most definately look like fedoras.

 

[danofarlington]

I was looking, without success, for a picture of Sarah Bernhardt in her role as Fedora and wearing her famous lid. I can't find it, but that is the only true fedora, and everything else is derivative.

There is general agreement among those present that the category is rather amorphous. What's wrong with that ?

The 1918 film "Fedora" is believed lost. In reading this thread I have joined it.

I thought rlk posted a photo of Sarah Bernhardt in her fedora a few months ago. It looked like an alpine hat.

 

[W4ASZ]

I thought rlk posted a photo of Sarah Bernhardt in her fedora a few months ago. It looked like an alpine hat.

Thanks. I found it, but it's Fanny Davenport as Fedora.

That may be as close as we can get.

Back to the chase :

Given that almost all posts here in the Friendly Confines describe hats with some specificity, such as Homburgs, boaters, OR clones, and so forth, why try to narrow the term fedora ?

 

[hatophile]

The problem with the name "cowboy hat" is that it depends on what era you are talking about you'll get a very different hat!

In the mid 1800s a "cowboy hat" was a large brimmed hat that rarely had any sort of crease in the crown. Then it was called a sugarloaf hat. It differed from a city hat (which at that time was either a derby or a topper) in that it had a much larger brim. It was also different from a farmers hat or what became known as a slouch hat, in that it often had a draw string to hold it on your head as you road a horse (but not always, of course).

But if you were to see a cowboy hat from 1860 it would not seem like a "cowboy hat" to anyone today.

During the civil war the slouch hat was popular. It is almost fedora-like in many ways. But it lacks the somewhat distinctive brim shape of a fedora.

By the 1890s we got the Montana Peak (some think of it as a Drill Instructor's hat) and cowboys started wearing hats we think of as cowboy hats today but there were still a lot of sugarloafs and slouch hats as opposed to what we think of as a cowboy hat.

But at the turn of the century we started getting "cowboy hats" more like we are familiar with today. The tall crowns the "V" shaped brims. By the 1920s the brims really got big as the hats we remember from the early screen cowboys.

Anyway, I'd almost say we'd have as tough a time saying what a "cowboy hat" is as we are saying what a fedora is!

Like someone said earlier, to quote the Supreme Court "we know it when we see it."

Not only that MV, a lot of cowboys wore derby and homburg style hats, so were those "cowboy hats"? Is an open road a cowboy hat or a fedora?
Maybe it depends on the crease, and how you wear the brim.

 

[danofarlington]

I was looking, without success, for a picture of Sarah Bernhardt in her role as Fedora and wearing her famous lid. I can't find it, but that is the only true fedora, and everything else is derivative.

There is general agreement among those present that the category is rather amorphous. What's wrong with that ?

The 1918 film "Fedora" is believed lost. In reading this thread I have joined it.

I have to congratulate you in any event on having created one of the few perpetual-motion machines in the universe in the form of a debate on The Fedora Lounge about the origin of the fedora. It is a discussion that will never end. May the theories roll on!

 

[Richard Warren]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the fedora got its name not from what the immortal Bernhardt wore, but from what the leading man in the Davenport production (Mantell?) wore.

 

[W4ASZ]

This could be the breakthrough we've been looking for !

 

[Andykev]

It is from a Play

The word fedora comes from the title of an 1882 play by Victorien Sardou, Fédora, written for Sarah Bernhardt. The play was first performed in the U.S. in 1889. Bernhardt played Princess Fédora, the heroine of the play, and she wore a hat similar to what is now considered a fedora. The fedora became a female fashion which lasted into the early part of the twentieth century. When the fedora became a male fashion item, it was popular in cities for its stylishness, ability to protect the wearer's head from the wind and weather, and the fact that it could be rolled up when not in use.

This whole thread is like trying to define a shoe. A fedora is just that: a particularly shaped hat, soft form (opposed to hard Bowler or Derby). It is not a Tricorn, a Beret, or a baseball cap. It is common language defined.

 

[scottyrocks]

To me, its materials and shape.

Felt, either beaver or rabbit.

Shape: approximately a 4 to 6 inch crown, at the front. The top crease is not nearly as important as the side pinch creases. They need to be near the front of the hat, and taper toward each other. The degree of taper is up to the wearer. Brim width should be between 2 to 3 inches. The ribbon must be of a thickness that doesnt scream western or cowboy if its too thin. I have a 2" brimmed Stetson with a 1" ribbon on it, and that is bordering on too thin a ribbon for what I consider fedora. I also have a Dobbs with a 1 7/8" ribbon. To me, that is bordering on too wide. My personal favorite ribbon width is 1 1/2".

The edges can be bound or not. That has no bearing on fedoraness.

It also matters to me not the stiffness of the hat, as long as it holds a shape.

 

[BanjoMerlin]

By pure numbers there were vastly more wool felt fedoras produced than fur felt and possibly more woven wool fedoras as well.

This topic is again showing that people want their own personal preference to define what a fedora is or is not.

If it walks like a duck...

 

[Feraud]

By pure numbers there were vastly more wool felt fedoras produced than fur felt and possibly more woven wool fedoras as well.

This topic is again showing that people want their own personal preference to define what a fedora is or is not.

If it walks like a duck...

Which numbers bear this out?
An informal browse of vintage fedoras shown on the Fedora Lounge or Ebay show an extremely small number of wool fedoras. And woven wool fedoras? Not sure what this is or how they outnumber fur felt..

 

[BanjoMerlin]

Which numbers bear this out?
An informal browse of vintage fedoras shown on the Fedora Lounge or Ebay show an extremely small number of wool fedoras. And woven wool fedoras? Not sure what this is or how they outnumber fur felt..

I'm not talking about how many survived, I'm talking about how many were made. Take a look through the Sears, Pennys, Wards and other mail order catalogs back then. The cheap hats were wool. Guys who made $1.00 per hour didn't buy $10 fur felt hats, they bought wool hats.

In the '40s when Stetson couldn't get fur they made Vita-felt hats of wool. "Mallory by Stetson" hats are nearly all 100% wool. Look for a photo of a tweed fedora. That's woven not felt.

 

[Lefty]

In the '40s when Stetson couldn't get fur they made Vita-felt hats of wool.

This is incorrect. Vita-felt is fur felt. The modern hats sold in Europe using the name vita felt are wool.

Here's the vita-felt thread.

 

[Feraud]

I'm not talking about how many survived, I'm talking about how many were made. Take a look through the Sears, Pennys, Wards and other mail order catalogs back then. The cheap hats were wool. Guys who made $1.00 per hour didn't buy $10 fur felt hats, they bought wool hats.

In the '40s when Stetson couldn't get fur they made Vita-felt hats of wool. "Mallory by Stetson" hats are nearly all 100% wool. Look for a photo of a tweed fedora. That's woven not felt.

There are no pure numbers or production totals to be gleaned from catalogs. None. Not how many made or sold, not a list of every company producing fedoras at the time, not an entire selection available from any one company, and certainly not the buying habits of lower income citizens.

Catalogs are useful but not for the numbers game.

 

[BanjoMerlin]

There are no pure numbers or production totals to be gleaned from catalogs. None. Not how many made or sold, not a list of every company producing fedoras at the time, not an entire selection available from any one company, and certainly not the buying habits of lower income citizens.

Catalogs are useful but not for the numbers game.

Where is YOUR proof?

 

[donnc]

Catalogs are useful but not for the numbers game.

If we never get the numbers, at least it's enough to demonstrate that 1) fedoras have historically been wool felt, not only fur felt, and that 2) the selection of vintage hats displayed on the Fedora Lounge site probably isn't statistically representative.

 

[Lefty]

How many fedoras are in this ad - 2 or 3?
The one in the foreground is somewhere between a C and a porkpie, with no pinches (if that, indeed, matters).

How about this one?

Under every definition here, there's at least one in this ad.

 

[Feraud]

Where is YOUR proof?

Listen buddy I ain't playing this faulty logic game.
The proof (or lack of numbers proof) is in the catalog.
You were the one who made this outlandish assumption-

By pure numbers there were vastly more wool felt fedoras produced than fur felt and possibly more woven wool fedoras as well.

This topic is again showing that people want their own personal preference to define what a fedora is or is not.

If it walks like a duck...

You go provide the proof to back up your assumptions made by looking at catalogs..
Show us the pure numbers you talked about that bear out your comment.

 

[Andykev]

HAT LIFE

Gentlemen, the HAT LIFE trade magazine/book used in the industry shows felt hat production by month, numbers, year, etc. I have a vintage copy from the 1950's....(sorry It is packed away during our home remodel).

The book is the Hat Industry "Bible". Stetson also has production numbers listed in some of the books on hats.

If you look at the old Sears catalog (I have three from the 1940's), it shows hats for men in the $4.50 through $15.

Some hat makers had "10, 15, 20" as part of the indicator of the hat quality. Those refer to the price.

Yes, a man DID spend that much on a hat. But most men had only one or two hats.

We are spoiled today, some of us have 30+ hats (or 60).