Is Hat Ettiquette Obsolete?

[Huertecilla]

The kindness is extended to men as well as women. It is a kindness, not a sexism. Me, for instance, I open a door at a store for many or woman, young or old.

Kindness is never wrong. Lack of that and helpfulness is breeding an indifferent society.

Again, any woman that uses this "logic" is an ignoramus.

And should be avoided by intelligent, emancipated, kind men.


As to the aircraft, I avoid those because of the utter disregard of rights and the unaccepable grossness of it all, from the presumption you are a terrorist to the disrespect of personal space.
I will NOT accept this so choose not to fly, rather than be trampled over. That is imo a win-win as the slow life alternatives have so much more to offer.

 

[Tomasso]

I can't imagine ever wearing sandals, but if I did, it would certainly be with socks. Unless I'd gone to the effort to paint my toenails and wanted to show them off.

Im glad you make the exception because your red open-toed pumps would look downright silly if worn with socks.

 

[gtdean48]

Ha... problem is The Ignored don't just disappear, the posts still show up with the "You're ignoring this! But go on, take a peak, remind yourself why you ignored this twit in the first place..." taunting.... lol
...

Endeavor to Persevere....

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Let me rephrase, it's rude to assume she needs help because she's a woman.

edit: Actually, to be the most precise I can be, let's state it as: some women today, will be offended if a male assumes that they need help with a heavy parcel. As in the example with the door, you open the door because it is courteous. Likewise, if you see someone struggling, you offer help because it is courteous. But the assumption that a woman must need the help of a man with such tasks is what some women today will object to.

While the intent of the action is courtesy, it may not be received as such.

Jlee, I see what you are saying here. You are merely stating the real world reaction of some women who perceive men who single them out for needing help just because they are women as rude. As I alluded to earlier, I don't come from a community that was part of the demographic that made up the women's rights movement of the 60s, so their "rules" for men is something that I wouldn't be familiar with. I personally don't see a problem with men singling out women for help, even if they don't appear to be struggling with packages. I should probably read some feminist blogs/sites to get some insight into how feminists view gender roles.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

You assume that someone needs help if you don't see them struggling with it? That's the idea. The assumption that a woman must need a man's help to accomplish a certain task is viewed as sexist, and actions that stem from that assumption are seen by rude (by those who hold that view, obviously).

I would agree that it would be sexist when it comes to matters of intellectual abilities. Of course a man should not assume that women are intellectually inferior to the point where we would need help to complete college degrees, perform well on jobs, etc.... However when it comes to physical abilities..physical strength...we are inferior to men and there is nothing wrong with that, imo.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Carmel Smoothie, if you are anything like how you appear in type, I can see why men treat you like a lady... You really are one, and I digitally tip my hat to you!

Thank you! Now I can say that I have been doffed in the digital world as well as in the physical world. Lucky me!

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Nono, sorry for the confusion
It was not a translation, but a different observation.

The in english rather less catching translation of the personal lema is
´From vicious women stay,
best very far away.´

I may shortly start another topic on the hat shopping date theme.
In the aftermath of the Málaga outing I wrote to you that I had met a woman quite knowledgeable on hats though she does not wear them
I went out with her last friday and will see her again tomorrow evening. We had too much of a good time conversing about other things but what she casually observed about ceremonial hats already went further than mý admittedly limited hat knowledge.
Depending on various variablea we máy visit a famous millinery; one off women´s hats.

The lady is btw totally emancipated, independent, successfull and also very feminine, anti-feminist and appreciative of a courtuous man. On saying goodby friday we walked down rather high and steep stairs thús I offered her my arm. I did not assume she was incompetent or needed help walking on her elegant half high heeled shoes but simply tried to be níce by providing extra balance which she gracefully appreciated. Emancipated, nót vicious, highly desireable company.

I am not entirely clear about how much time she has but have arranged my agenda to be open ended so we will have time enough to possibly get to hats.

Please do provide pics of your shopping trip with this fashionable woman if you can! Yes, a man should offer his arm to women to help them walk, even if they do not appear to be having a hard time walking. I would wager that only hard core feminists would take offense to such a gesture.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Ah yes I was waitng for someone like you to come along.

Just like you stated about a man giving you up his seat on a bus etc etc.
There are still women ( and men) who can appreciate good manners and saying thank you to a man who tips his hat ,offers his seat ,is willing to help carry a bunble etc etc etc. is a woman with "class" because she accepts his token of respect for the finer sex and doesn't get a case of the a** because a man was trying to be polite and have good manners and show a little "class".

All this bugaboo about is it dead or it it not is all a bunch of malarkey if I do it and you notice it then it is not dead!

Thanks for weighting in and making it so crystial clear and if I may be so polite as to say thank you .

All the Best ,Fashion Frank

Thank you Frank. I take public transit a lot and I always offer to give up my seat to the elderly and pregnant women and men are always offering their seat to me and I know they are only doing it because I am a woman. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

A few anecdote about helping out someone who needs it:

Being on an airplane often brings out the worst in people, and this is especially true when dealing with carry-on luggage. I regularly encounter people, not just females, but often they are, who struggle to lift their bag into the overhead. Since I am taller than most, and the overhead is not actually over my head, I offer assistance when it looks like it would be helpful (not just to said person, but for everyone who is waiting for said person to sit down). People are often annoyed that help is offered, and insist "no, I got it" then promptly drop their bag onto some poor guy sitting in the next row. More than once have I had a bag dropped on my head, and once, after a women refused help (and acted put off by the suggestion that she needed it), she dropped her bag into my face and broke my glasses. She did not offer an apology, only cemented her position that she didn't need help, while I sat there in my seat bleeding from my face and out a $300 pair of glasses.

Hudson thanks for using this as an example. If there is any time I am grateful for assistance from men is 1. When I am trying to hoist my heavy carry on up to the overhead compartment on the plane. 2. When I am trying to hoist my heavy luggage up those steep stairs on the Amtrak train. Assistance from men comes in handy when traveling as I pack heavy! The men who offer their help rightly assume that as a woman I do not have the upper body strength of a man so they offer to help, even when I don't look like I'm struggling.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Hmm, I would never stand up for a woman or offer to help a woman with anything as an automatic convention. They are adults and can well manage without being infantilised by men. I would offer a frail, aged person a seat or open a door for them. Having worked and run services in the disability sector for many years I have also learned that offering assistance to a person with a disability is often seen as patronising - again they are adults and we shouldn't project our need to be helpful on them. If someone, anyone, appears to be struggling, you can always ask if they need help. As for hats, I wear them, that's it. I know not to wear them in a church, a place I would attend rarely. Other than that I don't want any guidelines.

I get the patronizing bit. I have offered my seat to older people who strongly refused to take the seat. I had a sense that they knew that I was only offering them my seat because they were elderly. And they were right. However, how was I to know that they were unlike many other elderly people who acknowledge the social rules between young and old by gladly taking the seat? So, do I stop offering my seat to the elderly and pregnant in fear of being looked at as patronizng? Because after all, I AM offering them my seat on the basis of them being elderly and pregnant. But then I will be offending those pregnant and elderly people who would expect an able bodied person such as myself to give my seat up. Either way you cannot win so I think people should keep on displaying the good manners that their families instilled in them and the recipients of these good manners who take offense should just go and kick rocks

 

[Mystic]

Sandals and socks, painted toe nails, giving up seats, kissing hands, bowing, tipping, doffing, not doffing but tipping and ....

I may just leave my hat at home next time......it's all so confusing....

 

[Mr Oldschool]

Such a sad world to live in where acts of courtesy are seen as offensive...

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Such a sad world to live in where acts of courtesy are seen as offensive...

I think it's an overreaction to sexism that occurred in the past. I think we can all agree that women were relegated to second class status in many areas of life (and still are in some cases) so of course we should all try to right past wrongs by doing our best to ensure gender equality. I think it's only the feminist extremists who would look at man helping a woman because she is a woman as a form of sexism. It seems to me that a lot of women will understand that men have a duty to women because they are women. At least I hope so.

 

[Mr Oldschool]

I think it's an overreaction to sexism that occurred in the past. I think we can all agree that women were relegated to second class status in many areas of life (and still are in some cases) so of course we should all try to right past wrongs by doing our best to ensure gender equality. I think it's only the feminist extremists who would look at man helping a woman because she is a woman as a form of sexism. It seems to me that a lot of women will understand that men have a duty to women because they are women. At least I hope so.

Indeed. As is my general aversion to "feminism" a reaction to the extremists. Radical feminism is quite different from the more general notion of gender equality, and seems more rooted in hatred of men and holding all men responsible for the actions of a specific group- the over-grown boys who didn't know how to behave themselves.

As a loving husband and devoted father of two daughters, I'm naturally in favor of treating women equally. Much of the history that my daughters study covers early women's lib movement icons, such as Susan B Anthony and Sojourner Truth, as well as a diverse spread of minorities. I think these are important to study, but extending their message into the realm of hatred corrupts what they worked for.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Indeed. As is my general aversion to "feminism" a reaction to the extremists. Radical feminism is quite different from the more general notion of gender equality, and seems more rooted in hatred of men and holding all men responsible for the actions of a specific group- the over-grown boys who didn't know how to behave themselves.

As a loving husband and devoted father of two daughters, I'm naturally in favor of treating women equally. Much of the history that my daughters study covers early women's lib movement icons, such as Susan B Anthony and Sojourner Truth, as well as a diverse spread of minorities. I think these are important to study, but extending their message into the realm of hatred corrupts what they worked for.

Well stated. I think it's human nature for groups that have been oppressed to sometimes go overboard in trying to reverse the oppression and preserve their right to respect. It's a defense mechanism, imo.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I get the patronizing bit. I have offered my seat to older people who strongly refused to take the seat. I had a sense that they knew that I was only offering them my seat because they were elderly. And they were right. However, how was I to know that they were unlike many other elderly people who acknowledge the social rules between young and old by gladly taking the seat? So, do I stop offering my seat to the elderly and pregnant in fear of being looked at as patronizng? Because after all, I AM offering them my seat on the basis of them being elderly and pregnant. But then I will be offending those pregnant and elderly people who would expect an able bodied person such as myself to give my seat up. Either way you cannot win so I think people should keep on displaying the good manners that their families instilled in them and the recipients of these good manners who take offense should just go and kick rocks

I think it's pretty clear and it's not about winning or losing. As I said, you offer to help someone who is frail and/or appreciation to struggle. And get permission first. But you don't help someone based on their gender alone. A pregnant or elderly person should expect to be offered a seat or some assistance. A woman, should not expect assistance or special treatment just because she is a woman, I find that medieval and, as you say patronizing. But this may be in part cultural, in Australia etiquette and the cultural norms are different.

 

[Mr Oldschool]

Honestly, there are plenty of times where I will stand and offer my seat to women when there aren't any more seats left in the room because I feel like a cad or a bum if I am sitting while a woman is standing. It really does come down to how I was raised, because I don't feel comfortable with having the last seat and leaving others standing. That feeling is stronger with regard to women and the elderly or infirm. I think if I am in a room full of guys and there is not enough seats for everybody, I would probably prefer to stand then too. It doesn't happen too often that way, perhaps because most of my situations that come up are where I can get another chair if I want to, and so could anyone else, but it seems rude to make a woman have to do that. Un-chivalrous if you will. Jeez, these days people act like chivalry is a bad thing. It's a code of good conduct that was invented to keep brutes in line, and it worked. It still would if people would take the chip off their shoulders...

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

A woman, should not expect assistance or special treatment just because she is a woman, I find that medieval and, as you say patronizing. But this may be in part cultural

Yes, I think my disagreement with this sentiment is cultural. We weren't part of the American Women's Rights Movement, so whatever new rules of etiquette that came about because of that struggle, I am totally oblivious to..After all, I come from a working class background....and of course, it depends on what type of assistance or special treatment we're talking. In the corporate world, women shouldn't be paid more than men and vice versa for the same position, for example. A male passenger on a train offering his seat to the lone woman standing despite the fact that there are 5 other men standing? Absolutely.

 

[Mystic]

Such a sad world to live in where acts of courtesy are seen as offensive...

Everything is offensive to somebody somewhere....

 

[fashion frank]

Show Some Class

Such a sad world to live in where acts of courtesy are seen as offensive...

+1 + 1 a big 2 too you my good man !

Ettiquette may be dead to some people but not to me :eusa_clap

Also a tip of my hat to you Caramel Smoothie ,a true lady with class and grace!

Now check this out

This is a picture from the main drag where I live ,circa 1906 and as we all know the exposure had to be long enough on those old cameras to get an image on a glass negative.
That being said if you look at the picture and right where the blurry trolley car is ,if you look right to the right of the trolley car you see a man in a straw boater "tipping " his straw hat to a "ghost" woman ( ghost as in she was moving to fast for the exposure to capture her image) in politeness.

http://www.shorpy.com/node/10616?size=_original#caption

I can just imagine him saying something to the effect of " good day madam " and perhaps her replying to him " good day to you sir " .
I would like to think about what would have happened in such instance's ?

Perhaps they might have even stopped and started a casual conversation " say isnt it a lovely day today " , or " gee your bonnett looks swell' .
Perhaps they might even have started a relationship or courtship who knows?

I say this because nowadays I see people walking with their face in a screen, earphones in their ears, sunglasses on their faces etc shut off and closed off to the world around them.
The point that I am trying to makes is that there used to be personal and "human" interaction with people such as doffing and or tipping of a hat and whatever would follow.

The lack of that is part of the problem in regards to the sinking of manners and things like ettiquette, so go on telling me all about how hat ettiquette is "dead" but as I stated at the start , "it's not dead to me " and so as far as I'm concerned I will continue to practice it and spread it around,as well as some manners and some class !

All the Best ,Fashion Frank