Is chivalry dead?

[sheeplady]

I'm pretty sure that any woman who is rude to a man opening a door for her (assuming the man's intentions were actually chivalrous) isn't really informed by feminism but by rudeness. One woman I know who prefers to open doors for herself, simply says "No, thank you. I'd prefer to open the door for myself."

If a man is offended by a simple "No, thank you" I fear he's pretty rude himself.

I'm pretty sure a woman who is so rude at having a door opened for her is the type of woman who 70 years ago would have been offended and rude to a man for NOT opening a door if he failed to. Rudeness is rudeness, regardless of decade.

 

[MikeBravo]

I echo your sentiments. All too often, I have held a door open for a woman, and they just walk by like it was expected, without a courteous thank you. More than once I've then said "your welcome".

This might sound harsh, but if you're doing it to get a "thank you", then you're doing it for the wrong reason.

I do it because I was raised to be a gentleman and to have consideration for others. I don't do it to be thanked (although it is nice to get one). It is now something I do naturally.

Done properly, it should not be done announced with an "Allow me, Ma'am", but with silence and a minimum of fuss.

I don't know if the lady in question was being sarcastic, however saying "You're welcome" without being thanked may be taken as sarcasm.

She may just have been offended at being called "Ma'am"

 

[Stray Cat]

Done properly, it should not be done announced with an "Allow me, Ma'am", but with silence and a minimum of fuss.

..and replied by a simple nod of appreciation. :nod:
No fuss.
No drama.
It's just a door.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Jeeze offended by being called Ma'am. What a confusing hardcore world this is becoming. I can imagine offence if I said.."Here you go,Honey or Sweetie"..but a generic title of respect? I usually say nothing..only maybe smile..but please come on..it's getting way to touchy trying to make a nicety an insult..!!

 

[TheSacredFemme]

I don't think it's dead, but I do find it a bit dated to expect a man to do it. Common courtesy to me dictates whoever gets to the door first holds it open for those that follow- whether male, female or in between.

I have this weird idea in my head that women are capable of doing anything that men can do. Including, shock horror, holding open a door. I only get offended when someone literally just lets a door fall on your face.

 

[Stray Cat]

Jeeze offended by being called Ma'am. What a confusing hardcore world this is becoming. I can imagine offence if I said.."Here you go,Honey or Sweetie"..but a generic title of respect? I usually say nothing..only maybe smile..but please come on..it's getting way to touchy trying to make a nicety an insult..!!

Well, it's all that new "we have no idea what we're doing - we call ourselves Feminists" to blame.
If they could only DEFINE what is it that they want, do or care about it'll be so much easier.

 

[Stray Cat]

someone literally just lets a door fall on your face.

Now that's just plain rude. :nono:

 

[MikeBravo]

Jeeze offended by being called Ma'am. What a confusing hardcore world this is becoming. I can imagine offence if I said.."Here you go,Honey or Sweetie"..but a generic title of respect? I usually say nothing..only maybe smile..but please come on..it's getting way to touchy trying to make a nicety an insult..!!

One never knows for sure. What is important is how the gentleman reacts to the other person, he doesn't judge a person by what they find offensive, he deals with it as a gentleman. As I'm sure most of us do.

 

[GHT]

Jeeze offended by being called Ma'am. What a confusing hardcore world this is becoming. I can imagine offence if I said.."Here you go,Honey or Sweetie"..but a generic title of respect? I usually say nothing..only maybe smile..but please come on..it's getting way to touchy trying to make a nicety an insult..!!

Well said, I find the Ma'am title, for a lady, easy, I've always used it, although I do agree with my wife, who explains that it doesn't have that feminine ring to it that the French have, when they use the term: Madame. Shortening the first letter 'a' and lengthening the second.But that aside, how should one address a female?
Sir, seems to be in common use still, it's used throughout the English speaking world, when addressing a gentleman, but we seem to stumble with any form of formal address with ladies. HoosierDaddy makes a point about Honey or Sweetie. Here in the UK, you will regularly hear a man addressed as Sir, no problem. But the ladies will almost be called: 'Love.'
No insult is intended, but it does sound patronising. The woman is not your Love, and I would have accepted my rebuke, at the door incident, with a humble apology, had I been so thoughtless.

 

[lolly_loisides]

.......HoosierDaddy makes a point about Honey or Sweetie. Here in the UK, you will regularly hear a man addressed as Sir, no problem. But the ladies will almost be called: 'Love.'
No insult is intended, but it does sound patronising. The woman is not your Love, and I would have accepted my rebuke, at the door incident, with a humble apology, had I been so thoughtless.

Funny you should mention that, yesterday while I was looking for a new car I was repeatedly called "Darl" (short for darling) by the salesman. I suppose I just should have told him I wasn't his darling the first time he said it, but after about the third time I made sure that I called him something as silly & inappropriate in response. For example, when I was taking a test drive of the car he said, "turn left here Darl", so I said "Sure thing love" "Do a you turn here darl", "Ok sweetie"...anyway he got the hint & stopped.

He wasn't an older man either, he was about my age, so really no excuse (not that there's ever an excuse for patronising behaviour).

 

[loosebolts]

not dead but an under appreciated quality by the pop culture masses, most guys that have it are view as strange but some still do. (for the record I'm 28) its strange how in my age category manners can be viewed as a weakness or soft handed so to speak. its sad. but i like a tie and button up shirt. the lot of them can keep the language and baseball caps.

 

[sheeplady]

Well said, I find the Ma'am title, for a lady, easy, I've always used it, although I do agree with my wife, who explains that it doesn't have that feminine ring to it that the French have, when they use the term: Madame. Shortening the first letter 'a' and lengthening the second.But that aside, how should one address a female?
Sir, seems to be in common use still, it's used throughout the English speaking world, when addressing a gentleman, but we seem to stumble with any form of formal address with ladies. HoosierDaddy makes a point about Honey or Sweetie. Here in the UK, you will regularly hear a man addressed as Sir, no problem. But the ladies will almost be called: 'Love.'
No insult is intended, but it does sound patronising. The woman is not your Love, and I would have accepted my rebuke, at the door incident, with a humble apology, had I been so thoughtless.

How about Miss?

The point that most women get off-put by is being called Ma'am as it indicates they are older than a Miss. I don't think they are necessarily insulted so much as taken aback by it. I can remember the first time I was called "ma'am" when I was 22, I was a little shocked (especially seeing since the person was 10 years older than me at least.) Part of it is that our society is so focused on youth, a lot of women have come to read things into behaviors that aren't there.

Unless somebody is old enough to be a grandmother, I use Miss.

 

[LizzieMaine]

How about Miss?

The point that most women get off-put by is being called Ma'am as it indicates they are older than a Miss. I don't think they are necessarily insulted so much as taken aback by it. I can remember the first time I was called "ma'am" when I was 22, I was a little shocked (especially seeing since the person was 10 years older than me at least.) Part of it is that our society is so focused on youth, a lot of women have come to read things into behaviors that aren't there.

Unless somebody is old enough to be a grandmother, I use Miss.

I know plenty of people who were grandmothers in their early 30s, and I think this is the age group that bristles most when you call them "ma'am." Old enough to realize they're getting older, and young enough to still feel vain about it.

What's really irritating is people who get all huffy over being called "ma'am" and then turn around and get even more huffy when you refuse to give them the senior discount. You can't have it both ways, ladies.

 

[Foxer55]

sheeplady,

How about Miss?

The point that most women get off-put by is being called Ma'am as it indicates they are older than a Miss. I don't think they are necessarily insulted so much as taken aback by it. I can remember the first time I was called "ma'am" when I was 22, I was a little shocked (especially seeing since the person was 10 years older than me at least.) Part of it is that our society is so focused on youth, a lot of women have come to read things into behaviors that aren't there.

Unless somebody is old enough to be a grandmother, I use Miss.

Lemmee see, do you think an enlisted man in the militray would address a newly minted female lieutenant as "Yes, Miss?" Do you think a construction worker would address a young female company officer as "Yes, Miss?" I believe the standard of Ma'am (Mam) is and always was a sign of respect. It never had and doesn't have anything to do with age.

My own view, from experience, is that young people today are waaay too sensitive about this sort of thing as some kind of criticism of them. Its not. I have noticed as I get older that young people are overly reactive to anything that doesn't seem to cater to their personal view of the world. I don't seem to remember that from when I was younger and I don't recall being sensitive to these things myself although I may be wrong.

 

[sheeplady]

sheeplady,



Lemmee see, do you think an enlisted man in the militray would address a newly minted female lieutenant as "Yes, Miss?" Do you think a construction worker would address a young female company officer as "Yes, Miss?" I believe the standard of Ma'am (Mam) is and always was a sign of respect. It never had and doesn't have anything to do with age.

My own view, from experience, is that young people today are waaay too sensitive about this sort of thing as some kind of criticism of them. Its not. I have noticed as I get older that young people are overly reactive to anything that doesn't seem to cater to their personal view of the world. I don't seem to remember that from when I was younger and I don't recall being sensitive to these things myself although I may be wrong.

In none of those situations would a person be taken aback by being called ma'am.... which was kind of my point. I don't think most women are offended, just taken aback. In the case of the military, that's a cultural tradition.

I've been called "Miss" by people who I've supervised or "outranked" in a workplace and I've *never* been offended by being called miss. Seriously, if we're at the point where I'm supposed to be upset at people for using Miss rather than Ma'am and vice versa I'm not sure if I want to go on living. But for me, I'm more concerned with respect being shown in the workplace than the particular title being used.

Someone asked what people could use other than Ma'am, and I gave a suggestion. [huh] Where I am from "Miss" isn't seen as derogatory towards a woman. In some parts of the US, Miss is seen as the proper way to address a woman, including where I am from. It has nothing to do with your perceptions about my age or sensitivity level.

 

[Touchofevil]

not dead but an under appreciated quality by the pop culture masses, most guys that have it are view as strange but some still do. (for the record I'm 28) its strange how in my age category manners can be viewed as a weakness or soft handed so to speak. its sad. but i like a tie and button up shirt. the lot of them can keep the language and baseball caps.

It is mostly a result of the ghettofication pervading society in recent times.

 

[Matt Crunk]

I had a good friend in high school (the early '80s) who believed in treating every female like a lady. On dates he insisted on opening every door (including car doors), pulling their chair out for them, ordering for them in restaurants, and generally tending to their every need. Most of the girls he went out with him seemed genuinely creeped out by his behavior and he rarely got a second date. That is till he eventually found one who like it, and married her.

 

[MikeBravo]

What's wrong with "Can I help you?" Is it necessary in egalitarian societies (where we don't have lords and ladies, dukes and duchesses etc.) to use a title at all?

I find I don't use titles when I speak with people, could be just me though.

And the military is a different matter. It has set protocols and consequences for not following those protocols. the same applies to courts of law etc.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The only problem with "Miss" is that it can very easily come across as condescending -- there are a lot of people, especially upper-middle-class people, who'll use "Miss" in a patronizing way to refer to any woman in a "service" position, in the same manner as calling an adult male "Boy." I've had people years younger than me give me "Miss" in a manner that made it sound like they were addressing a cocker spaniel, and I don't like it one bit.

 

[TheSacredFemme]

The only problem with "Miss" is that it can very easily come across as condescending -- there are a lot of people, especially upper-middle-class people, who'll use "Miss" in a patronizing way to refer to any woman in a "service" position, in the same manner as calling an adult male "Boy." I've had people years younger than me give me "Miss" in a manner that made it sound like they were addressing a cocker spaniel, and I don't like it one bit.

I agree with this. Definitely don't mind it from some people- you can usually tell the intention by the tone, but the word is rather reminiscent of being told off as a child.

In Germany if you called someone Fräulein these days I'm pretty you'd get slapped. That's one of those ultimate condescending things that would have not seemed our of place even 30 years ago.