Is chivalry dead?

[John in Covina]

Just because there were recordings of risque songs doesn't mean that they were played by the majority of people. They weren't played on the radio. In every period of time there were degrees of what could be said and done in public versus what happens behind closed doors.

Cursing and swearing is not unique to our time but the idea that it is an integril part of entertainment that needs to be played on radio, TV and all other forms of transmission for the public to hear is a bit different.

If you wanted some type of raunchy jazz you went to the clubs that offered it, it wasn't paraded around from a car at 145 decibels with bass that makes your rear view mirrors blur and the fillings fall out of your teeth.

What is different is that in the past there was a concept of language you would not use in front of:
Kids, a priest, a nun, your grandparents, add your own person here. Where as now there are people that have no clue about that concept or they revel and celebrate it as a new wave of freedom. I was taught first that these are the words we do not use in conversation as they are vulgar. Later it was expressed as the idea that these are words that get used when someone lacks the ability to converse, then when words fail us abut we are expressing extreme frustration (but still not in front of the list above). As in the Patton movie when I want them to remember it I give it to them dirty, but this was in front of combat troops.

So is the idea that you don't want your kids talking like that elitist, reactionary, or religious based ballyhoo from real stick in the mud puritan types?

 

[LizzieMaine]

Golden Era swearing was far more creative than the modern kind, I think. I know what my grandfather sounded like when he cursed, and the emphasis was on colorful metaphors and embellished oaths more than constant, tedious variations on the theme of copulation. I have no problem with swearing, in its place, and have been known to cut loose myself when circumstances warranted. What bothers me is trite, unimaginative swearing.

That said, I did not swear as a child, because I knew what Fels-Naptha tasted like and didn't want a second helping.

 

[Feraud]

Cursing and swearing is not unique to our time but the idea that it is an integril part of entertainment that needs to be played on radio, TV and all other forms of transmission for the public to hear is a bit different.

Agreed. This reminds me of when Betty White hosted SNL. The biggest laughs were when this eighty-something year old woman used dirty words. It must be funny because old people cursing is so cutting edge.
I was embarrassed for her and the lack of imagination from the writers.

 

[JimWagner]

My take on today's level of swearing may be a little different. Leaving media out of it for the moment I believe it's all about peer group conformity.

Like many here I was raised not to swear and didn't - when in high school. When I first got out of high school I went to work for a while on a railroad repairing box cars and was surrounded by older guys who all swore as a matter of course. No women and pinups on the wall were the norm. I ended up talking like them in short order to blend in and not make myself a target by being different. I even intentionally lost elements of grammar and correct pronunciation. Then I went to college for a short while. Lots of cussing there as you might suspect. Kids away from home for the first time and finally out of reach of getting their mouths washed out with soap by their parents. Pretty much just an expression of leaving the nest.

After I left college (a euphemism) I went into the navy where I cussed like a sailor. The peer thing again.

Once out, through college for real and into the computer profession I went back to decent grammar and pronunciation as well as full sentences.

By and large what I see today in the younger generation is that cussing routinely has moved down into earlier and earlier age groups as the same old peer pressure thing and as fewer parents and teachers have exhibited any real ability or inclination to curb it.

Once cussing became a more widespread mark of the particular demographic that spends most of the money in the entertainment business it was inevitable that the entertainment business would then adopt the same language to appeal to that demographic to siphon off as much money from them as it possibly could. Do you really for one minute think that the entertainment industry would cater to that group if it wasn't where the money was? And those of us who don't like the cussing, music or lifestyle simply don't matter to the entertainment industry because we don't impact their bottom line.

Until a younger generation comes along that rebels against the current one by reverting to "normal" speech as a way of separating themselves, takes up a different kind of music, and more importantly, hits the current entertainment industry in the pocket books by refusing to buy the crap sold today, nothing is likely to change.

YMMV.

 

[John in Covina]

The Golden Era was the most fertile for the double entendre by referencing the taboo with wit, not coarseness.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Genuine wit, as opposed to snarkiness or snideness, is itself practically extinct.

 

[John in Covina]

I believe it's all about peer group conformity.

Once cussing became a more widespread mark of the particular demographic that spends most of the money in the entertainment business it was inevitable that the entertainment business would then adopt the same language to appeal to that demographic to siphon off as much money from them as it possibly could. Do you really for one minute think that the entertainment industry would cater to that group if it wasn't where the money was? And those of us who don't like the cussing, music or lifestyle simply don't matter to the entertainment industry because we don't impact their bottom line.

Until a younger generation comes along that rebels against the current one by reverting to "normal" speech as a way of separating themselves, takes up a different kind of music, and more importantly, hits the current entertainment industry in the pocket books by refusing to buy the crap sold today, nothing is likely to change.

YMMV.

I am reminded of the sparring between Bill Cosby and Richard Prior as to the shift of language and to comedy.

I have friends and acquaintances that live in the black community in the Compton area and they have said that if you do not use the ghetto language you can be seen as not being "real" and trying to act above your station in life or as acting outside your race as in acting "white." It's a barrier, a divide for a lot of society today with sometime extreme consequenses and the peer pressure is very high for those in these areas of LA.

As we have been told words have meaning and the language has affects on the user and the subject, words shapes the conversation. Words can be used to wound and harm, so it is a shame that so many kids listen to the mysogenist and ganster lyrics, aspiring to the lifestyle.

As a philosophy question we see applied shifts in cultural thinking occurring all the time. In some cases the shift may be good or sometimes bad. Most of us looking at the application of ideas and how they get shift may wish to consider the repressive nature of life under say Nazi-ism, the cultural revolution in China and the horrors of re-education in Cambodia and Vietnam after the Vietnam war.

As history progresses we can sometimes see that concepts of what is good and what is bad for people and society get reversed. It starts with a clear position of A is good and B is bad. Then the definition of bad gets challenged it's not bad, they are misunderstood, it's not their fault. Now there should be no condemnation, there can be no punishment. Then those that hold that B is bad get attacked as intolerant and simple minded.
It progresses to that the position that A is good comes under attack by its association with the intolerant and simple. minded proponents. Eventually A becomes Bad and B becomes Good.

The situation may take many years to complete or just a few. It may also be a shift that the restraint of evil is cast aside as a supposed instance of doing good.

Any way, chivalry was considered chauvanistic and mysoginist. And the baby was tossed out with the bath water.

 

[mercuryfelt76]

John, totally agree with everything you said. Peer pressure used to insist upon chivalry but today's society peer pressure seems to be the other way around.

I say don't be pressured by people claiming there's something sexist about chivalry, there isn't - it's just common courtesy. Remember that the people who claim it is are either using that as an excuse or they're a feminist activist and we can't blame them for being over-zealous because that's the nature of political revolution - far too often throws the baby out with the bath water.

I practice chivalry all the time and I swear in private, as it always was. I have never had a lady complain except during the 1990s when feminism was basically female reactionary awareness raising. People do appreciate good manners and if they don't then they'll soon find themselves out of touch and old fashioned. I believe chivalry is seeing a come-back.

 

[John in Covina]

Some things are like a pendulum.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The thing with a pendulum is that it only stops when it's in the middle. Not only does modern culture reject subtlety, it also rejects moderation.

 

[John in Covina]

The thing with a pendulum is that it only stops when it's in the middle. Not only does modern culture reject subtlety, it also rejects moderation.

Rarely does a swing stop though. The length of time it takes for the swing may change.

 

[John in Covina]

John, totally agree with everything you said. Peer pressure used to insist upon chivalry but today's society peer pressure seems to be the other way around.

I say don't be pressured by people claiming there's something sexist about chivalry, there isn't - it's just common courtesy. Remember that the people who claim it is are either using that as an excuse or they're a feminist activist and we can't blame them for being over-zealous because that's the nature of political revolution - far too often throws the baby out with the bath water.

I can blame them and do.

When someone signs on to the idea that everything is stacked against me and I am only a victim, it creates a self limiting world that seethes with resentment and strife. While some of the agenda is real and meaningful addressing that which needs change, the angry often remains angry in spite of any changes that are made. Even the changes for the good are resented. It's similar dealing with someone that expects you to do something for them, and when you do it for them, they are not satisfied but continue to complain about how long it took you to get it done. That just leads to mutual resentment.

It's like doing a favor for a friend- you can ask me to help but you can't then tell me how to do it. If you want complete control then you pay for that type of work.

 

[Wojo]

There may have been but, the "artists" weren't being touted as stars for the young to idolize. The theme of most of the music before, was about love. Some IMHO verged on poetry.
Current generations always seem to think that they are so avant garde and that they invented sex and the words used to describe it. How did those 7 billion people get here?

It seems now anything goes from what we wear, to what we say. Where does it stop?
Just because we can doesn't mean we should.

 

[John in Covina]

It is hard to be chivalrous if your favorite songs refer to women as female dogs or as hoes, and they don't mean the gardening implement.

 

[Pompidou]

Anything goes is perfect. It means Fedora Loungers can do their thing, regular people can do theirs, and, in general, everyone can do their thing. To pine for the past in terms of social acceptance isn't to say, "I want to be able to be myself." It's more like saying, "I want everyone to be just like me." I love having every possible option at my fingertips, for better or worse. When a man of the past dressed nicely or acted like so, it was because he was forced to by society. When I dress nicely or act chivalrously, it's because I want to, and that's a more powerful statement than just following the crowd. It's a more powerful statement for everyone here. If everyone in the world still espoused golden era values - everyone - there'd be no TFL. There are a lot of flaws with pretty much any generation, this one, the last one, the one before that - and the flaws of this one are thoroughly discussed on the forums here. I don't think this generation's, "do anything you want - just be yourself" sort of attitude is a flaw. It's an ideal to strive for. Suits and t-shirts side by side not caring what the other is wearing. All that matters in life is enjoying it.

 

[Drappa]

The theme of most music is still love and human relationships, that hasn't changed one bit. And let's not over-estimate the amount of music referring to women as female dogs, that is a small minority of modern music. Female nudity as entertainment has been around for much longer than the golden era, and if anything at least today there are people recognising the problem with that.
I'd much rather go to a good, socially critical hip hop concert than to look at humans at a "freak show" for instance. Despite some shortcomings, some values today are much better today than those I would have had to endorse 80 or 60 years ago.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'd much rather go to a good, socially critical hip hop concert than to look at humans at a "freak show" for instance.

Of course, the "freak show" mentality -- the desire to gape and gawk and mock and jeer at the misfortune of others -- is perhaps more prevalent in popular entertainment today than it's ever been. No circus sideshow ever drew the audiences that any TV reality show gets -- to say nothing of the endless parade of twisted exhibitionism on You Tube and the like.

 

[Feraud]

The do whatever you want mantra as espoused by the current generation is a total failure on many levels.
We are viewing a generation of exhibitionists with very little worth showing off.

 

[rue]

Of course, the "freak show" mentality -- the desire to gape and gawk and mock and jeer at the misfortune of others -- is perhaps more prevalent in popular entertainment today than it's ever been. No circus sideshow ever drew the audiences that any TV reality show gets -- to say nothing of the endless parade of twisted exhibitionism on You Tube and the like.

I guess Andy Warhol was right when he said "In the future everyone will be famous for fifteen minutes."

 

[Drappa]

Of course, the "freak show" mentality -- the desire to gape and gawk and mock and jeer at the misfortune of others -- is perhaps more prevalent in popular entertainment today than it's ever been. No circus sideshow ever drew the audiences that any TV reality show gets -- to say nothing of the endless parade of twisted exhibitionism on You Tube and the like.

With the exception that participation in today's shows is voluntary and often sought after. There are also many people who are very critical of that sort of entertainment, and especially of the gender and race issues these shows bring up. It's not acceptable any more to import "savages" to be gawked at or laugh at people's disabilities and disfigurements, so I can't judge them on the same level.