IRVIN NUTS?...the ULTIMATE thread for those who love 'em!

[Daz1972]

IRVIN SIZES

Gents, I'm still on the search for an Irvin, but confused by the sizes as I'm very much a beginner on the topic - but the info here is priceless...

I'm 5'8 and 42" chest, so short and wide from too many gym sessions - can anyone give me a handle on what size I should be looking for - or better still, anyone got one for sale in my size?

Thanks all

 

[Alan Eardley]

Correct. They were in St. James's, Northampton. The factory has disappeared now.

Alan

Thanks Andrew, I was going to post the same kind of thing for a size 6 tomorrow, I'd be pleased for your opinion on that too, if you would? Am I right in thinking Wareings were based in Northampton? This jacket ended up here...

http://www.war-experience.org/collections/sea/alliedbrit/foster/default.asp

 

[nightandthecity]

now then chaps.....

I used to own the finest Irvin in captivity...I sold it in 1999 during a moment of financial instability to a well known jacket collector. The label read IRVINSUIT. IRVING AIR CHUTE OF GREAT BRITAIN LTD. LETCHWORTH, HERTS. PATENT NO. 407445/32 and was stamped with an AC/33. Browsing through my notes this morning it finally occured to me to do a patent search for 407445 on the wonderful espacenet site, and it turned up this.....

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=GB407445&F=0&QPN=GB407445

Lots of good Irvin-geek browsing there! It seems original patent was applied for Nov.1932 and granted March 1934. I always suspected the /32 and /33 on my jacket were dates, and it seems I was right.

Check out the "mosaics" page: note how similar the design is to the USAAC B-1 including breast pocket...I wonder if any Irvins were actually made with such a pocket?

 

[Alan Eardley]

Great stuff. Yes, the earliest suits (no-one is sure whether jackets were sold separately at this time) were produced with a patent label, but the patent had not yeat been granted. This was not unusual, although later the company would have had had to put 'Patent Pending' on the label - often disguised as 'Pat Pend' (which, as a boy, I always though was an Irish name!).

I'm fascinated by the variation in these early suits. I had one from the first AM contract (there was a civilian label and a AM label). The collar fastening is a buckle and perforated strap, rather than 'D' rings. The sleeves were without 'strips' like a US jacket. Again, it went to a noted collector.

I have seen an inference (in recordings made of LLI himself) that he contributed to the design of the B-1. Who knows? I have not seen convinceing evidence that the IAC numbers are dates of manufacture- it would be more in the Irvin style to have a full date (i.e. 1933). It could be a manufacturing number (e.g. department) or a pattern number (i.e. a 1933 patterm jacket whenaver made.

Thanks for the link!

BTW I think I once owned the best Irvin ever - and so, I guess, would several others! That's the joy of (ex) collecting.

Alan

I used to own the finest Irvin in captivity...I sold it in 1999 during a moment of financial instability to a well known jacket collector. The label read IRVINSUIT. IRVING AIR CHUTE OF GREAT BRITAIN LTD. LETCHWORTH, HERTS. PATENT NO. 407445/32 and was stamped with an AC/33. Browsing through my notes this morning it finally occured to me to do a patent search for 407445 on the wonderful espacenet site, and it turned up this.....

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=GB407445&F=0&QPN=GB407445

Lots of good Irvin-geek browsing there! It seems original patent was applied for Nov.1932 and granted March 1934. I always suspected the /32 and /33 on my jacket were dates, and it seems I was right.

Check out the "mosaics" page: note how similar the design is to the USAAC B-1 including breast pocket...I wonder if any Irvins were actually made with such a pocket?

 

[Smithy]

Thanks for the link nightandthecity.

I enjoyed reading the old patent stuff, enjoyed the drawings too.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Thanks for the link nightandthecity.

I enjoyed reading the old patent stuff, enjoyed the drawings too.

Yes, and there is an absolute nugget of information there - it describes precisely the function of the collar erection strap. I have recently had people argue strongly that it is a spare goggle strap - this won't seem to go away!

Note the collar fastenings - it's hard to see what they are but they seem completely unlike what eventually went onto the jackets. This is a feature of patents - they cover the patented items in detail but are often vague on other items.

Frustrating!

Alan

 

[Smithy]

the collar erection strap

What's strange is how long manufacturers kept on including this even though open cockpits (besides initial trainers) had largely been phased out of the RAF.

Snow and a blustery wind today made for perfect Irvin weather here.

 

[aswatland]

Great discovery about the Irvin Patent. I have an early Irvin with the a 33 stamped on the label. But it has IAC 33 not AC 33. Now I had presumed IAC stands for Irvin Air chute and the 33 is either the date of batch no. Here are some pics which i have posted before.

It is the four panel back construction as opposed to the two. The leather zip pulls are all original, as is the collar securing strap. The brass pulls are stamped "Dot made in England" and the slider bucket is unmarked. The stamped number 33 is visible on the label. It is made of high quality shortpile fleece, which is generally supple. The elastic collar securing strap is entirely original.

 

[nightandthecity]

That looks exactly the same as my ex-jacket Andrew. Just imagine your jacket absolutely mint, all the blacking still on the zips, the fur not yet starting to curl, looking for all the world like a brand new repro….and you have it! Except NO “AM” on the label, and I think (my notes my be wrong on this small detail) it was AC/33 rather than -33

I now suspect that the lack if the “I” in the AC/33 was probably a simple mis-stamp.

Back then I still had the idea that the Irvin was first produced in 1938 and to the simpler “Battle of Britain” design, and that what I had was a 1941 pattern jacket…… of course, I was intrigued by the /32 and /33, and came to the tentative - and at the time exciting - conclusion that the /32 was probably the patent date. It certainly crossed my mind that the /33 could therefore be a manufacturing or pattern date, but I was still wedded to the notion that all jackets with this seam configuration were “1941 pattern”.… it was after I sold it (I auctioned it among a small group of my regular collectors) that word starting coming in from said collectors that it was probably an early 30s jacket…..win some, lose some!

Interestingly, one of the first things that did strike me about this jacket as soon as I got it, was how like an early pattern jacket it was in many ways. The cut of the collar, the colour (and quality) of the fur and leather, the pattern of DOT, the collar strap etc….but my conclusion was that it was a very early 1941 pattern, perhaps dating to late 1940! In retrospect I’m surprised I didn’t see the possible alternative explanation right way, but it was a phase of life when I wasn‘t so into collecting any more.

Alan, I’m inclined to think the /33 is indeed a date, because the /32 seems to be one. The actual patent number doesn’t include a /32, that’s something Irvin has added, and it seems to reflect the date that the patent was applied for…so the odds seem good to me that the /33 is also a date - of course, if it is, whether it’s a date of manufacture or of pattern is obviously open to question.

 

[ethanedwards]

Irvin 6

Hello chaps,
Here are the size 6 measurements, hope they might be useful if you're going
to buy from ebay etc. I have no evidence at all as to the consistency of the
dimensions between various makers, or even how much things have distorted
over time. Great patent discovery - New scientist ran an article on breaking the Enigma code and said that had anyone wished to, they could have looked at the patent for the (earlier) machines at the patent office. Apparently
it didn't occur to anyone and much time was lost discovering information already in the public domain. Ouch. E.E.

 

[Windsock]

I used to own the finest Irvin in captivity...I sold it in 1999 during a moment of financial instability to a well known jacket collector. The label read IRVINSUIT. IRVING AIR CHUTE OF GREAT BRITAIN LTD. LETCHWORTH, HERTS. PATENT NO. 407445/32 and was stamped with an AC/33. Browsing through my notes this morning it finally occured to me to do a patent search for 407445 on the wonderful espacenet site, and it turned up this.....

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=GB407445&F=0&QPN=GB407445

Lots of good Irvin-geek browsing there! It seems original patent was applied for Nov.1932 and granted March 1934. I always suspected the /32 and /33 on my jacket were dates, and it seems I was right.

Check out the "mosaics" page: note how similar the design is to the USAAC B-1 including breast pocket...I wonder if any Irvins were actually made with such a pocket?

Slow response time from me but well done digging this out N+TC! I love this sort of thing. It really is a gem of information. My searching the patents site hadn't revealed too much, but obviously the number was the way to go. Anyone know if there were subsequent patent numbers issued? The fact that all known Irvins follow a different pattern makes me wonder.

...and yes Alan, it's incredible the amount of information that they didn't actually describe in the drawings. It's a wonder that that the actual product is so consistent.

It has been often said before but I am amazed and impressed with the knowledge bank on the site!

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Would it usual for this type of patent to not mention fleece as the default option for the liner? The picture apparently shows only a fleece collar and the text says:

"Flaps lined with fur or like material may be provided to cover the junction lines between the separable parts of the garment." (my underlining)

and:

"A garment as above described may, of course, 'be made from any suitable 90 material, such, for example as front leather or skin and may be lined if desired for example with fleece or fur."

So, are there Irvins out there not made of fleece? There's that damned cat amongst our pigeons again.

bk

 

[Alan Eardley]

Alan, I’m inclined to think the /33 is indeed a date, because the /32 seems to be one. The actual patent number doesn’t include a /32, that’s something Irvin has added, and it seems to reflect the date that the patent was applied for…so the odds seem good to me that the /33 is also a date - of course, if it is, whether it’s a date of manufacture or of pattern is obviously open to question.

What makes me (and some others) question the IAC number as a date is the prevalence of - or /33 and - or /35 numbers. This may be a coincidence based on the jackets that are still in existence, but I have seen them on jackets that have the features (e.g. zips and panel construction) that are usually associated with later production. I have an open mind on this.

Alan

 

[Alan Eardley]

I agree. This description would make more sense in the context of a garment lined with an insulating material (i.e. like a B-2) rather than a sheepskin (i.e. 'self lined') garment like an Irvin. I would go on to suggest that the conventional flying clothing design of the early 1930s (like the Spalding and Cottingley suits) would make this the obvious way to go. They were often lined, rather than 'self insulated' (and sometimes had a removable liner).

I further suggest that a reading of the patent indicates that it is the format of the suit that is being patented, rather than the material. You could make a similar suit out of cotton lined with alpaca or leather lined with fur and still be covered by the patent. I think LLI was covering his options.

If we look at the patent in conjunction with IAC's contemporary adverts (see further up this thread), which show a smartly-dressed civilian gent putting on an Irvinsuit, I further suggest that what LLI was trying to produce was a flying suit that could be put on easily with a minimum of disruption to everyday clothing. If you try to put on, say, a Sidcott or 1930 pattern one-piece flying suit over a business suit, you end up looking a mess. I have worn an Irvinsuit over a DB suit and tie and it doesn't have this effect.

Alan

Would it usual for this type of patent to not mention fleece as the default option for the liner? The picture apparently shows only a fleece collar and the text says:

"Flaps lined with fur or like material may be provided to cover the junction lines between the separable parts of the garment." (my underlining)

and:

"A garment as above described may, of course, 'be made from any suitable 90 material, such, for example as front leather or skin and may be lined if desired for example with fleece or fur."

So, are there Irvins out there not made of fleece? There's that damned cat amongst our pigeons again.

bk

 

[Baron Kurtz]

, a Sidcott or 1930 pattern one-piece flying suit

Alan

fftopic:
[warning: this story comes close to the pain caused by Micawber's story of losing a box full of Tailor and Cutter magazines]

It will horrify you to know that in a vintage store in London - while i was not working and so could not afford its £40 asking price - there was a very early twill cotton one piece suit with all the lightning zippers in place. Perfect condition as near as i could tell. 'Twas certainly military - had the white linen tag, though faded - and pre WWII. I went back when i could afford it but it was gone, having sat in the store for many many months.

I decided that i needed booze more than i needed a flying suit that was wayyyy too big for me.

Does anyone have pics of early flying suits? Maybe i'd be able to identify the beast from someone's archive pictures . . . Maybe a new thread?

bk

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Incidentally, it seems that the "original document" pdf isn't downloading to my computer properly. the one that's coming down is a single page of text, with the rest of the pages blank. Is this what everyone else is getting?

If not, someone email it to me.

bk

 

[BellyTank]

I bought an early Sidcott suit, in perfectly new condition, from Mad Mikes Surplus store- Lee Green, S.E.London. Twas £30. Was without the furry pocket linings, though. Mad Mike died- shop close.

I sold the suit a year or two later...
Wish I hadn't.


B
T

 

[Windsock]

Yes, and there is an absolute nugget of information there - it describes precisely the function of the collar erection strap. I have recently had people argue strongly that it is a spare goggle strap - this won't seem to go away!

Alan

It certainly couln't be any more clear than this;

"A suit or the like as claimed in any of the preceding claims in which a band, for instance of elastic material is fitted to the collar and is adapted to be passed over the head of the wearer in order to keep the collar in an up-turned position and enable a substantially air-tight seal to be made with the helmet worn with the suit."

This is brilliant.

 

[Smithy]

Re:BT's post...

I certainly bet you wish you hadn't now.

Sidcot's are pricey now and you can expect a pretty penny for one. If it's a 1930 Pattern then the price goes up even more (everyone want to look like Bader).

 

[Alan Eardley]

But I bet it still won't go way!

Alan

It certainly couln't be any more clear than this;

"A suit or the like as claimed in any of the preceding claims in which a band, for instance of elastic material is fitted to the collar and is adapted to be passed over the head of the wearer in order to keep the collar in an up-turned position and enable a substantially air-tight seal to be made with the helmet worn with the suit."

This is brilliant.