How do you date a hat?

[Frunobulax]

Hello all,
I'm new here. I'm a vintage store owner and have a good knowledge of vintage but struggle with men's fedoras. I've read all about Knox Fifth ave Hats and history, but am still unsure on the date of this hat. I believe it's a Homborg ? At first, I thought it a newer one, but then questioned that. It has a 2" brim, embossed logo on sweatband, the sweatband is leather, the size tag is paper ( why I thought maybe newer, but then saw older hats with paper size tags) is in good condition except for some staining on the hat lining. It came from a local woman who passed recently, was in her 70s and did theatre. Any help dating and pricing would be appreciated! Thanks in advance!

A few tips.

Look behind the sweatband at the rear of the hat (if it's pliable). You should find a reorder tag and a union label. Post those as they contain clues.

You can also bracket your hat's age if you can determine when Frank Vargaus was in business.

We tend to not give price advice, as it can depend on many things, but it's a very nice Homburg in a sought after color and the larger 7 1/2 size makes it desirable, as well.

 

[unja]

Thanks so much for the speedy response! I meant to mention that I went down the rabbit hole trying to find Frank Vargaus' Hatter in San Jose, but could not find anything, unfortunately. Not seeing a union label si may be later or may have fallen off. The sweatband was pliable enough, but sadly, I noticed the stitching coming apart while checking the label beneath. It could certainly be repaired though. I'm familiar with union label dating, but not reorder label sequences. Here's a pic of it. Also, note that the hat is definitely black. I need to get a better photo as it is appearing as navy. The pic of my husband wearing it shows the true color best. Thanks again!

 

[jlee562]

Thanks so much for the speedy response! I meant to mention that I went down the rabbit hole trying to find Frank Vargaus' Hatter in San Jose, but could not find anything, unfortunately. Not seeing a union label si may be later or may have fallen off. The sweatband was pliable enough, but sadly, I noticed the stitching coming apart while checking the label beneath. It could certainly be repaired though. I'm familiar with union label dating, but not reorder label sequences. Here's a pic of it. Also, note that the hat is definitely black. I need to get a better photo as it is appearing as navy. The pic of my husband wearing it shows the true color best. Thanks again!

Found two references to Vargaus in the SJSU newspaper, earlier one being 1937, the latter being 1940. Unfortunately not particularly helpful for dating.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Hello all,
I'm new here. I'm a vintage store owner and have a good knowledge of vintage but struggle with men's fedoras. I've read all about Knox Fifth ave Hats and history, but am still unsure on the date of this hat. I believe it's a Homborg ? At first, I thought it a newer one, but then questioned that. It has a 2" brim, embossed logo on sweatband, the sweatband is leather, the size tag is paper ( why I thought maybe newer, but then saw older hats with paper size tags) is in good condition except for some staining on the hat lining. It came from a local woman who passed recently, was in her 70s and did theatre. Any help dating and pricing would be appreciated! Thanks in advance!

@Brad Bowers The Hatted Professor has a website that states the style of size tag in your photos appeared in the early 1950s and last into the early 1960s. I thought that the re-order label was older than that, but it’s just a gut feeling.

It’s definitely a homburg and it’s definitely a vintage hat. It’s hard to find vintage hats in sizes over 7 ⅛ so it’s a nice find. We don’t usually get into valuations. Homburgs are not as popular as fedoras and they don’t sell for as much. It’s also of…less generous proportions that don’t usually do as well at auction. Good luck.

 

[Rmccamey]

The sweatband was pliable enough, but sadly, I noticed the stitching coming apart while checking the label beneath. It could certainly be repaired though.

One of the hazards of vintage hats. Repairing sweatbands and stitching can be done, but it is not for the faint of heart. I always try to be very gentle when checking inside labels to try to avoid tearing the sweat or popping stitches.

 

[Just Daniel]

Welcome to the Lounge!

I agree with Brent above and his observation on the size tag and manufacturing label. They give conflicting signs, a common issue with old hats.

Update to the Update: Following up my comment and editing some - I went through the first 40 pages or so of the School of Hard Knoxand found three or four instances of that manufacturing tag on 50s hats. We generally see it as a tag from the 30s, but it definitely stayed around a while. So far I have tracked the size tag to the early 40s, but I have not seen evidence of the tag in the 30s. …That does not mean it was not used in the 30s, just that I have not seen it.

There still might be more info put there - there are about 20 more pages of posts on Knox hats, but the size tag does seem to indicate a 40s hat (edited) rather than a 30s hat.

There are at least two hats in the Knox thread that appear to be exactly the same, but neither one was given a date.

https://www.thehattedprofessor.com/datehca.html

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/the-school-of-hard-knox.18386/

Hello all,
I'm new here. I'm a vintage store owner and have a good knowledge of vintage but struggle with men's fedoras. I've read all about Knox Fifth ave Hats and history, but am still unsure on the date of this hat. I believe it's a Homborg ? At first, I thought it a newer one, but then questioned that. It has a 2" brim, embossed logo on sweatband, the sweatband is leather, the size tag is paper ( why I thought maybe newer, but then saw older hats with paper size tags) is in good condition except for some staining on the hat lining. It came from a local woman who passed recently, was in her 70s and did theatre. Any help dating and pricing would be appreciated! Thanks in advance!

 

[jlee562]

On second look, the 1937 ad mentions "formerly known as 'The Hatter,'" whereas this is still Included on the store imprint.

 

[Just Daniel]

Here are some relevant Knox threads, first an NRA hat with one style manufacturing tag, then a slightly different style tag from the 50s.

7-1/16 Knox. NRA labeled.

I agree about the nice hat, but the date is off by about two decades.

This style of tag was used 1950s and 1960s, and perhaps all the way through 1972.

The liner attachment patent seems to be this one, and the first I've seen in practice. It uses a dry thermoplastic adhesive resin and a branding iron to fasten the liner into the hat. Since it says Pat. Pend., I think you can safely say your hat was made between April 1957 and December 1962.

Too cool, buler!

Brad

Knox Twenty - brown

Here is another Knox Twenty in brown. Very thin, lightweight hat when compared to most Knox/Dobbs Twenty's. Had 2 different reorder tags also.

B

 

[Just Daniel]

Wow. Nice catch. That observation could be the difference maker….but the 1940 ad call him “The Hatter” again.

Frank Vargaus only shows up in the 1940 census.

On second look, the 1937 ad mentions "formerly known as 'The Hatter,'" whereas this is still Included on the store imprint.

 

[unja]

@Brad Bowers The Hatted Professor has a website that states the style of size tag in your photos appeared in the early 1950s and last into the early 1960s. I thought that the re-order label was older than that, but it’s just a gut feeling.

It’s definitely a homburg and it’s definitely a vintage hat. It’s hard to find vintage hats in sizes over 7 ⅛ so it’s a nice find. We don’t usually get into valuations. Homburgs are not as popular as fedoras and they don’t sell for as much. It’s also of…less generous proportions that don’t usually do as well at auction. Good luck.

Thank you. Yes, it's true that homborg don't sell as well. I'll try anyway. I always have trouble with the Hatted Professor site. Could be my phone though.

 

[BobHufford]

Wow. Nice catch. That observation could be the difference maker.

They may not have changed the debosser for the sweatbands quickly if dropping "the Hatter" when adding a full clothing line to the store.

I don't care what decade it's from -- it's a great looking hat!

 

[Frunobulax]

Thank you. Yes, it's true that homborg don't sell as well. I'll try anyway. I always have trouble with the Hatted Professor site. Could be my phone though.

My phone and tablet hate Brad's site. None of the drop downs work right. I can only successfully view it on a PC.

Wish he would have finished it.

 

[Just Daniel]

Last one…our Justin aka “Splintercells” calls his similarly-labeled hat a 30s Knox.

So maybe you can honestly say “We think it is a late 30s, early 40s hat but it’s hard to tell exactly. ‘37-‘40.”

1930s Knox "Excellent"

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

Thanks so much for the speedy response! I meant to mention that I went down the rabbit hole trying to find Frank Vargaus' Hatter in San Jose, but could not find anything, unfortunately. Not seeing a union label si may be later or may have fallen off. The sweatband was pliable enough, but sadly, I noticed the stitching coming apart while checking the label beneath. It could certainly be repaired though. I'm familiar with union label dating, but not reorder label sequences. Here's a pic of it. Also, note that the hat is definitely black. I need to get a better photo as it is appearing as navy. The pic of my husband wearing it shows the true color best. Thanks again!