How do you date a hat?

[hathead]

Dating vintage hats

What is the best to date vintage hats? I have seen a number of them on eBay and do not trust the sellers ability to properly date them. Are there any web sources other than this forum ect.. By the way I am new to vintage hats and the folks on this forum told me it would be addictive and they were rights.

 

[billyspew]

What is the best to date vintage hats? I have seen a number of them on eBay and do not trust the sellers ability to properly date them. Are there any web sources other than this forum ect.. By the way I am new to vintage hats and the folks on this forum told me it would be addictive and they were rights.

Personally I've found this forum and the members' here to be the best help.
Vintage advertising helps though.

 

[zetwal]

There are many threads on this (complex) topic. Do you know how to search and find them? You will want to read several of those threads carefully and reflect on what is said there. Welcome!

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

I have seen a number of them on eBay and do not trust the sellers ability to properly date them.

Now that is a good opinion to have. I find that hats are incorrectly dated more the 50% of the time on the Bay.

As to how to date them... it is a hard thing to do. As many expert hat collectors here will tell you, it is often impossible to date a hat just by looking at a few photos. There are a few tell tale things, but for the most part it takes a lot of time making yourself familiar with the hats, the advertising, and the literature on them to be able to claim you can date a hat.

Some of the fellows here have hundreds of hats in their collections and have handled thousands and even THEY say it's often hard to properly date a hat.

Just go to the forum here and read all the dating specific threads. It'll take quite a while. But once you are done you'll have a better idea. The threads are often not easy to read because they jump all over the place and the debates go back and forth. But taken as a whole it's the best education you'll ever be able to get on fedoras.

The simple fact is that there is no one place to go to help you date hats. There aren't any voluminous books, websites with convenient grades and categories, or company archives that clearly lay it all out for you. It is a long road to figuring it all out.

 

[monbla256]

Now that is a good opinion to have. I find that hats are incorrectly dated more the 50% of the time on the Bay.

As to how to date them... it is a hard thing to do. As many expert hat collectors here will tell you, it is often impossible to date a hat just by looking at a few photos. There are a few tell tale things, but for the most part it takes a lot of time making yourself familiar with the hats, the advertising, and the literature on them to be able to claim you can date a hat.

Some of the fellows here have hundreds of hats in their collections and have handled thousands and even THEY say it's often hard to properly date a hat.

Just go to the forum here and read all the dating specific threads. It'll take quite a while. But once you are done you'll have a better idea. The threads are often not easy to read because they jump all over the place and the debates go back and forth. But taken as a whole it's the best education you'll ever be able to get on fedoras.

The simple fact is that there is no one place to go to help you date hats. There aren't any voluminous books, websites with convenient grades and categories, or company archives that clearly lay it all out for you. It is a long road to figuring it all out.

Alot of GOOD advice there ! I've been a collector of Fountain Pens and Watches for over 25 years now and have found that WITHOUT some form of paper trail of the original purchaser or retailer or manufacturer indicating the SPECIFIC date of the item being sold, the whole dating thing is a moot point. I realize that hat manufacturers might not have been as specific in this area as some other manufacturers (ie watches have serial #s and most watch firms have records available as to production dates etc which helps a lot) so I think a rough dating without this data is the best one can get.

Onward thru the Fog

 

[danofarlington]

I've got a Roman helmet with the date 101 B.C. That's the earliest for-sure reliable date I've heard of.

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

Did the Roamns use "B.C." in their dates?

 

[monbla256]

Did the Roamns use "B.C." in their dates?

I'm not sure about the Roamns but I don't think the ROMANS did

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

LOL. They didn't have to worry about keyboards, either.

 

[fluteplayer07]

I've been solidly observing for over a year now, and I still don't have most it down pat. But I will share some of my thoughts and observations on the subject.

First of all, dating is never an exact science, unless the hat is dated either by a receipt, or a store tag under the sweatband. Other than that, dating is purely speculation.

I have found that there are two distinct realms by which the age is estimated; One is by the appearance of the hat in terms of design elements, trimmings, and styling. The other is by research and inferences based on the liner, sweatband, and other such labels/logos/tags.

I'll start by talking about the physical appearance of the hat. The outward styling, such as the crown height, brim width, taper, etc. helps us to narrow the date range down by the trends of hat making, and in a way, society's views on fashion. Many times, the link between hat and clothes styling are direct; for example, hats of the 1940's tend to be larger, with tall boxy crowns and wide brims. Also during this time, the Bold Look of clothing was in its heyday, with heavier fabrics, wide lapels, and larger shoulder paddings. So when the lapels on suits began to narrow dramatically in the 60's, as well as ties, hats soon followed. Brims became narrower and crowns more tapered and shorter.

Edit: A stingy brim 40's hat would be unusual, but the full range repeated as brim widths and crown heights contracted beginning in the mid-50's for the up to date. (rlk)

A 1940's Imperial Stetson


A 1960's Borsalino Savona


Sometimes, even the same model of hat was altered.

An early 1940's Stetson Whippet

And a late 50's Whippet

Edit: Some specific models remained essentially unchanged from late 30's to mid 50's. (rlk)

Hats from the 30's have fuller crowns (In fact, crowns began to taper and shrink only around the 1960's; before that, crowns were almost always larger), and somewhat shorter brims than their 40's counterparts.

Alan's 20's to 30's Stetson 'The Motor'

Some hats even have some reverse taper, when the crown, when creased, tapers outward at the top of the crown, so it's wider than at the base. I've seen this mostly on earlier hats from the 20's.

My 1920's Stetson 'Select' Quality


Ribbons on earlier hats I have found to be larger, with the bows being 'sloppier', you could say. Of course, there are always exceptions, and that is not to say that narrower ribbons were not produced. The ends were sometimes frayed, a feature used to show the quality of the ribbon used; a high quality ribbon with fraying on the ends would not unravel, unlike cheaper hats.

20's Stetson 'Excellent Quality'

Scottf's 20's (I think? Maybe even earlier?) Stetsonian 'Extra Quality'

A 30's Stetson Special

If any of you Loungers more experienced than I have found any of my information to be faulty, please let me know.

 

[monbla256]

Excelent Post !!

fluteplayer07,
THANK YOU for an excelently written and illustrated short overview of Fedora hat dating. I learned quite alot from it !

Onward thru the Fog

 

[fluteplayer07]

The other way to date a hat is by looking at clues on the inside of the hat; i.e. the sweatband markings and embossings, liners, tags, and logos. I am not as apt to comment on this as others, but I'll still give it a shot.

The sweatband is perhaps the most important factor in deciding the age of a hat. It has a lot of information on it, if one can read it correctly. Such as the color of the leather, the feel of it, the size and thickness of it, and the types of embossing on it.

Hats from the 20's are generally darker and wider.

Scott's same 'Extra Quality'

Earlier sweats sometimes have grained textures, as opposed to smooth leather.

Stetson 'Select', 1920's. The sweat is 2 1/2" wide.

There are signs to help date a hat by the types of embossings used on the sweatband, both on the ring around the top of the sweat, and those used for the logos. They can be blind or foiled. The stitching on them is also an identifier. I have a link to an excellent thread by Dinerman, who is much better at explaining this than I.

Later hats sport skinnier sweatbands, sometimes black, with no embossing, but instead printed gold foil marks.

A 70's or 80's Stetson

Now for liners. Liners in earlier hats were sewn in, not glued. Sometimes they were pleated. This practice dropped out by the 30's or 40's, from what I have read.

Edit: Pleated liners were used in some cases up until the 1950's. (rlk)

A pre-WWI J. Hückel´s Söhne, owned by our venerable mayserwegener.

Later hats sported plastic liner covers over the company logo, presumably to prevent hair products from ruining the liner. This started in the 50's.

Edit: Plastic and synthetic liner covers may have been used even earlier than this. (rlk)

A 50's Dobbs with a plastic cover

For two hats of the same model name, one may be identified as earlier or later depending on the presence of a plastic cover over the liner.


Now, of course, all of this varies by manufacturer, and each hat maker has their own minutia regarding details of hats. For instance, the color of the swirled line motif in a Stetson (gold or blue) can mean a difference of an entire decade. I highly recommend taking a look at this thread.

Non-Stetsons can be seen here.

I highly recommend searching lots of these threads around the Lounge. They are highly informational, and very valuable. I also recommend you to buy and handle hats yourself. It's the best way to learn; hands on. I know this post is not all-encompassing (it's not meant to--instead, it's the sort of jumping off point I wish I could have found when I was starting out), and of course may be flawed (I ask the pros here to please proofread and make changes as necessary), but hopefully this is a good starting point for a beginner; hat dating in a nutshell.

I'd like to thank all the Loungers here who have meticulously collected, sorted, and posted all of this information to begin with. Us in the 'new generation' of FL'ers couldn't do it without you.

If any of you Loungers more experienced than I have found any of my information to be faulty, please let me know.

Edit:
Disclaimer
As is pointed out later in the thread, it is wrong to make assumptions over the entire industry. I have simply compiled some examples of the more common trends I have observed over the past year. That is not to say all of this is 100% correct. And it is not to say that the super-rare 1920's Austrian seal velour finish you may own is going to match any or all of these criteria exactly. This post is just a distillation of the trends I have observed in some of the more common hats here, as a skeleton structure for people to embark on their own dating research. There are always exceptions, and no post will ever be 100% accurate; as the world we are researching and slowly piecing together is ever-changing, and ever-expanding.

Cheers,

 

[fluteplayer07]

Sources:

On Taper

Whippets

Borsalino Brotherhood

Bold Look

50's Suits

Pre-1940's Stetsons

Pre-1940's Non-Stetsons

ID'ing Early Hats by Sweatband

ID'ing Stetsons by Liner

Bowlers/Derbies

Confused Stetson

OFAS--That's EBAY, people!!!

Cheers!

 

[Blackthorn]

I've got a Roman helmet with the date 101 B.C. That's the earliest for-sure reliable date I've heard of.

:eyebrows: :eusa_clap

 

[fluteplayer07]

fluteplayer07,
THANK YOU for an excelently written and illustrated short overview of Fedora hat dating. I learned quite alot from it !

Onward thru the Fog

You're welcome! My New Year's resolution is to post more helpful and informative things, other than just all the 'Looks great!' and 'Cool hat!' comments, that are the norm for me.

 

[rlk]

1905

 

[fluteplayer07]

RLK, did I hit most of the points correctly? Anything you see that should be changed?

Cheers,

 

[Johnny J]

Scottf's 20's (I think? Maybe even earlier?) Stetsonian 'Extra Quality'

Can you please give me the height of this open crown? And how does it look bashed?

 

[rlk]

I wouldn't extend any of it beyond USA made hats and most valid for Stetsons. Some specific models remained essentially unchanged from late 30's to mid 50's. Translucent synthetic liners go back earlier and may or may not have survived on a given hat. There is NO 30's STYLE HAT. Every crown height and brim width seen thereafter occurred at some point from some manufacturer in that decade. Pleated liners are longer lasting and used in as major a maker as Resistol into the 50's. A stingy brim 40's hat would be unusual, but the full range repeated as brim widths and crown heights contracted beginning in the mid-50's for the up to date. There were always offerings for the less adventurous alongside seasonal cutting edge styles and many styles have essentially been in production for 100 years. The more I learn the less safe most of the generalizations seem. Short-handing can lead to many errors.

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

RLK, did I hit most of the points correctly? Anything you see that should be changed?

I think I read two letters in rlk's reply...

An "N" and an "O."

;0