Himel website updated

[Dr H]

Whitechapel!

‘Go Back to Old Kent Road’

 

[Big J]

When I first started reading Fedora Lounge, people used to say things like 'Buzz Rickson's MA-1 jackets are so good, but the price is so high!' and 'Lost Worlds jackets are such good quality, but the prices are so high!', that kind of thing. People talked about them like they were crazy money.
I think that with leather jacket prices going to 2000 USD, 500 bucks for a BR seems cheap, 1200 bucks for a LW G-1 seems like a bargain!

 

[Superfluous]

I’m really surprised how much vitriol there is for Himel . . . So much ridiculously charged language here. Buyers of Himels are labeled ‘vain’

Unfortunately, Himel owners have been characterized far worse than “vain” in this thread. For a forum that prides itself on respectful discourse, this is sincerely disappointing. Posters need to understand that, when they disparage all patrons of a particular brand, they are, by implication, disparaging individual TFL members who patronize the brands. IMHO, these types of posts are disrespectful and counterproductive. Yet, they continue unabated.

A custom sized and detailed leather jacket handmade using arguably the best materials in the world for half the cost of an off the rack Gucci leather jacket? Outrageously expensive or a bargain? Is it really that clear cut?

Its all relative. This Saint Laurent cross-zip is $5,250:

This Balenciaga cross-zip is $4,690:

This Tom Ford cross-zip is $5,690:

Of note, all three of the foregoing jackets are fairly standard cross-zips that look pretty similar to the jackets favored on TFL. IMHO, Himel’s competing Avro and Chevalier cross-zips are much better looking, and for half the price:

When compared to Saint Laurent, Balenciaga, Tom Ford and other similarly priced jackets – of which there are many – Himel jackets are a relative bargain. To be clear, I am not suggesting that Himel jackets are, in fact, a bargain. Rather, I am merely illustrating that it is all relative.

Keep in mind that the foregoing jackets are not the avante garde pieces offered by certain designer brands. This Gucci cross-zip is $18,650:

Is Himel more expensive than some? Absolutely. Is Himel among the most expensive? Not even close.

People speak of hyped brands patronized by sheep desperately seeking to keep pace with current fashion. Given Himel’s relative obscurity, I strongly disagree that Himel fits this characterization. Rather, Gucci, Saint Laurent, Balenciaga, and Tom Ford are more accurately described as hyped brands. Fashion aficionados pursue these brands, but have never heard of Himel. Himel is a small, esoteric brand that is patronized largely by leather jacket enthusiasts, as opposed to fashion hounds. Himel is not marketing his jackets on Madison Avenue. Rather, he attends workwear and vintage clothing shows, and sells through retailers that specialize in workwear.

Circling back to my original point, I am spending an inordinate amount of time discussing this subject because, unfortunately, I feel indirectly assailed by certain posters. Neither I, nor anyone else, should be put in this position on TFL. IMHO, derogatory references to all customers of a particular brand are detrimental, create undesirable acrimony, and should not be condoned. Just as I do not post that all buyers of XXX jackets are cheap bastards that waste their money on poorly made products because they have no understanding of quality, others should not post derogatory characterizations of Himel buyers, and thereby indirectly belittle individual TFL members that are Himel buyers.

Ps: Its past my bedtime. Good night all.

 

[Peter Bowden]

I have listened to the Heddel's Himel podcast a few times and as I understand it Dave talks about a new jacket having a commodity value of a weeks wage,presumably back in the 30's or 40's.I guess times have changed but then now what is a weeks wage?I like his re-vamped website but he seems to have done away with his blog which was interesting.

 

[Big J]

I think it's been a sensible discussion about price points and markets. Getting emotional and passive aggressive doesn't help convince me the jackets are worth it.
I thought you were done addressing me on this anyway?
Everything you've written on this screams that you're trying to justify the price point to yourself, and you honestly seem to take it really personally when others think the jackets are overpriced.
You continually misread comments to paint yourself as the victim of unwarranted attacks, which I find quite insulting since I was the only one to accuse others of bullying you the week before Christmas.
Maybe showing you a little sympathy made you think I'm a soft touch. I shouldn't have bothered.

 

[Big J]

When I say 'people' I mean people in general, it's not some kind of code for 'Superfluous', but I think you know that, and I think you're deliberately misrepresenting what I've written in an effort to get the thread closed because people are disagreeing with you.

 

[Superfluous]

J,

1. It was not my intent to insult you, and I apologize for doing do.

2. Your statement that “[e]verything you've written on this screams that you're trying to justify the price point to yourself” is insulting to me. Equally important, it is demonstrably false. I have posted many times that Himel’s prices are well beyond the point of diminishing returns, I cannot justify his prices under any notion of sensibility, and I freely abandon sensibility when I purchase his jackets. You disregard these concessions in order to post derogatory opinions regarding a turmoil brewing inside of me that simple does not exist. I would appreciate it if you would cease posting your belittling, counter-productive analyses of my inner-psyche.

3. I have always appreciated your support, and thank you again for your past kind words. I am disappointed that I may have burned that bridge, as I have always greatly valued your contributions to this forum.

4. IMHO, when you broadly characterize an entire group, your characterizations apply to the individual members of the group even if you don’t mention them by name. You apparently disagree. So be it. I apologize if I took your statements personally when you did not intend for them to be personal.

5. I have no desire to shut down this thread. I have no problem with people disagreeing with my opinions. Such disagreement is necessary for vibrant and stimulating conversation. If we all agreed with each other, this would be a pretty boring place. As previously noted, my gripe is not with the varying opinions, but rather, my perception of the derogatory undertone permeating the discussion. As evidencing by other posts in this thread, other members share this perception. You strongly believe I have misunderstood/misinterpreted your posts in this regard. I get it and, going forward, I will endeavor to read your posts through a different lens. All I ask in exchange is that you be aware of the possibility that negative generalizations about groups may not be well received by members of the group.

S

 

[red devil]

Is it me or many handmade/artisan goods are getting more expensive? Just get the feeling that I am seeing this trend all too often these days...

Coming back to Himel, I currently own no jackets from him but I am currently considering getting a jacket from him or LW as per the Grizzly thread (yes I am still thinking about it and it will take a long time )
But it is a difficult choice as I have not seen or touched any jackets of his, what made me consider him are the experiences of fellow members here.
Most of us probably jumped blind into their first jackets, it was a gamble for sure, but less risky due to a lower price point and maybe more feedback from users.
I have a Freewheelers which costs as much as a Himel, but I got it as the shop after trying it, etc. and it's a very unique model.
And this is also the reason I have no RMC or Flathead, as the fits were just bad for me.

This forum is in kind of a unique position, ready to spend more than average on garments but not really into fashion. People here in general want to feel they are getting value for their money.
And as @Superfluous said so rightly, the price to quality ratio has nothing to do with the high fashion brands which are clearly not in favour here.

Kind of getting lost in what I am trying to say, but it feels like Himel came from the workwear world and is trying to enter the fashion sphere (and its prices) which is what bothers a lot of the users here.

 

[ton312]

The process of purchasing anything custom, regardless of the maker or product, is rooted in some degree of vanity. The debate should be about the product, not the consumer b/c we are all after the same thing in the end. Hell, if I didn't want a good fit, fine detail and loads of specifics... I'd just go to Nordstrom and buy a north face and be done with it.

 

[Carlos840]

I find it interesting that this exact same discussion happens whatever the subject. I have seen it on every forum I have been a member of.
Guitars, basses, cars, watches, jackets, wine, you name it, whatever you buy, you will find people who cannot deal with the fact that you are spending YOUR money on something YOU like for whatever reason makes sens to YOU.

Why do they feel the need to judge others for something that has no influence on their lives?
Anyone is free to spend their money how they want!
If you don't think a Himel jacket is worth it, there is an easy solution, don't buy one, and don't look at his website.
The rest of us will get on with our lives and we will all be happy...

 

[Justhandguns]

This forum is in kind of a unique position, ready to spend more than average on garments but not really into fashion. People here in general want to feel they are getting value for their money.
And as @Superfluous said so rightly, the price to quality ratio has nothing to do with the high fashion brands which are clearly not in favour here.

Kind of getting lost in what I am trying to say, but it feels like Himel came from the workwear world and is trying to enter the fashion sphere (and its prices) which is what bothers a lot of the users here.

Yes, "value for money" is my idea of a purchase, but it is also a very subjective (and relative) thing, isn't it? I feel a bit sorry for Himel as it is being made into the scapegoat, but as some of you had said, the price increases with some manufacturers are becoming a bit insane when compared to many other garment products. But then again, it is also true that Himel may be pricing themselves out of certain 'niche' of people here (myself included). I have no doubt that they will still thrive as a premium jacket maker in the biker/vintage world, but to me, a 2k jacket is not 'value for money' anymore.

My problem with Himel and the prices they demand is, having tried them on in a retail store...feeling positively underwhelmed. The hide, the cut, just everything... Left so much to be desired.
The jackets frankly didn't hold up. Stitching wasn't mind blowing (in fact a bit shoddy TBH), leather felt cheap, and the cut wasn't for me at all (all off the rack jackets). I will say the custom jackets shown here don't look to be at all of the same caliber. I wouldn't even think them the same maker TBH. But that's not really the point.
.....................

Disclaimer here, I have never handled a Himel in real life. I am pretty certain that the hides that Himel uses are the best of the best that one can find these days. So craftsmanship is what we should looking for next, especially Himel pride themselves as an high-end artisan maker. From some of the jackets that I have come across over the years, I have to say ELC and Lewis have the most tidy and uniform stitches, Vanson is not far behind as you can imagine how tough it is to sew through their competition hides.

Superfluous made some interesting comparisons between Himel and some designers' jackets. What I want to do is to ask you lads here, between the Himel Kensington ($2450) and the Goodwear Californian Racer ($1549), which one is better in terms quality? That is almost 1k difference in there.

 

[Mark Ricketts]

The price is the price, and the right price is whatever the market will bare.
I find it an interesting comparison with Goodwear, but rather than ask if a Himel jacket is worth an extra $1000, rather ask is it worth losing 4 years of your life just to save $1000.
Personally, I would never buy a Himel jacket as I just don't like them.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Wow, Guns, that's almost a theological question and one that might bring forth some casuistry.

 

[Harris HTM]

I think that two different aspects are confused here:
a) whether any specific product is worth the price it is sold at; and
b) whether the people buying a product of a specific price class consider the people buying cheaper or more expensive products as cheapos or rich wannebees.
My personal view is that almost any product out there is overpriced, some less some more. The big discussion is whether the better details, materials, etc are worth the extra dough. As other fellow members have already noticed this is the case with virtually any product; I myself had the same doubts when I bought a US Fender Precision and my Benz.
People should be free to buy whatever they think they like the most and can afford.
However I have noticed that it is specifically this brand (Himel) that gives birth to such heated discussions and none of the expensive japanese brands.
I also agree with a fellow member noticing that most artisan products have become substantially more expensive lately, the same happened for example with William Lennon boots which I fully recommend - I will still be buying their products.
Disclaimer - with this post I am not targeting any member and I have absolutely no intentions to insult anyone.

 

[Edward]

Yeah, let's steer away from that!

As ever, the bottom line in these things is finding the level you are comfortable with, buying what you want, like and can afford, and then live and let live. I'm just pleased to live in an era in which we have the level of choice that we currently enjoy; I'll either admire or ignore securely what I can't afford / don't want to spend, and stick with what I like. Nirvana lies in managing to do that while remaining indifferent to what others think...

 

[Big J]

@Carlos, who is telling people how to spend their money? I haven't seen any comments like that.
My very first comment on this thread starts with 'People are free to spend their money on whatever they want'.
The rest of us are entitled to an opinion, even if some disagree. What you call 'judgement' is just an opinion, and an all too common over dramatic response to those who disagree.
I've lost count of the times I've tried to talk about jackets on TFL only to be accused of 'attacking people'. There seems to be an inability to accept questioning, diversity of opinion, and disagreement. And if that's the case, I wonder why people post.
We want discussion, not an echo chamber I think.
But I've seen this across the internet in a variety of forums over the last year or so. The back and forth of discussion has been reduced to people feeling personally affronted and insulted by others disagreeing with them, posters self-censoring discussion away for fear of upsetting others, or just not bothering to post.
It's not a case of keyboard warriors and flaming, but rather the shrill hysterics, and constant claims of indignation that are making it not worth the bother.

 

[Monitor]

I’m really surprised how much vitriol there is for Himel (for context, I own an Aero and have bought and traded a second hand jacket). So much ridiculously charged language here. Buyers of Himels are labeled ‘vain’ but asking for opinions on the Aero that you feverishly researched on forums, had fit jackets for, obsessed over the small details of and then paid the equivalent of a month’s rent of an average family for isn’t also ‘at the extreme end of the vanity market’ (guilty along with the rest of you by the way)? Time to fess up, we’re all pretty vain followers of fashion and are willing to put large amounts of disposal income behind that. Split hairs over what fashion means if you want. Flaunt your post code poverty. Pretend that you don’t belong a here because you can only afford a GW and 43 Aeros. Really what is so offensive about a Himel though?

I’ve read many times here, largely uncontested, that Shinki HH is the best in the world. I have no clue if that’s accurate but I recall reading that it takes a year for them to tan it. The only other data point I have is Chromexcel at one month. ‘Best’? Maybe. Most expensive? I believe that.

I also see ‘custom’ thrown around a lot for makers that are willing only to add length. I need a 41” chest for the best fit, how many makers are willing to accommodate that? Then, of course there’s plenty of Japanese brands that wouldn’t allow for even the adding of length at the price of a Himel.

A custom sized and detailed leather jacket handmade using arguably the best materials in the world for half the cost of an off the rack Gucci leather jacket? Outrageously expensive or a bargain? Is it really that clear cut?

(On the popular GW comparison. John just needs to increase his prices. If you have a 2-4 year waiting list then you’re probably not pricing your product correctly.)

This is a great post.

I don't even know what the debate in this thread is about anymore...

 

[Camaro1967]

Ton, I genuinely respect your above-posted opinion. Why? Because it is based on real world experience, as opposed to hypothetical, theoretical, generalizations.

Your comments suggest the opinions of others isn't based on real world experience.

Question: Could Himel sustain his business and make money selling the exact same jackets for $1,000?

Sustain or grow? In the case of the former, why not? In the case of the latter, that is certainly the impression the revamped website gives: he's looking to grow the brand with a better web presence. Certainly folks somewhere will continue to buy.

Another question: For those of you who believe certain manufacturers are just plain "greedy," what do you believe is a fair and reasonable profit margin? $500 per jacket? 30% of the MSRP? At what point do profit goals move from reasonable to greedy?

There is a difference between labeling a manufacturer as greedy versus labeling a business practice as greedy. Let's avoid strawmen arguments, yes? But, when all business costs are accounted for, greed and suspicions thereof become a factor when there is a lack of transparency involved. And to be fair, this isn't directed at Himel but all manufacturers. So, there is some skepticism about what $2,000+ is buying you when it isn't at all clear what the actual costs involved with each aspect of the business is. And when less expensive and seemingly similar alternatives exist (you could argue they are not the same, sure, but similar), paying twice for what appears to be the same thing presents itself as greed. Transparency would fix this.

A Bugatti Chiron priced at $1 million would be an insanely priced car -- exponentially higher than countless other outstanding cars -- utterly ridiculous. However, at that price, Bugatti loses money. My point is that one cannot determine profits and greed simply by looking at pricing. There is so much more to the equation.

Indeed. Like if you're the kind of person that can afford a $1 million car in the first place. How many people are buying that car versus the other rides Bugatti offers? Bugatti can afford to schmooze the rich guys a bit since there is a good chance this isn't a one-time transaction.

This increase in prices isn't driven by some imaginary increase in quality or workmanship hither to unknown in human history of saddlery until the last few years, nor by a sudden increase in vintage enthusiasts increasing demand, but instead by an increase in middle class customers with disposable incomes getting caught up in the end of the mainstreaming of hipster style IMHO.

+1.

It's too far a leap for me. Not b/c of the price per say, but more b/c I don't see the value. I just don't believe it's actually there. The new site reads a bit like propaganda to me and I've always loathed the slogan, "one good thing" as it attempts to justify, in my opinion, an ego driven price point.

+1

I’m really surprised how much vitriol there is for Himel

Vitriol? Really? Just about everyone in this thread and forum in general has generally positive things to say about their product. The pricing, no. But identifying the questionable practice of a jacked up price isn't an attack on the brand, it's calling out the business practice (and not just Himel does this either) for what it is: an appeal to those with deeper pockets.

I think that with leather jacket prices going to 2000 USD, 500 bucks for a BR seems cheap, 1200 bucks for a LW G-1 seems like a bargain!

I used to scoff at this notion, thinking it was crazy to ever consider a grand for a jacket a bargain. But after having tried a variety of other brands, the price to value ratio with LW is stellar.

Unfortunately, Himel owners have been characterized far worse than “vain” in this thread.

Hmmm, re-look through the thread. Nobody called you, personally, or Himel owners, in general, vain. But yes, the increase in price is certainly targeted at a more affluent cliental.

I think it's been a sensible discussion about price points and markets. Getting emotional and passive aggressive doesn't help convince me the jackets are worth it.

+1

Kind of getting lost in what I am trying to say, but it feels like Himel came from the workwear world and is trying to enter the fashion sphere (and its prices) which is what bothers a lot of the users here.

I'd argue he was workwear-inspired. Nothing wrong with that. But his stuff isn't meant to be treated the same way a Carhartt work jacket would be. I'd still buy his stuff if I could afford it (or, more aptly put, if I was willing to pay the retail price).

The rest of us are entitled to an opinion, even if some disagree. What you call 'judgement' is just an opinion, and an all too common over dramatic response to those who disagree.

+1

 

[Guppy]

I don't even know what the debate in this thread is about anymore...

Apparently, what you wear says something about who you are... And then others get to interpret what that is, and pass judgment accordingly.

 

[Camaro1967]

Apparently, what you wear says something about who you are... And then others get to interpret what that is, and pass judgment accordingly.

I'd take a more nuanced approach here: what you pay for what you wear says something about who you are. Judgment, that'll happen no matter what. Some are just more polite about keeping their thoughts to themselves.

But if folks didn't really want to be exposed to those differing points of view, why would they intentionally go to a forum explicitly intended to share different points of view?

If someone isn't comfortable with dissent, leave the conversation. Block the person. Move on. It's hard to imagine someone else's luxury good enjoyment will be compromised because another person on TFL has something different to say about it.