Golden Era Cultural Icons

[Marla]

I can recognize more icons from the '37 list than the '57 one, which is a surprise to me. I guess that shows where my interests are!

From the '47 list the only icon that most people would recognize today is... Superman, sadly.

 

[LizzieMaine]

A couple I would add:

Walter Winchell

John L. Lewis. (He had the market on eyebrows cornered)

Absolutely -- I don't see how I left them off the 1937 list. Winchell, especially, was one of the most culturally-influential people of his generation -- despite being pretty much completely forgotten today.

Another one I'd add to 1937 -- and not just because I'm working on a book about him -- is Su Lin the Panda, the most famous animal of the decade.

 

[Marla]

Should Jack Benny have a place on the '47 list? It strikes me that if he had a 20 year run on radio then he was well-known and well-liked by the American public.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Should Jack Benny have a place on the '47 list? It strikes me that if he had a 20 year run on radio then he was well-known and well-liked by the American public.

Absolutely -- a case could be made for putting him on the list as early as 1937, even. And he was still relevant as late as the sixties.

 

[Dexter'sDame]

I nominate Dame Elizabeth Taylor for the 1957 list, because of her body of work, and from a pop culture standpoint everyone was talking about the Eddie-Liz-Debbie gossip. Last week every Eddie Fisher obituary mentioned the triangle immediately after "Singer Eddie Fisher passed away at the age of..."

My mother graduated in 1958, and she and almost every brunette in her Senior class looked like Elizabeth Taylor clones, because they all had her 1958 makeup and hairstyle--complete with the little curl over above the left eye! It's eerily noticeable throughout the yearbook. Mom's wedding dress was even a modified version of the "Father of the Bride" wedding gown. In my mom's Midwestern town, people weren't interested in emulating Marilyn yet. In fact, in her town, poor Marilyn was considered somewhat of a dirty joke that people didn't understand until later.

(edited for typo)

 

[Miss Golightly]

. In my mom's Midwestern town, people weren't interested in emulating Marilyn yet. In fact, in her town, poor Marilyn was considered somewhat of a dirty joke that people didn't understand until later.

Strangely enough my parents went to see Niagara on their wedding day (!) and my Mum (who would be very conservative as I imagine a lot of Irish people were back then) was thinking how sexy Marilyn was (as she appeared to be naked under her sheets in her first scene) and found her to be quite magical -I definitely got my love for Marilyn from her. Glad that Marilyn, the woman, is more appreciated and understood now.....

 

[Miller Fan]

Betty Boop. Even though she is really only a popular image now. A lot of people don't know that she's been around since the 30's.

A lot of people also don't realize she was a cartoon spinoff of real life Clara Bow, and was originally a dog, a french poodle. Max Fleischer, the Betty Boop creator, didn't humanize her for a couple of years.

 

[Miller Fan]

I thought Sinatra might be one of those figures who'd endure -- certainly anyone over 40 today would know who he was. But would the average 30-year-old recognize a photo of him, instantly and without prodding? Given how completely unaware of any pre-rock-era pop culture most young people today are, I kind of doubt it.

Sinatra as a performer in 1947 was becoming kind of a pop-culture joke. He was still visible on radio -- he was the star of Your Hit Parade every Saturday night -- but the bobby-soxers had moved on to Vaughn Monroe and Frankie Laine, and the records he was making were cheesy inconsequential pop tunes. Everyone would have instantly known who he was, but he would have been a punch line to many people rather than a respectable artist.

A couple of days ago I heard on NPR that Eddie Fisher was the main threat to Sinatra, so much so that Sinatra attempted suicide by slashing his wrists.

 

[Mark D]

Sinatra as a performer in 1947 was becoming kind of a pop-culture joke. He was still visible on radio -- he was the star of Your Hit Parade every Saturday night -- but the bobby-soxers had moved on to Vaughn Monroe and Frankie Laine, and the records he was making were cheesy inconsequential pop tunes...

That was right smack in the middle of his years recording for Columbia and Sinatra's battles with Mitch Miller, the novelty tune king. The columbia relationship nearly destroyed his career.

 

[Widebrim]

For the 1930s

The Marx Brothers
Three Stooges
Cab Calloway
Jean Harlow
Dillinger
Al Capone

The 3 Stooges would be one of the very few that could be on the 1937, 1947, and 1957 lists, without a doubt!

 

[Widebrim]

Lizzie, I would definitely argue for the inclusion of Bugs Bunny on the '47 and '57 lists (as well as, perhaps, any lists up to 2007). Tom and Jerry? At least '47 and '57...In addition, how about Martin and Lewis on the '57 list (although they had actually gone their separate ways by then)?

 

[Mark D]

To my mind there's one name conspicuously absent from the lists and that's Duke Ellington.

 

[Mark D]

I thought Sinatra might be one of those figures who'd endure -- certainly anyone over 40 today would know who he was. But would the average 30-year-old recognize a photo of him, instantly and without prodding? Given how completely unaware of any pre-rock-era pop culture most young people today are, I kind of doubt it.

Thinking more about Sinatra...the thing about Sinatra that has buoyed him across the decades isn't his early work, but The Rat Pack and the fact the he is the embodiment of a certain style for so many. I know plenty of 20 and 30 - somethings that listen to him. Keep in mind that he's had some help along the way. Guys like Harry Connick Jr. brought him to the fore in the early 90's and Mike Buble is again doing the same for yet another generation.

In my travels (as a musician and years working in record shops because I didn't make any money as a musician) there were a few popular artists that seemed to cut across nearly every demographic that there is...Bob Marley was one, ABBA surprisingly was another (There are a lot of closet ABBA fans out there), Johnny Cash...and I'd have to say Frank Sinatra too.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Just a comment re Bugs Bunny and other cartoon characters, and things like the Three Stooges. Some of you folks don't seem to understand that there's a VAST difference in perception about cartoons and shorts between people who first encountered them in theaters, and those who did on TV. To oversimplify:

To folks of my parents (Depression/WWII) generation, cartoons and comedy shorts were disposable entertainment that you saw ONCE, laughed at, and forgot. Even if you went to the movies weekly, as many people did then, and managed to see more than a couple of Bugs cartoons or Stooges shorts a year, they were quickly forgotten. And even if you really liked Bugs, or Betty, or the Stooges or Laurel and Hardy... they were still side dishes, not the main bill of fare at the movie theater, and they weren't taken remotely seriously.

It's only with the rise of TV and the baby boom generation, who were exposed to these things in endless reruns, that the idea of them as "classics" emerged. (Much less that there were interesting differences over the run of a given comedy group's career, that the different directors of Warners cartoons had vastly different styles and concerns, etc. It required a level of viewing and re-viewing that wasn't possible until the advent of TV, and eventually, cable, home video, and obsessive-fan-written Wiki pages.)

Hence, in Lizzie's lists, you see personalities from radio and newspapers - who everyone listened to and read about everyday - and folks involved in politics and government, but not comic characters that we consider immortal... who were just junk-food distractions at the time.

I think this is an important distinction: the whole way we interact with "entertainment" now is SO different from the old see-it-once-and-it's-gone model that it's worth noting. Folks in the 30s-50s were certainly familiar with some of our favorites - but at a far more modest scale.

 

[Widebrim]

^^Dr. Strange, I understand your points, but I don't believe that years ago something seen on a theater screen was always quickly forgotten. Certain cartoon/short subject plots would obviously not remain for long in one's memory, but the characters involved in said productions often did endure. Why else would figures like Bugs Bunny, Elmer Fudd, and Porky Pig be used to sell War Bonds, or Disney Studios be asked to provide insignia for military and naval forces during WWII (many of them featuring Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck)? As LizzieMaine wrote when she started this thread, "For example, if you talked to just about any average American in, say, 1937 they would instantly and without hesitation be able to identify every name on this list:" I firmly believe that in 1947 just about any "average" American would have been able to identify Bugs Bunny and the 3 Stooges.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think Bugs would have been iconic enough in the wartime/postwar era -- he was consistently winning polls in the "Most Popular Short Subject" category during those years, even without the exposure he'd later get from television. The Stooges I'm less sure about, only because of the way shorts were being distributed during those same years -- by the late forties, Columbia was the last studio still making two-reel comedies, and they weren't getting many takers except for kiddie matinees and the like. By 1947, you wouldn't likely see a Stooge short shown with a firstrun A feature, but you might find them in the second-run neighborhood houses.

I think for a lot of people the Stooges -- and other short-comedy series -- were in their heyday in the mid-to-late thirties, and were sort of vestigal remnants of the past by the postwar era. "Hey, I didn't know these guys were still around -- and what happened to Curly, anyway?"

 

[Doctor Strange]

Widebrim, I think you have it backwards. Alot of that stuff - like Disney artists designing nose art or cartoon characters selling war bonds - was done because of the general mood of we're-gonna-do-our-part! by the creators/producers, not because somebody in authority decided, "These characters are popular/iconic and folks will recognize them, so let's use 'em to sell bonds." It was a much simpler, and less calculating, media world back then.

Having said that, the last thing I would ever want to do is denigrate Bugs Bunny! He was indeed very popular in the forties, as his guts and self-confidence made him the perfect hero for the war years. Of course, he was BRAND NEW at the time, not a revered figure from sixty years ago with hundreds of films on his resume.

And I think Lizzie's point on the Stooges is valid. Aside from the Frank Capra features, Columbia was mostly a purveyor of low-budget programming that was widely perceived as junk, and likely didn't play in a lot of the better venues. Sure, folks would recognize the Stooges, but they weren't BELOVED like they are now.

Funny how one generation's insignificant slapstick timewasters become a brilliant body of work to later generations, isn't it?

 

[CharlieB]

OK,, did not see any of these.

For all three decades:

Fred Astaire
And, of Course, the PRR - Pensylvania Railroad "The Standard Railroad of the World"

47-57

Gene Kelly


For '57

Bobby Darin
Ed Sullivan

Sorry if I duplciated anyone!

 

[Widebrim]

Widebrim, I think you have it backwards. Alot of that stuff - like Disney artists designing nose art or cartoon characters selling war bonds - was done because of the general mood of we're-gonna-do-our-part! by the creators/producers, not because somebody in authority decided, "These characters are popular/iconic and folks will recognize them, so let's use 'em to sell bonds." It was a much simpler, and less calculating, media world back then.

Having said that, the last thing I would ever want to do is denigrate Bugs Bunny! He was indeed very popular in the forties, as his guts and self-confidence made him the perfect hero for the war years. Of course, he was BRAND NEW at the time, not a revered figure from sixty years ago with hundreds of films on his resume.

And I think Lizzie's point on the Stooges is valid. Aside from the Frank Capra features, Columbia was mostly a purveyor of low-budget programming that was widely perceived as junk, and likely didn't play in a lot of the better venues. Sure, folks would recognize the Stooges, but they weren't BELOVED like they are now.

Funny how one generation's insignificant slapstick timewasters become a brilliant body of work to later generations, isn't it?

Well, I'm glad that nobody's out to denigrate the Brooklyn bunny. Keep in mind, too, that to be included on the two lists on this thread, one did not have to be "revered," just instantly identifiable by the "average" American during that particular year.

You're right about everyone wanting to do his/her part during WWII, but at least as regards Disney artwork during the war, I don't think that I've got it backwards. It was a lieutenant with the U.S. Naval Operations Office who first requested from Disney an emblem to put on the Navy's mosquito boats. After that, requests poured in from the Navy and Army for Disney artwork, much of which featured already famous characters. In addition, artwork featuring Disney characters not done by the studios, but by servicemen themselves, was very common. The Royal New Zealand Air Force, for example, had aircraft decorated with amateur artwork containing images of Donald Duck, Mickey Mouse, Dumbo, and even Grumpy. This shows that it wasn't just a matter of industry officials doing their part, but that certain cartoon characters were being requested/used because they already were well-known. (And Bugs Bunny's prolific output of cartoons during WWII, and his popularity among troops, certainly would have assured him a place on the 1947 list.)

Now about the Stooges (and I don't want to provoke an eye poke here), it is true that they were more in their heyday during the Curly years. However, the last Curly short came out in 1946, only one year before the imaginary 1947 list. (That year, the Stooges also appeared in the feature film, Swing Parade of 1946.) Although by the late 1940s their shorts did not generally play in "A" theaters, the Stooges were still very popular. Years ago I met a man who had been a projectionist in the late-40s; he mentioned that when the Stooges logo would appear on the screen, the audience would howl with approval, and I doubt that his example would be unique. (And as a note, short subjects were still produced for some years after WWII: RKO continued until at least 1952, MGM until 1954, and Warners until 1956.) It's also important to note that the Stooges made many live appearances at theaters across the country, often packing the house. In the mid-40s, for example, they appeared for one week at a small New Orleans theater which had just been taken over by the famous Minsky family. During that time, they passed out 30,000 photos to fans, and did $15,000 of business. Also, the Stooges appeared on many TV programs in the late-40s/ early-'50s; they even made a TV pilot in 1950. The point is that they certainly would have been instantly identified by the "average" American in 1947, and therefore should be on that year's list, right up there with Gypsy Rose Lee... (Although I admit that by 1957 they may have temporarily faded from the public eye. As you implied, it would take their shorts appearing on television to make them the superstars that they are today.) Sorry for the long tirade, but we Stooges fans are a rather hardcore group...

 

[CharlieB]

"It's also important to note that the Stooges made many live appearances at theaters across the country"

The Stoogies began as a live act, with Moe, brother Shemp and Lary. Shemp did not want to continue on film, so younger brother Gerome (Curly) took over. When Curly's health prevented him from continueing , Shemp returned to the act.

I have always been partial to Shemp, but any combination of this original four were far better than the later productions with Joe or "Curly" Joe.