Freewheelers vs. The Real McCoys vs. Vanson Cross Zip Jackets

[Marc mndt]

I do like the fit and quality of this Japanese made jacket though

 

[Canuck Panda]

"Quality" is very subjective. In my mind quality is trumped by pattern and fit.

Let's take jeans, for example. Iron Heart vs Levi's. Iron Heart are phenomenal quality. Their signature fabric is different class, every little detail is wonderfully done, and I have genuinely marvelled at how well made they are. They don't, however, sell a pair of jeans that fit me as well as Levi's 541. They have no competing pattern, and on my body their better options simply don't fit right. Are the Levi's good quality? Sometimes the quality is alright, but more often than not it's a bit disappointing. Variable fabric, variable finishing, heck, variable sizing!! I'd pay for better 541's, and indeed have, when Levi's can be bothered to sell the "Premium" version of the jeans. Whilst better, the Premium is still leagues below Iron Heart in quality. But until a higher quality maker makes jeans with such a good pattern for me, it simply doesn't matter.

Similarly, however good the quality of the Japanese jackets is, it just doesn't matter when you rarely ever see them fit someone (Asian or Western) perfectly.

There are custom jean shops that literally copies (insert your current jeans here) in any premium selvage fabric you want. I ran into one in Japan last time I was there. I am sure similar shops are all over the places in Asia, and the prices will differ a lot based on location.

Is there a "5Star" for denim yet?

 

[jeo]

Whoa, whoa, whoa take it easy fellas!

We are all passionate and love leather jackets here and as such have very strong opinions. It’s a shame to see a disagreement of opinions resort this kind of discourse.

Craig, Tony…both of you guys are stand up members of this fine community and I would hate to see any of you leave or feel that you can’t express opinions.

Let’s get past this and instead rejoice in the bond that ties all of us weirdos together and that’s a love and a passion for leather jackets.

Now make up!!! Lol!!

 

[Superfluous]

There are two fundamentally different questions:

1. What jacket is best for a particular person; and

2. What jacket is better quality irrespective of fit on a particular person.

When answering the first question, fit is the paramount consideration. If a jacket is made out of the finest unicorn hide and constructed by the absolute best leather artisan on the planet, but does not fit well, the superlative quality of the materials/construction is irrelevant. Therefore, when determining the best jacket for a particular person, fit is far and away the most important factor.

When evaluating the quality of materials and construction unrelated to fit on a particular individual, other considerations predominant. Those considerations admittedly are subject to debate, but they do not include the fit on one particular person. Rather, the fact that a particular jacket fits a particular individual well says nothing about the quality of the material or construction, and the notion that a jacket is superior in quality simply because it fits one individual better than a different jacket is not well-taken.

Do certain jackets fit a broader cross-section of society? Of course. On the other hand, it also depends on what cross-section of society is being considered. Most Filson and Carhartt jackets are far too wide in the chest and shoulders for me. Does that mean they employ poor patterns? Of course not. That only means that they employ patterns that are not suitable to my body shape. I do not have a lumberjack frame. Likewise, the vast majority of FW jackets are too narrow/short for me. Again, that does not reflect poorly on their patterns. Rather, it simply means that I do not fall within the target audience of the pattern.

Are there aberrant patterns that transcend traditional body shapes and do not look good on most people? Yes. Is that reflective of a poor quality pattern? Some would say yes. The manufacturer surely disagrees and stresses an unconventional aesthetic. That said, the jackets being discussed in this thread do not fall in that category. The FW may not fit Jake as well as the Vanson, but it certainly is not an aberrant pattern. Likewise, the RMC in the particular size purchased by Jake is too long for him. However, it is not aberrantly long or poorly shaped, and surely fits other people better than the Vanson.

Jake found a jacket that fits him great. He appropriately prioritized fit and openly compromised in other respects in order to achieve the best fit.

In the end, I look for BOTH fit and quality based on my subjective interpretation of both considerations. How I balance these considerations varies from jacket to jacket.

 

[Marc mndt]

In the end, I look for BOTH fit and quality

Which is shown below: the best fitting Mulholland on planet earth.

 

[Rich22]

I do like the fit and quality of this Japanese made jacket though

View attachment 413207

I agree. Looks great on you!

 

[Rich22]

There are custom jean shops that literally copies (insert your current jeans here) in any premium selvage fabric you want. I ran into one in Japan last time I was there. I am sure similar shops are all over the places in Asia, and the prices will differ a lot based on location.

Is there a "5Star" for denim yet?

I didn't know such shops existed for jeans. That would appeal to me! I tried and failed a few times to get my favourite suit trousers copied precisely- I like a front rise of 11" and a large rear rise of 17-17.5" because I have a big ass from a lifetime of sport and weightlifting, and no one seemed to be able to get their head around how that had been achieved, which was worrying. Time and again I'd end up with a high front rise or a low back rise.

 

[Blackadder]

"Quality" is very subjective. In my mind quality is trumped by pattern and fit.

Let's take jeans, for example. Iron Heart vs Levi's. Iron Heart are phenomenal quality. Their signature fabric is different class, every little detail is wonderfully done, and I have genuinely marvelled at how well made they are. They don't, however, sell a pair of jeans that fit me as well as Levi's 541. They have no competing pattern, and on my body their better options simply don't fit right. Are the Levi's good quality? Sometimes the quality is alright, but more often than not it's a bit disappointing. Variable fabric, variable finishing, heck, variable sizing!! I'd pay for better 541's, and indeed have, when Levi's can be bothered to sell the "Premium" version of the jeans. Whilst better, the Premium is still leagues below Iron Heart in quality. But until a higher quality maker makes jeans with such a good pattern for me, it simply doesn't matter.

Similarly, however good the quality of the Japanese jackets is, it just doesn't matter when you rarely ever see them fit someone (Asian or Western) perfectly.

If I may go further. There are different aspects and quality on a garment and each individual would likely place different value on different aspects. Some would place higher value on weight, thickness and some would place more value on other aspects.
Is weight and thickness the most important aspect in everyone's mind therefore the thickest leather is the best and most valuable? I think not. Your average leather sofa likely has thicker leather than your jacket. Yet we see lots of opinions on how such and such is the best because it is so thick.
So is durability and sturdiness of build the most important? Perhaps not because the sturdy kersey wool used on peacoat is actually cheap material. A coarse sturdy tweed cloth does not cost more than a high thread count wool cloth which is fragile and needs great care all the time.
Virtue is in the eye of the beholder.
We have often tried to express, explain or even convince others of our value but disagreement should not be taken so personally.
For example, I take great exception to Monitor's opinion about hype and overpricing. To me Chrome Hearts goods are way more hyped and overpriced than say FW. I think they are mere hand finished and not handmade i.e. not forged and sculpted by hand and therefore are way overpriced due to the "hype".
Look at it this way, Ton's opinion may even be taken as every brand from Langlitz to LW to Cal Leather are scammers because one can readily get the best at Vanson's price.
Fit is probably the only clear aspect shown in a photo because we can't really feel the actual leather and examine every stitch. We also won't know if a certain defect is exceptional case which somehow got passed QC or if it is usual and expected.

 

[Monitor]

@Superfluous, I don't want you to lose $10,000 for absolutely no reason at all. And you will lose $10,000.

@Blackadder, Chrome Hearts is garbage. They use nice leather and the workmanship is on par with anything high end but that's about it; I never said they're epitome of quality or anything like that, just that I personally like some of their stuff but they are over-hyped trash and nothing they do should even be mentioned in the same context with Vanson.

There's this clown in Japan that's posting photos of himself draped in what would amount to approximately entire store worth of CH trash, jewelry and all that shit and I don't know where he gets the money but that's beside the point... He also posts some idiotic anime real life dolls he's banging, which I guess is probably about as close as he'll ever get to anything resembling a female which is a damn shame with all that money dropped on argentum. Also beside a point.

Anyway, at some point, he uploaded a few photos of a Chrome Hearts leather jacket, the $10K one but just a few posts later, the jacket suddenly transformed into Vanson Model E with all the hardware replaced with CH garbage that was originally on the CH jacket. Someone asked him in the comments what happened & he explained that he needed a sturdier jacket of higher quality. So yeah...

I can only repeat myself (and be ignored); Vanson makes professional motorcycle equipment. Comparing a maker you pretty much trust your life to to a company that only wants you to look good is stupid. Vanson makes a better leather jacket. There's no discussion there and no maker or expert will ever give an edge to FCL.

 

[JMax]

I can only repeat myself (and be ignored); Vanson makes professional motorcycle equipment. Comparing a maker you pretty much trust your life to to a company that only wants you to look good is stupid. Vanson makes a better leather jacket. There's no discussion there and no maker or expert will ever give an edge to FCL.

Bingo.

 

[morrison2951]

Plus, Vanson jackets make you look good also!

 

[Superfluous]

I can only repeat myself (and be ignored); Vanson makes professional motorcycle equipment. Comparing a maker you pretty much trust your life to to a company that only wants you to look good is stupid. Vanson makes a better leather jacket.

For those seeking maximum protection in a motorcycle accident, your logic is infallible. For those who could care less how well their jacket endures a motorcycle accident, your logic is uncompelling.

Both the FW jacket and the Vanson will last a lifetime, or the better part of it. The additional protection provided by the Vanson is only relevant if one rides a motorcycle. Otherwise, it is largely irrelevant.

Please explain why the Vanson jacket posted by Jake is superior in quality to the FW jacket posted by Jake . . . without reference to considerations that are only applicable to people who ride a motorcycle.

 

[Peacoat]

I'm going to close this thread to let things cool off. Everyone has had his say. Let's move on to something else. Not a suggestion, but a directive. Leave it be.

 

[Peacoat]

I have reopened this thread. Please follow my directive in the above post. PC

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I am quite happy with the Vanson jacket. Objectively, however, it is unquestionably worse than the Freewheelers jacket. The leather is crappy, the lining is mediocre, and the construction quality is abhorrent. Schott makes better jackets than this and I don't like Schotts. The Freewheelers and RMC have massively superior leather. The Vanson leather is slightly thicker, but hardly so.

Also, I think the FW jacket fits me very well and the RMC would probably fit well in the right size. To suggest that I sell the FW is silly. Also, anyone suggesting I sell the RMC isn't paying attention because I already said I sold it in the first post.

The Vanson looks cooler because:

1. It's a black leather jacket and people generally seem to think those look cooler

2. It fits me ridiculously well. I know Vanson has great patterns and thats why I bought this. Vanson's patterns outdo everything else about their jackets.

3. It's broken in. This is huge. Anyone saying the leather on the Vanson is better is talking rubbish in my opinion. It only appears better because it's broken in. Full stop.

I love this Vanson jacket and it's not going anywhere, but fit does not equal quality.

Additionally, many on here know that I agree that many Japanese makers have atrocious patterns. Fountainhead, FCL, Double Helix, Y2, Flat Head, etc. However, Freewheelers and RMC do fantastic patterns without a doubt. Not all Japanese makers are equal. I think that much is clear.

Even FW isn't perfect as much as I love them. It's very clear at this point that Greg from Field Leathers has the cleanest stitching in the world on leather jackets. It's obvious. I know my La Brea doesn't fit me perfectly, but it fits well and I believe (though I could be wrong) that it will look absolutely amazing when it breaks in.

 

[Blackadder]

I am going to keep my opinion to myself but I would like to share a story too. I think I have mentioned it briefly before but here is the long story.
I have always wanted a Vanson Chopper. Unfortunately, there is no regular Vanson dealer where I live. I had only been able to find a medium which is too big. When I went to Tokyo in 2015, one of my missions was to find and try a smaller size Chopper. I went to a dealer at Ueno and was told that they do not have the Chopper in stock. I was referred to the sole distributor which happens to be in Tokyo also though it is a bit out of the way, i.e. not located in the usual shopping district.
I visited the Vanson's sole distributor in Japan a couple of days later. It was a small shop but has almost every Vanson model and it only sells Vanson. I was finally able to try on different sizes. After trying on a few jackets I felt obliged to make a small purchase because I knew before I went in that I would only try on the jackets and would never buy the jacket there seeing that Vanson are much more expensive in Japan. So I picked a few Vanson t-shirts and while the owner was going through the boxes to find my t shirts, I struck up a conversation with him which inter alia included asking which Vanson model he wears. I was surprised by his answer because he said he wears Langlitz. I actually had to ask him to repeat his answer because of his regular Japanese accent. Now I know he rides because we also talked about bikes. I also know he is not Langlitz dealer because he only sells Vanson and I have been to Langlitz Japan which is in a different district (Langlitz Japan is located in a famous shopping district called Ebisu that has Toys McCoy, Flathead, Warehouse, Kapital and UES etc).
I doubt you can get a better Vanson expert outside Vanson factory than him. I bet he can order any style he wants from Vanson.
I ended up getting my Vanson Chopper a couple of years later and at that time I already own a few RM and FW jackets but I have never bought a Langlitz. I have been looking to find a second hand Langlitz in my size for some time though.

 

[ton312]

I am quite happy with the Vanson jacket. Objectively, however, it is unquestionably worse than the Freewheelers jacket. The leather is crappy, the lining is mediocre, and the construction quality is abhorrent. Schott makes better jackets than this and I don't like Schotts. The Freewheelers and RMC have massively superior leather. The Vanson leather is slightly thicker, but hardly so.

Also, I think the FW jacket fits me very well and the RMC would probably fit well in the right size. To suggest that I sell the FW is silly. Also, anyone suggesting I sell the RMC isn't paying attention because I already said I sold it in the first post.

The Vanson looks cooler because:

1. It's a black leather jacket and people generally seem to think those look cooler

2. It fits me ridiculously well. I know Vanson has great patterns and thats why I bought this. Vanson's patterns outdo everything else about their jackets.

3. It's broken in. This is huge. Anyone saying the leather on the Vanson is better is talking rubbish in my opinion. It only appears better because it's broken in. Full stop.

I love this Vanson jacket and it's not going anywhere, but fit does not equal quality.

Additionally, many on here know that I agree that many Japanese makers have atrocious patterns. Fountainhead, FCL, Double Helix, Y2, Flat Head, etc. However, Freewheelers and RMC do fantastic patterns without a doubt. Not all Japanese makers are equal. I think that much is clear.

Even FW isn't perfect as much as I love them. It's very clear at this point that Greg from Field Leathers has the cleanest stitching in the world on leather jackets. It's obvious. I know my La Brea doesn't fit me perfectly, but it fits well and I believe (though I could be wrong) that it will look absolutely amazing when it breaks in.

I think what makes the Vanson look better, aside from the fit which is obvious and you seem to admit as much, is a level of authenticity that comes with the Vanson. It can’t be faked or feigned. Your FW will never, and I can assure you, never ever look like that.

My suggestion for selling the FW comes not from a quality standpoint. It is a very high quality piece no doubt, and I never once said otherwise, but the fit is poor. The shoulders are vacant and it’s entirely too long. A cross zip should not fall where it does in the case of your FW. Nor should it appear as tubular through the body. I assume and hopefully rightfully, you can accept these criticisms without taking them as personal insult, but your physique simply does not support this garment.

Of course this is just my two cents and you will do whatever you feel is best. More than anything I’m glad to see you stepped outside your box and wound up with a spectacular jacket.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I think what makes the Vanson look better, aside from the fit which is obvious and you seem to admit as much, is a level of authenticity that comes with the Vanson. It can’t be faked or feigned. Your FW will never, and I can assure you, never ever look like that.

My suggestion for selling the FW comes not from a quality standpoint. It is a very high quality piece no doubt, and I never once said otherwise, but the fit is poor. The shoulders are vacant and it’s entirely too long. A cross zip should not fall where it does in the case of your FW. Nor should it appear as tubular through the body. I assume and hopefully rightfully, you can accept these criticisms without taking them as personal insult, but your physique simply does not support this garment.

Of course this is just my two cents and you will do whatever you feel is best. More than anything I’m glad to see you stepped outside your box and wound up with a spectacular jacket.

Well certainly a Vanson is more authentic simply because it is not a vintage repro. I agree it will never look the same simply because the leather is different. Do I believe it's possible that the Freewheelers could one day look better than the Vanson in terms of being worn in? Yes. However, I also understand that the Vanson may never be matched by any of my other garments in this regard. Most likely, nothing I own will ever look as wonderfully beat up as this Vanson.

You and @Monitor are why I wanted a Vanson and I am so glad I was influenced by you guys because this thing is epic and I love it. If I haven't made this clear, despite it's many flaws, I would take this very Vanson over the vast majority of other leather jackets, including the vast majority of Japanese jackets even if you reduced the price of the Japanese jackets to that of this Vanson.

Yes I do accept your fit criticisms and what is more, I appreciate them. I need people to give me harsh critiques of how things fit me. It's very helpful. Personally, I think the jacket looks good on me, especially when zipped up. Does it look as good as the Vanson on me? Not even close. However, the Vanson has the advantage of being broken in and that is huge. I do agree my body does not suit the Freewheelers as well. That said, I still think it looks good now and will get better. If it doesn't, then I may let it go one day.

The vanson is the worse jacket, but it's also the better jacket for me at this moment.

I'll put it this way:

Do I ever see myself thinking the Vanson is objectively better? No. Do I ever see myself preferring it to the FW? Yes absolutely. Do I ever see myself not liking the fit of the Vanson or selling it? No. Do I ever see myself not liking the fit on the Freewheelers or selling it? Yes.

 

[ton312]

Well certainly a Vanson is more authentic simply because it is not a vintage repro. I agree it will never look the same simply because the leather is different. Do I believe it's possible that the Freewheelers could one day look better than the Vanson in terms of being worn in? Yes. However, I also understand that the Vanson may never be matched by any of my other garments in this regard. Most likely, nothing I own will ever look as wonderfully beat up as this Vanson.

You and @Monitor are why I wanted a Vanson and I am so glad I was influenced by you guys because this thing is epic and I love it. If I haven't made this clear, despite it's many flaws, I would take this very Vanson over the vast majority of other leather jackets, including the vast majority of Japanese jackets even if you reduced the price of the Japanese jackets to that of this Vanson.

Yes I do accept your fit criticisms and what is more, I appreciate them. I need people to give me harsh critiques of how things fit me. It's very helpful. Personally, I think the jacket looks good on me, especially when zipped up. Does it look as good as the Vanson on me? Not even close. However, the Vanson has the advantage of being broken in and that is huge. I do agree my body does not suit the Freewheelers as well. That said, I still think it looks good now and will get better. If it doesn't, then I may let it go one day.

The vanson is the worse jacket, but it's also the better jacket for me at this moment.

I'll put it this way:

Do I ever see myself thinking the Vanson is objectively better? No. Do I ever see myself preferring it to the FW? Yes absolutely. Do I ever see myself not liking the fit of the Vanson or selling it? No. Do I ever see myself not liking the fit on the Freewheelers or selling it? Yes.

So then the next step is to get you into some true vintage halfbelts so that you can drop the “almost” from your blog.

 

[El Marro]

I struck up a conversation with him which inter alia included asking which Vanson model he wears. I was surprised by his answer because he said he wears Langlitz. I actually had to ask him to repeat his answer because of his regular Japanese accent. Now I know he rides because we also talked about bikes. I also know he is not Langlitz dealer because he only sells Vanson

That is a great story, and perhaps not as surprising as one may think. After all, there are plenty of Ford salesman who drive Toyotas and Hondas.
I own two jackets from Langlitz and four from Vanson and I find them to be very similar. Every off the rack size 46 Vanson I have tried fits me almost as well or better than my Langlitz Columbia that was custom made to my measurements. Nothing against Langlitz but I do not consider them superior to Vanson in any way.