Formal Wear Primer

[dhermann1]

How snug fitting are they?

 

[jamespowers]

How snug fitting are they?

They are fairly snug fitting. Easy enough to pick up things and discern what is in your pockets.

 

[Orgetorix]

The ones sold by Brooks Brothers are correct. They're lambskin, but "kid" need not be taken as a hard and fast constraint. The only downside is that they're not sized--just S-M-L-XL sizing.

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCat...lor=WHITE&sort_by=&sectioncolor=&sectionsize=

 

[dhermann1]

If it doesn't have the button at the wrist is it not right? The ones I got are just slightly largish, and are cut like regular dress gloves. Nicely made, nice leather, but they don't seem like they'd look right with the tail coat.
How do you guys feel about the different kinds of cotton and poly and nylon gloves that are out there? Any of good quality?

 

[Midnight Blue]

Moving over to the white tie and tails side of this thread, I'd like to find out about one of the more esoteric aspects of full white tie mufti, the white kid gloves. According to everything I've read, a gentleman must wear gloves that match his overcoat, when he is outdoors, but when he is wearing white tie indoors, he must wear white kid gloves.
I just bought a nice new pair of white kid gloves, and am hoping they're correct. Anyone have any pics of correct kid gloves?
Oh, and how about canes? I've seen some comments that say it should be an ebony or black cane, but I've also seen plain crook wooden canes in many movies. I suspect the latter were completely standard back in the day.

White buckskin was the most commonly prescribed outdoor glove for white tie according to period etiquette books and menswear magazines. White kid were the only option indoors but by the 1920s they were mandatory only at selected White Tie events (primarily at balls so as to avoid touching a lady's back with one's sweaty hand while dancing).

Emily Post books provided very specific cane etiquette:
"Stick (if carried) : Plain Malacca smartest, but if necessary to hide joining, plain gold band permitted. Ebony tabu. Gold or ivory knob the hallmark of the 'imitation gentleman' and never carried by a real one."

 

[Charlie Huang]

Gloves: white kid leather with button closure (so the opening slips inside the cuffs and doesn't bulge out) which should fit tightly like a second skin. Gloves ought to be removed indoors (and placed inside one of the tail pockets or checked in) unless dancing with someone otherwise you run the risk of looking like a waiter.

Cane: for evening wear it should be black ebony with a silver top (gold if your accessories are also gold but that's not essential). I've seen some use a malacca cane with gold/silver top but I feel that this is more appropriate for day wear. Again, should be checked in upon arrival (like top hats, overcoats and scarves) as it is an outdoor accessory.

 

[Midnight Blue]

Cane: for evening wear it should be black ebony with a silver top (gold if your accessories are also gold but that's not essential). I've seen some use a malacca cane with gold/silver top but I feel that this is more appropriate for day wear. Again, should be checked in upon arrival (like top hats, overcoats and scarves) as it is an outdoor accessory.

Charlie, I'm curious to know where you got the cane information as all the historical etiquette guides I've researched say exactly the opposite.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Charlie, I'm curious to know where you got the cane information as all the historical etiquette guides I've researched say exactly the opposite.

From NJS's book plus some logical inference. Given that white tie sticks to the black and white colour scheme, it is thus logical for the cane to also conform to this formal set up of black ebony and silver.

Malacca is a day material gven that it is used for umbrellas (essentially a day object) and its colour and informal nature suggest that it would clash with the black-white balance of formal stiff white tie (hence why I feel it is not really right for white tie).

Going back to movies: Fred Astaire uses the ebony in Top Hat and the malacca in The Bandwagon (with Jack Buchanan).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fizrfcAI13A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehWU8kEx_h4

 

[bradbunnin]

White tie and cane

Vanity Fair reporting on the London scene in 1922: the crooked malacca cane appears both in daytime use and with white tie and tails. Fashions change, of course; but I'd say Vanity Fair is authoritative for its era.

 

[Midnight Blue]

From NJS's book plus some logical inference.

Thank you for providing your sources. One question: are you refering to Nicholas Storey's 2008 book "History of Men's Fashion"? It's a wonderful book with lots of great information but it also contains some details that fly in the face of every historical menswear magazine and etiquette book I've seen in my five years of formalwear research. For example he states that a white bow tie is acceptable with Black Tie, a brown dinner suit is not techncially incorrect because Noel Coward wore one and a black waistcoat is allowable for White Tie because it was once sanctioned by the English court as part of alternative court dress (that also included breeches). No doubt, every rule has had its rare exceptions but I think it's safer to dress according to the former rather than the latter.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Yes, that book.

I do know that some stuff he writes is not strictly correct (and some stuff is very POV) but most of it is logical to some extent.

Sometimes, we must examine why things are done in a certain way and what is the historical, practical and aesthetic reasons behind the evolution of dress. We cannot simply take etiquette guides as gospel as they can be sometimes wrong as well.

White bow tie with black tie: I've seen a print or two with this combo so I cannot see it as being proscribed save that it is a very rare or eccentric thing to do (with a white waistcoat of course).

Noel Coward: I agree that a brown DJ is wrong as there is no logical reason why it could be brown save that NC wore it and that is not a reason in itself as he is the only one to do so as a whim.

Black waistcoat: I'll have you know that black waistcoats with tails (and trousers) are still worn in the House of Lords to this very day. Then we have the DoW. This, again, proves that it is not proscribed save that it is rare to do so and in some circumstances.

Again, if one is well informed about the choices, there is, within reason, to bend some so-called 'rules' if done with intelligence, meditation and thought.

My thoughts on malacca canes is my opinion of course (as indicated in my first post about it). TBH, I have always inferred that a black cane is most appropriate for white tie (I call it a 'natural assumption') as I said it falls perfectly into the scheme of things. Unless one says that the cane is the only thing that does not conform to the colour scheme (and so that is why malacca may/has to be used) then I can only see it having an anomalous and illogical existence in white tie ensemble for which I have no clue as to the rationale behind why it be so the case.

 

[Chasseur]

I'm not a expert here, but one does see black waiscoats worn with white tail and tails in photographs and fashion plates from about 1880 to 1920 or so. Here is that nice photo of Ataturk that pops up now and again.

 

[Midnight Blue]

I'm not a expert here, but one does see black waiscoats worn with white tail and tails in photographs and fashion plates from about 1880 to 1920 or so. Here is that nice photo of Ataturk that pops up now and again.

Yes, black waistcoats were acceptable with full dress from Victorian times until the the turn of the century in England and until the 1920s in America. After that, etiquette guides and menswear authorities only allowed white ones (unless in mourning), and restricted black ones to informal evening wear. As Charlie pointed out, the Duke of Windsor played by his own rules but hey, he was the Prince of Wales after all.

 

[bradbunnin]

Vanity Fair 1922

My source was an on-line copy of the magazine, not the book. Granted, it's just one source—and it seems abundantly clear that various sources have historically taken a variety of positions on proper attire. My point simply was that a source to which people who wore formal dress may well have read prescribed malacca canes with white tie. Other sources took other positions. And that's okay by me!

 

[AntonAAK]

White bow tie with black tie: I've seen a print or two with this combo so I cannot see it as being proscribed save that it is a very rare or eccentric thing to do (with a white waistcoat of course).

On this subject I have often wondered why, when the dinner jacket was first introduced as informal evening wear, the tie changed from white to black?

Surely the first people to wear such a garment would have just donned it over their normal formal attire instead of the tail-coat. Any convention to team it with a black, rather than white tie, would have taken a little while to be adopted. And then there may have been a period when both were acceptable.

And to the traditionalist the vulgar short jacket would have been equally inappropriate with either colour.

Does anybody know why and when the tie colour changed?

A

 

[Qirrel]

It is important to remember that fashion is not rigid or logical, especially at this point when the dinner suit is in its first years. I have seen fashion plates from that time showing both brown, grey and white dinner suits. The most probable answer to your question is that someone started wearing the black tie because they felt like it and it looked good. It is like trying to see the logic in why many people today would rather wear a sweater that is five sizes too large than one that fits them.

 

[AntonAAK]

I tend to agree but then these whims become appropriated into society and become prescriptive.

So yes, somebody wore a black tie and liked it. Others copied him and it became a fashion. After not so many years it became a rule and a white tie with a dinner jacket is deemed 'incorrect'.

That such things can happen I find interesting.

A

 

[Midnight Blue]

I tend to agree but then these whims become approprited into society and become prescriptive.

So yes, somebody wore a black tie and liked it. Others copied him and it became a fashion. After not so many years it became a rule and a white tie with a dinner jacket is deemed 'incorrect'.

That such things can happen I find interesting.

A

You can find a detailed history of the transition from white to black bow ties at the history section of my site.

Some of the theories I've come across during my research are:
-the Prince of Wales (future Edward VII) and his tailor drew inspiration from the British military uniforms of the time, which used short jackets with black ties.
-the black bow tie was first donned by a man to impress a Spanish inamorata

There is one logical choice for assigning black accessories to informal wear, though: white linens were considered more formal because they were more costly to keep clean.

 

[AntonAAK]

Thanks, Midnight Blue. I've read most of your excellent site but must have missed that bit.

I'll take a look.

Anton

 

[Alon]

I have a question about the possibility of mix & matching. Below is a photo of the illustrious composer Tschaikovsky. As you can see he is wearing a formal evening jacket, black vest, but a white bow tie. I think the combination is fetching. But I wonder, in our era of strict adherence to protocol (of course I jest, our era is nothing of the sort, but among us bastions of good taste and formal elegance) can such a thing be done?