Formal Wear Primer

[Midnight Blue]

Can someone tell me when dress shirts with covered buttons came about? The sort where a piece of material runs across the buttons, called a fly front I believe.

In my research the farthest that I've been able to trace them is back to 1959.

 

[avedwards]

Marc Chevalier says that with a shawl collar dinner jacket a cummerbund is best. I tried a black waistcoat with my shawl collar, and it didn't quite look right. I got the old fashioned type with four buttons close to the bottom (as opposed to the ones with six buttons that have a higher neckline that are common now). Next time I wear it I'm gonna try the cummerbund.
I'm not so sure about the fly front shirt (if that's what it should be called.) Never saw that on anyone. A plain tab collar shirt, or a shirt with the wider style ruffle front should be fine. Again, with a tab collar, rather than a stand up.
Before I found the Lounge I would not have made any of the above suggestions, but after reading this thread a thousand times, I think that's the advice you'll get from most folks here. The shawl collar is one of the more casual formal styles available (is that an oxymoron?), so I guess that's why the cummerbund and tab collar would be advisable.
The homburg definitely gets a thumbs up! I feel like a million bucks (all green and wrinkled . . . ba dump bump) when I wear it. However I'm thinking of wearing my black bowler with the get up next time. I think it might be more Runyonesque.

I know why a cummerbund is advisable with a shawl lapel, but I think the rule of wearing a waistcoat with a peak lapel and a cummerbund with a shawl lapel makes black tie become too much of a uniform rather than a dress code. I tried on my outfit anyway, and it looks fine with the waistcoat in question. Evidence that waistcoats were paired with both types of lapel can be found in lots of b/w films. The cloth matches quite well considering the jacket is late 50s and the waistcoat from the 30s. I'm also surprised that the trousers are high waisted enough not to show any shirt front despite having no brace buttons.

As for my shirt collar, it is a turn down. As an Englishman I follow the UK tradition of not wearing wing collared shirts with black tie and reserving them for white tie.

As for the bowler, I don't think it would look right. Bowlers are reserved for daywear only. You can wear one with a stroller, but for black tie you have to wear a homburg (or top hat if you're as cool as Metropd).

 

[avedwards]

In my research the farthest that I've been able to trace them is back to 1959.

In that case I'll have to try and obtain a better shirt for future wear. However, for Tuesday I'll just have to go for a late 50s look.

 

[Charlie Huang]

As for the bowler, I don't think it would look right. Bowlers are reserved for daywear only. You can wear one with a stroller, but for black tie you have to wear a homburg (or top hat if you're as cool as Metropd).

Most certainly.

Bowlers are business or country wear.

 

[avedwards]

Most certainly.

Bowlers are business or country wear.

By businesswear, do you include a stroller?

 

[Cobden]

Strollers (the somewhat inane American term)/black lounge (the somewhat inaccurate british term) were considered businesswhere in the UK - the origin (well, from what I've been told. I'm sure someone will come up with a competing argument!) is from the morning coat - at the time semi formal businesswear. As it was impractical to wear a morning coat whilst seated and whilst doing many of the things required in an office in the era (WWI era was when they grew in popularity), many took to changing from the long coat into a short jacket when they were in the office (changing back into morning coats when leaving the indoors). Over time, people realised this was pointless (and I'd think the effects of wartime austerity played it's part), and thus the black lounge was born. With the standard suitification from the 1960's onwards the black lounge pretty much died out as business wear by the mid 1970's.

Now to add a bit of controversy: I always thought one didn't wear a top hat with a jacket - only with a coat (as in morning or tail or frock rather then over or top or great), and a bowler was only worn with a jacket udirng the day rather then a coat

 

[dhermann1]

Yes, I know that. But if you check out a few of the films of the early 30's, such as the Thin Man series, you'll see a lot of Nick's cigar chomping Broadway cronies sporting tuxes and derbies. I like that look.
Improper. Yeah. That's my middle name.

 

[bradbunnin]

Shirt front

Even in the fifties (when I attended my senior prom in a dinner jacket), fly front dress shirts weren't worn. Nor would you want a heavily starched shirt, suitable for earlier eras. A pleated front, studded, turn-down collared shirt, with cummerbund, would be appropriate with a shawl-collared dinner jacket. But don't fret if, for that one evening this week, you're not quite perfectly turned out. Just have fun!

 

[jamespowers]

Even in the fifties (when I attended my senior prom in a dinner jacket)

It wasn't a white coat with a pink carnation?


(Robbins is said to have had the inspiration for the song while driving from a motel to a venue in Ohio where he was due to perform that evening. During the course of the journey, he passed a high school, where the students were dressed ready for their prom.)

 

[dnjan]

bottom stud on three-button waistcoat

What is the verdict on fastening the bottom stud on a three-button waistcoat? I've read the stuff on the normal five- or six-button waistcoats, but it seems like a waste to leave the bottom stud un-done on a three-button?

 

[Tomasso]

What is the verdict on fastening the bottom stud on a three-button waistcoat?

Button it up....it ain't a lounge suit.

 

[Midnight Blue]

What is the verdict on fastening the bottom stud on a three-button waistcoat?

Evening waistcoats should always be completely buttoned.

 

[benstephens]

As for my shirt collar, it is a turn down. As an Englishman I follow the UK tradition of not wearing wing collared shirts with black tie and reserving them for white tie.

.

Avedwards

What is your premise for this statement, I do agree that in the 1950s turn down collars may have been more prevalent than wing collars, but I am not sure it is tradition as much as fashion dictated?

Kindest Regards

 

[Lokar]

I must agree, I'm really not sure that the UK has a "tradition" of wing collars being exclusively for white tie, at least in the 20s and 30s. Maybe that happened later, but I'd say that's just because wing collars were more awkward and inconvenient, and as white tie became worn exclusively by the top upper class, wing collars disappeared from general stores (and so most people wearing black tie had no choice but a turndown.) I generally follow the idea that peaked lapel = wing (pointy goes with pointy!), shawl lapel = turndown, white waistcoat = wing.

Now to add a bit of controversy: I always thought one didn't wear a top hat with a jacket - only with a coat (as in morning or tail or frock rather then over or top or great), and a bowler was only worn with a jacket udirng the day rather then a coat

You generally only wear a top hat with a body coat (as you say, frock, morning or dress coats), but that's only because a top hat is very formal, as are those coats. Top hats were definitely acceptable with dinner jackets at first, even if the homburg became the hat of choice later. Wearing top hats exclusively with body coats isn't doing anything wrong, though, of course.

I've seen period photos of bowler hats worn with frock coats, however, so that's definitely wrong.'

What is the verdict on fastening the bottom stud on a three-button waistcoat? I've read the stuff on the normal five- or six-button waistcoats, but it seems like a waste to leave the bottom stud un-done on a three-button?

That question points out the flaw with people insisting "always leave the bottom button undone!"

You should leave the bottom undone on any waistcoat that has been cut/tailored to have it stay undone. No formal waistcoat is cut like that, but neither are some vintage (especially Victorian or 1900s/1910s) or most modern.

See how on the top image, the bottom button is exactly the same as the top five in horizontal position, and doesn't warp the form of the waistcoat (indeed, it probably supports it). On the bottom image, the bottom button is in a different horizontal position to the other buttons (it's actually on the pointy bottom of the waistcoat), and buttoning it would ruin the shape.

I wasn't directing this at you dnjan, it's just a point I wanted to make.

 

[dnjan]

Thanks for the bottom button advice. It definitely matches with what to me is common sense.

First wearing of my new waistcoat will be in about 2 weeks (25th wedding anniversary dinner).
Off-white, three-button, with a vertical buttonhole below the top regular buttonhole for my watch chain.
I'll try to have someone take our picture.

 

[Lensmaster]

How much would people be willing to pay for silk top hats? In the last year I think I've probably seen 15-20 silk plush top hats, ranging in size from 55cm to 59cm (US 6 7/8 to US 7 3/8). The most expensive was $62, but I bought mine (59cm) for $18. Shipping might be a problem (potential damage to the hat? I'd have no idea how to safely pack a topper), and it's a bit on the expensive side in Sweden, but I'd be willing to post any I find at no profit for myself..

Actually, let me check how much postage would cost (I can use my topper for dimensions and weight etc.), and then I'll start a thread or something. Can see what sizes I should keep my eye open for, etc. Carry on for now.

Did you ever find out what shipping costs would be, to the U.S.? I have a beaver fur topper but would love to get a silk plush. The price range you have been seeing is good. But I don't know if it costs a lot to ship. Keep a look out for a 58 (I think that's what my current topper is).

 

[Lokar]

Unfortunately as the weather has been horrendously cold, most flea markets and things have been closed due to weather. They're starting to open again, I stumbled upon a silk topper but the brim had been completely flattened and there was no grosgrain ribbon, so I didn't grab it. Shipping would possibly be something crazy like $25-30, it depends on whether I can find perfectly sized boxes. Once I start getting to go to the markets that had toppers, I'll start finding things out properly.

 

[Chasseur]

Lokar,

Not to jump on the bandwagon, but I'd be interested too at those prices for a larger topper 59-60.

 

[Lokar]

59-60 will probably be harder (I'm 59, I do have one, but only one - not that I need more), but yeah, I'll let you know.

 

[Chasseur]

Lokar,

Thanks, but no worries I'm not in a hurry. Let me know if you need anything from Hawaii.