For the want of a nail----

[fedoralover]

as the ditty goes the kingdom was lost, showing how a "seemingly small" and insignificant thing can lead to a major disaster.
I thought of this as I was reading about how the assassination of Austrian Archduke Francis Ferdinand and his wife by a Serbian terrorist on June 28th 1914 was the spark that touched off World War 1. And it made me wonder if a couple of cartoons would be the spark that touched off Armaggeddon.

fedoralover

 

[shamus]

Well it won't start Armageddon, but it could start another war.

Many people don't understand that this is not about a "cartoon." It's not a Far Side that's gone amuck. This is a blatant full on attack on their religious core. It's like Ozzie taking a wiz on the Alamo.

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

Honestly I don't see how anybody can justify the violance that is being perpetrated in the name of Islam and those stupid cartoons. Civilized people don't kill other people and burn cars and buildings because of some cartoon in an obscure paper in some foreign country.

You know what I think? I think that the muslims are just using these cartoons as an excuse to riot, blow up stuff and fight the people they wanted to fight anyway. Certainly there are higher-ups in various hierarchies who are pushing that sort of agenda to the people on the street hoping it will stir up violance and unrest.

The idea of "fighting words" disappeared from our culture years and years ago. Apparently the muslim world hasn't gotten the message.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Portrayal of the prophet. Big no-no. A bit like worshiping false idols in times past.

bk

 

[scotrace]

Don't care at all

If it's a no-no. Not a whit. It's no excuse for rioting and bombing.

I want to riot and bomb when muslims burn US or British (or French or Spanish or German) flags. But I am not a barbarian.

 

[Big Man]

It's just my opinion, nothing more ...

I think the real problem comes from fanatical religious fundamentalists (be they Muslim, Christian, Jew, or whatever) and the people behind them who have an agenda of their own that has nothing to do with religion at all.

 

[shamus]

Civilized people don't kill other people and burn cars and buildings because of some cartoon in an obscure paper in some foreign country.

Your right. Civilized people kill people and burn cars and building when their sports team win or loose. Not because of a cartoon.

 

[Steve]

For want of spines, half Europe could be lost in my opinion.

 

[mysterygal]

there's never a good reason for bombing/violence..and I agree that it has nothing to do with religion and certainly not a cartoon (please!) , there's people out there who are looking for any kind of excuse to do violence..and sometimes no excuse is needed

 

[LaMedicine]

I think the real problem comes from fanatical religious fundamentalists (be they Muslim, Christian, Jew, or whatever) and the people behind them who have an agenda of their own that has nothing to do with religion at all.

I agree. The problem is how many realise/understand that they are being used in that agenda, and that they are actually dispensible people to those who have set that agenda up.

 

[mysterygal]

the people are totally dispensable, and that's what makes it so sad

 

[J. M. Stovall]

From Wikipedia

Islamic tradition

The Qur'an, Islam's holiest book, condemns idolatry, but has no direct condemnations of pictorial art. Direct prohibitions of pictorial art, or any depiction of sacred figures, are found in certain hadiths, or recorded oral traditions.

Views regarding pictorial representation within several religious communities have varied from group to group, and from time to time. Among Muslims, the Shi'a Muslims have been generally tolerant of pictorial representation of human figures including Muhammad. Indeed a fatwa exists given by Ali al-Sistani, the Shi'a marja of Iraq, stating that it is permissible to make pictures of Muhammad, if done with the highest respect. Sunni Muslims are considered less tolerant. However, the Sunni Ottomans, the last dynasty to claim the caliphate, were not only tolerant but even patrons of miniaturist art, some of which depicted Muhammad. These depictions usually show Muhammad's face covered with a veil or as a featureless void emanating light (depicted as flames).

Most contemporary Muslims believe that ordinary portraits and photos, films and illustrations, are permissible. Only some Salafi and Islamist interpretations of Sunni Islam still condemn pictorial representations of any kind. Offensive or satirical pictures are a different case ?¢‚Ǩ‚Äù disrespect to Islam or to Muhammad is still widely considered blasphemous or sacrilegious, and blasphemy is seen as a kind of apostasy, which many Muslims believe should be punished by death, though not all Muslims agree that this is the only or correct interpretation.

According to the BBC "It is the satirical intent of the cartoonists, and the association of the Prophet with terrorism, that is so offensive to the vast majority of Muslims."

 

[J. M. Stovall]

And this from Flemming Rose, culture editor of the Danish paper that ran the cartoons explains his intent:

The cartoonists treated Islam the same way they treat Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism and other religions. And by treating Muslims in Denmark as equals they made a point: We are integrating you into the Danish tradition of satire because you are part of our society, not strangers. The cartoons are including, rather than excluding, Muslims. [...] Angry voices claim the [bomb in the turban] cartoon is saying that the prophet is a terrorist or that every Muslim is a terrorist. I read it differently: Some individuals have taken the religion of Islam hostage by committing terrorist acts in the name of the prophet. They are the ones who have given the religion a bad name.

 

[herringbonekid]

For want of spines, half Europe could be lost in my opinion.

this is a bit cryptic for me.
what are you trying to say exactly ?

 

[Steve]

this is a bit cryptic for me.
what are you trying to say exactly ?

Look at it this way. France, Britain, and the Scandinavian countries all have very high populations of Muslims that frequently rise to the occaision of picking religious fights. And very often they get off with little or no backlash from the rest of the country.

That's what I was saying.

 

[herringbonekid]

ok, i undertsand you now. but backlash isn't what volatile political/religious situations need.

 

[Doh!]

I don't know if you guys caught "60 Minutes" a couple of weeks ago, but they did a story on this topic and that was where I heard this interesting tidbit: Danish imams generated the entire controversy by distributing a booklet that, sure, contained the 12 Danish cartoons... and some images that were NEVER printed in the newspaper. These images were far more offensive than anything that the Danes put out. The below link includes the 12 originals and the additional images so click it at your own risk.

Even if the Danes HAD published the more-offensive images just to be jerks, killing people and destroying property is not the most civilized way to demonstrate your displeasure. Years ago, an art exhibit included a photographic image titled "P*** Christ" that many, many Christians were upset over... yet none burned down the museum.

My point goes beyond freedom of speech. Today, extremist Muslims are upset over depictions of Mohammed. How soon before they riot because Western women are showing a lot of skin in public instead of wearing the burka -- which is also "offensive?"

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/jyllands-posten_cartoons/

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

Or in plain English

You give them a inch and they'll take a mile here and mile there, then we're all screwed. Of course the first to get under Sharia law would be the ever so tolerant Libs and all their special intrests such as Gays, Hollywood, ect.
DR
I think thse folks can say it better than I cna though. OK I'll shuddup now.

A MANIFESTO AGAINST ISLAMISM
By Michelle Malkin ?Ǭ? February 28, 2006 08:06 PM

Danish reader P.H.N. sends an important document published today in the Jyllands-Posten from 12 brave intellectuals:

MANIFESTO: Together facing the new totalitarianism

After having overcome fascism, Nazism, and Stalinism, the world now faces a new totalitarian global threat: Islamism.

We, writers, journalists, intellectuals, call for resistance to religious totalitarianism and for the promotion of freedom, equal opportunity and secular values for all.

The recent events, which occurred after the publication of drawings of Muhammed in European newspapers, have revealed the necessity of the struggle for these universal values. This struggle will not be won by arms, but in the ideological field. It is not a clash of civilisations nor an antagonism of West and East that we are witnessing, but a global struggle that confronts democrats and theocrats.

Like all totalitarianisms, Islamism is nurtured by fears and frustrations. The hate preachers bet on these feelings in order to form battalions destined to impose a liberticidal and unegalitarian world. But we clearly and firmly state: nothing, not even despair, justifies the choice of obscurantism, totalitarianism and hatred. Islamism is a reactionary ideology which kills equality, freedom and secularism wherever it is present. Its success can only lead to a world of domination: man's domination of woman, the Islamists' domination of all the others. To counter this, we must assure universal rights to oppressed or discriminated people.

We reject cultural relativism, which consists in accepting that men and women of Muslim culture should be deprived of the right to equality, freedom and secular values in the name of respect for cultures and traditions. We refuse to renounce our critical spirit out of fear of being accused of "Islamophobia", an unfortunate concept which confuses criticism of Islam as a religion with stigmatisation of its believers.

We plead for the universality of freedom of expression, so that a critical spirit may be exercised on all continents, against all abuses and all dogmas.

We appeal to democrats and free spirits of all countries that our century should be one of Enlightenment, not of obscurantism.

12 signatures

Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Chahla Chafiq
Caroline Fourest
Bernard-Henri L?ɬ©vy
Irshad Manji
Mehdi Mozaffari
Maryam Namazie
Taslima Nasreen
Salman Rushdie
Antoine Sfeir
Philippe Val
Ibn Warraq
Manifesto signatories:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, from somilian origin, is member of Dutch parliement, member of the liberal party VVD. Writter of the film Submission which caused the assasination of Theo Van Gogh by an islamist in november 2004, she lives under police protection.


Chahla Chafiq
Chahla Chafiq, writer from iranian origin, exiled in France is a novelist and an essayist. She's the author of "Le nouvel homme islamiste , la prison politique en Iran " (2002). She also wrote novels such as "Chemins et brouillard" (2005).


Caroline Fourest
Essayist, editor in chief of Prochoix (a review who defend liberties against dogmatic and integrist ideologies), author of several reference books on ?Ǭ´ laicit?ɬ© ?Ǭª and fanatism : Tirs Crois?ɬ©s : la la?ɬØcit?ɬ© ?ɬ† l'?ɬ©preuve des int?ɬ©grismes juif, chr?ɬ©tien et musulman (with Fiammetta Venner), Fr?ɬ®re Tariq : discours, strat?ɬ©gie et m?ɬ©thode de Tariq Ramadan, et la Tentation obscurantiste (Grasset, 2005). She receieved the National prize of laicit?ɬ© in 2005.

Bernard-Henri L?ɬ©vy
French philosoph, born in Algeria, engaged against all the XXth century ?Ǭ´ ism ?Ǭª (Fascism, antisemitism, totalitarism, terrorism), he is the author of La Barbarie ?ɬ† visage humain, L'Id?ɬ©ologie fran?ɬßaise, La Puret?ɬ© dangereuse, and more recently American Vertigo.

Irshad Manji
Irshad Manji is a Fellow at Yale University and the internationally best-selling author of "The Trouble with Islam Today: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith" (en francais: "Musulmane Mais Libre"). She speaks out for free expression based on the Koran itself. N?ɬ©e en Ouganda, elle a fui ce pays avec sa famille musulmane d'origine indienne ?ɬ† l'?ɬ¢ge de quatre ans et vit maintenant au Canada, o?ɬ? ses ?ɬ©missions et ses livres connaissent un ?ɬ©norme succ?ɬ®s.

Mehdi Mozaffari
Mehdi Mozaffari, professor from iranian origin and exiled in Denmark, is the author of several articles and books on islam and islamism such as : Authority in Islam: From Muhammad to Khomeini, Fatwa: Violence and Discourtesy and Glaobalization and Civilizations.

Maryam Namazie
Writer, TV International English producer; Director of the Worker-communist Party of Iran's International Relations; and 2005 winner of the National Secular Society's Secularist of the Year award.

Taslima Nasreen
Taslima Nasreen is born in Bangladesh. Doctor, her positions defending women and minorities brought her in trouble with a comittee of integrist called ?Ǭ´ Destroy Taslima ?Ǭª and to be persecuted as ?Ǭ´ apostate ?Ǭª

Salman Rushdie
Salman Rushdie is the author of nine novels, including Midnight's Children, The Satanic Verses and, most recently, Shalimar the Clown. He has received many literary awards, including the Booker Prize, the Whitbread Prize for Best Novel, Germany's Author of the Year Award, the European Union's Aristeion Prize, the Budapest Grand Prize for Literature, the Premio Mantova, and the Austrian State Prize for European Literature. He is a Commandeur of the Ordre des Arts et Lettres, an Honorary Professor in the Humanities at M.I.T., and the president of PEN American Center. His books have been translated into over 40 languages.

Philippe Val
Director of publication of Charlie Hebdo (Leftwing french newspaper who have republished the cartoons on the prophet Muhammad by solidarity with the danish citizens targeted by islamists).

Ibn Warraq
Ibn Warraq , author notably of Why I am Not a Muslim ; Leaving Islam : Apostates Speak Out ; and The Origins of the Koran , is at present Research Fellow at a New York Institute conducting philological and historical research into the Origins of Islam and its Holy Book.

Antoine Sfeir :
Born in Lebanon, christian, Antoine Sfeir choosed french nationality to live in an universalist and ?Ǭ´ la?ɬØc ?Ǭª (real secular) country. He is the director of Les cahiers de l'Orient and has published several reference books on islamism such as Les r?ɬ©seaux d'Allah (2001) et Libert?ɬ©, ?ɬ©galit?ɬ©, Islam : la R?ɬ©publique face au communautarisme (2005).

 

[mysterygal]

and from what I've heard, just about everything is offensive to them as far as western culture is concerned...not that I'm on their side or anything but we have gone down hill quite a bit

 

[docholliday55]

Well put Big Man. I totally agree.
doc