i love wearing nylons so i bought a pair: REViEW of the Alpha B-15 & N-2B

[polocoat]

My comments above were posted after I spoke to Alpha Customer Service. If you have ever held a Buzz Rickson you will know what I mean by "heavy nylon twill fabric." Go to the BR site and read the lengthy description of the L-2a. As a matter of fact, they specifically say the BR L-2a should not be confused with the cheaper flight satin fabric. When you look at period pics of L-2as you can readily see the difference between heavy nylon twil fabric and the Alpha L-2a. Whether it's worth it to you to spend $500.00 for the BR is another matter. The Alpha seems like a nice jacket for the money and I'm sure you will be happy with it.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

the nylon controversy

thanks polo for the info, but it still looks to me like buzz hype (i like that phrase!) from rickson. here's their statement: 'Buzz Rickson’s heavy nylon twill fabric is never to be confused with the cheap, flimsy flight satin used by lesser manufacturers to produce so-called vintage reproduction USAF flying jackets. In fact, the only other flying jackets in the world today made from this nylon are those original vintage examples of the USAF!'

i'm sure their 'heavy nylon twill' is different from 'cheap, flimsy flight satin', seeing that rickson has concocted this 'cheap flimsy flight satin' definition themselves, and that 'cheap flimsy flight satin' would be different than 'rugged hearty flight satin'. sounds like they are simply claiming all other reproducers use flimsier material than they do, since 'heavy nylon twill' is the same fabric as 'flight satin'

aside from the word games, unless one thinks the alpha U.S. sales manager is lying on the record, then rickson's statement does not apply to alpha. and since rickson does not name alpha by name, they are probably not.

alpha, unlike rickson, actually made these and many other jackets for the U.S. military under contract. but, with due respect polo, it seems you are taking rickson's statement to apply to alpha and alpha jackets, when in fact, like all clever ad hype, rickson's statement doesn't specify who they actually mean by the comment 'lesser manufacturers.'

as for alpha being a good jacket for the money, i'd agree with you. and so would the U.S. military, which contracted with alpha to make the L-2A, the B-15, MA, CPU, etc (as well as the current ECWCS and NWCS).

as for whether alpha has changed the fabric over time, i wouldn't claim Hy Slavin is lying as to alpha not having changed their fabric from their contracted jackets of the past to their current jackets. i simply don't think he's making it up, and i don't think the U.S. sales manager of a company like alpha industries would do something as counterproductive as to make up company history to some ex-reporter writing posts on a clothing website.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

difference in fabrics?

'When you look at period pics of L-2as you can readily see the difference between heavy nylon twil fabric and the Alpha L-2a'---polocoat

thought i'd take you up on this polo, and quite honestly, i don't see a difference between the buzz rickson replica L-2A fabric, the alpha L-2A fabric, and the actual vietnam issue L-2B by alpha, which used the same flight satin as in their U.S. military contracted L-2A, as well as all their nylon flight jackets:

above, the buzz rickson, looking awfully shiney and satiny

above, the vietnam era alpha military contract L-2B, looking less shiney than the buzzer

above, the current day alpha L-2A, looking pretty much like their vietnam issue L-2B

 

[polocoat]

My original posting was an effort to inform so some would not be fooled. I've worn original L-2a's and have compared them with the BR L-2a; the fabric of the BR are identical to original L-2a's. Although I haven't compared/contrasted them with the "newest" Alphas, I'm very familiar with the Alpha L-2a's that were sold two years ago. These Alphs were NOT the same as the originals as they pertain to the nylon fabric. By the way, it is interesting to note that I can find no record that Alpha ever manufactured original government spec. (J5391A) L-2a's for the government. Keep in mind, Alpha didn't even come into existance until October 1959, LONG AFTER the L-2a in 1952 was replaced by the L-2B and certainly years before Viet Nam. Lastly, all creditable references that I have found concerning original USAF nylon flight jackets of the early 50's make NO mention of "flight satin" or any other type of "satin" but, always describe the fabric as nylon.

 

[Edward]

Could there be a question here of differing lines from Alpha? They seem at any one time to have a whole bunch of other takes on the USAF jackets in addition to the ones being touted as their replica line. I wish there was more competition at all price points for repros of the military nylon jackets, but unless Hollywood puts out something highly influential featuring one of them, the lack of WW2 connection is probably against it.

 

[Otter]

Always thought that would be a good seam to mine, a remake of Bridges at Toko Ri, or a whole new film "Mig Alley".

 

[Aerojoe]

My 2cents

Original L-2s have nothing to do with B-15s. L-2s were thin jackets made of heavy nylon twill. Thin but still and surprisingly quite warm. Now, some rep makers are producing L-2s with the very same fabric they use to manufacture B-15s, N-2Bs, N-3Bs and all the nylon range. Maybe this is the issue polocoat was trying to address here.

Then, current Alpha products are quite different from vintage Alphas military contract ages. Just take a military m-65 and a current Alpha m-65. It's a fashion garment against a rough jacket.

And finally, there have been some rumors around in the late years about where Alpha is actually manufacturing. Maybe part of the controversy that arises when talking about this brand has something to do with these rumors.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

mystery live on, or not

truly a fascinating subject. i can't add any more but to point out what both Hy Slavin of alpha, AND buzz rickson, state...that the fabric for the L-2A and L-2B are the same. on the rickson site they specifiy the same exact advertising hyperbole on their L-2A and L-2B replicas...so even according to them there was no difference in what was in both those jackets.

alpha's history making U.S. contract military jackets is indeed listed as starting in 1959, which would explain their copious making of L-2B jackets, which according to rickson and every information on the subject, has the same flight nylon in them for contracted military jackets as the L-2A. and just looking at the pictures, and many more i would not inflict on people, the material is very obviously, to me anyway, the same. that sameness was evident in many more pictures i've seen of other manufacturer legit contracted jackets to the U.S. military.

it's the same stuff.

if anyone wants to take rickson's advertising hype beyoned probably what rickson intended it, to say 'theirs' is better than 'yours'...that's what makes superbowl betting parties. to me it's like claiming parliament's recessed filters were better than kent's micronite filters (sorry i'm old enough to remember those ads).

rickson doesn't claim their L-2A flight nylon is technically different than what alpha used (which is the same they use now, you can see it and they state it) on contract L-2B's...they just write their ad copy to imply it vis a vis all of their competitors. they state some unspecified replica makers as who their fabric is better than.

in the end rickson's higher prices come down to the custom nature of their jackets, not that they have some recessed or micronite filter, or some super nylon twill different than what U.S. military contract makers used back in the day on L-2Bs, which had the same fabric as the L-2A.

it's fun discussing the stuff, like how many Angels on the head of a pin. but the pictures and historical information suggest any such claims here are subjective vs. fact. still, do enjoy your rickson, i'm enjoying my alphas.

 

[Otter]

Anybody asked who actualy makes Ricksons jackets? Do they have their own lines or do they have them made on someone elses utilising slack production?

 

[polocoat]

And finally, the BR L-2a is made with nylon twill according to the original military specification; the Alpha L-2a, in contrast, is made with plain weave "flight nylon." When examined in person, the two look and feel differently This difference in weaves also affects the drape of the garment. To the uneducated, both jackets may look the same in pictures however, they are not. We've only discussed the authenticity, or lack thereof, of the Alpha L-2a outer shell and not the jacket liner, stitching, thread, zippers, insulation etc. Maybe we should examine all facets of the Alpha L-2a contrasted with the BR? No, I've learned my lesson.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

we could go on ad infinitum polo, but the most basic fact is that what alpha sent to vietnam for our U.S. military will work for me. rickson may in fact put better fabric, and better production in their product than original milspec (i don't know), which some people may prefer, but what went to war in original contract production is what i wanted.

and i don't doubt for a moment what the U.S. sales manager for alpha says, that his company has not downgraded or changed that nylon fabric since the original contract versions. i've seen and held original B-15s and there's no difference, and the pictures show that, to me anyway.

it's nice then that rickson may allegedly be making a higher quality production version of contracted U.S. military jackets, if what you say is correct. i don't think they are, but if they are, nothing wrong with that.

 

[Edward]

Always thought that would be a good seam to mine, a remake of Bridges at Toko Ri, or a whole new film "Mig Alley".

It may happen eventually. Sometimes I assume WW2 is easier to sell due to the perceived lack of moral ambiguity, but then I look back at the whole slew of Vietnam flicks made in the Eighties... whatever the perspective they took on the ethics of that conflict, they certainly brought plenty of era-specific military kit to the big screen.

My 2cents

Original L-2s have nothing to do with B-15s. L-2s were thin jackets made of heavy nylon twill. Thin but still and surprisingly quite warm. Now, some rep makers are producing L-2s with the very same fabric they use to manufacture B-15s, N-2Bs, N-3Bs and all the nylon range. Maybe this is the issue polocoat was trying to address here.

The L-2A and L2-B - and, indeed, the original L2 - are, to the best of my knowledge, different from each other only in colour (olive / blue / sage, later sage with orange lining). Can't comment further than that without being able to compare Alpha and Buzz directly (as I can with the B15s). I should have thought it possible that different contractors produced variations on the spec, much as with the A2.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

don't confuse numbers with specs aerojoe

'some rep makers are producing L-2s with the very same fabric they use to manufacture B-15s, N-2Bs, N-3Bs and all the nylon range.'--aerojoe

throw in cpu's and ma's aero...they not only SEEM to be reproduced all with the same nylon twill flight satin, but when made under contract to the U.S. military, they WERE also made with the same heavy twill nylon known as flight satin for their outer shell.

it's become a quote ad nauseum here to refer back to Hy Slavin of alpha industries, which made all of these except the L-2A under contract. but as a reporter i ran down what i thought were fully explained facts for editors who never had enough sources. i'll be happy to contact some more people than Hy, if you don't like him, to verify the same facts for you and others who think contract manufacturers somehow changed their bulk nylon fabric from model to model that they made for the govt.

as for moral ambiguity edward, i'll agree hitler was good for doing away with that.

 

[Peacoat]

I haven't read this whole thread because, frankly, nylon holds little interest for me, but thought I would throw in my comments on the subject. Let me preface my short remarks by saying there are real nylon flight jacket experts on this Forum and on the VLJ forum. Even though I wore nylon flight jackets for four years as a pilot, my expertise lies elsewhere.

I pulled out three of my nylon flight jackets. Two are official US Army/Air Force flight jackets. One is a 1967 Satellite L-2B. Another is a 1969 Alpha MA-1. The third is a non issue Alpha L-2B, which is undated. The nylon shell on all three are exactly the same: a sturdy and thick nylon that feels as though it would last for a long time. There is some difference in color, that I never noticed when I was wearing them so many years ago. The Alpha L-2B is about the same color as the Satellite L-2B, with the Alpha MA-1 being just a bit darker. Other than that the three are the same. Of course the MA-1 has insulation and is a heavier jacket, but the shell is the same as the other two issued jackets.

So, to summarize what started to be a short comment: The "civilian" Alpha has the same quality outer shell as the "issued" Satellite and Alpha flight jackets. All three jackets are from a time long ago.

BTW J squared, there is a shift key on the keyboard that allows one to capitalize when appropriate.

Cheers, PC.

 

[Baron Enski]

Hi
Ive got both , first bought Alpha B15c vintage back in 1998 and have just got a Buzz Rickson olive drab B15c. Firstly when I bought the Alpha from a shop in Brighton, they also had the Buzz Ricksons, these were the standard blue ones . I wanted to know what the differance was , the shop assistant said the quality of the materials in the Buzz real fir collar and heavy shell. Ok I could see the collar but as for the shell did seem the same.Then I asked the price £170 for the Buzz , £75 for the Alpha. The Buzz ended up back on the shelf . What can I say I wasnt really the collector like I am today I had nt heard of Buzz Rickson back then, wonder what Id have done if it was now. That said the Alpha has lasted 14 years in one piece being worn constantly , only the main zip giveing trouble recently . Leaving me excuse to buy the Buzz . The Buzz really does seem a quality jacket and the collar is nice against the neck. Their you go, you pays your money !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Peacoat]

If that Alpha is still in good shape, you might want to spring 20 quid for a new zip. They are often the first to go and are easily replaced.

 

[Aerojoe]

The problem with Alpha Industries is not their vintage jackets, it's their current line right now. Let me show you what's going on OUTSIDE the USA;

This is the case of the famous American company Alpha Industries, which now routinely produces in China, Vietnam and Egypt their flight jackets in the version intended for the civilian market. In fact, only the jackets for the U.S. military units are still manufactured in the United States. So today if you and I want to buy a jacket “original” Alpha Industries, we have to buy it with a label “Made in China or Made in Vietnam, or perhaps Egypt. I know that it may sound strange, but it’s the truth. Perhaps it is one of the effects of market globalization.

Otherwise we have a further possibility: to buy original jackets on Outlet Florence, which owns the largest European store of original American flight jackets, the ones that still belong to the U.S. production of Knoxville, Tennessee.

http://www.alphaindustriesmadeusa.com/are-all-chinese-products-a-“fake”/

And yet worse, here in Europe you can spot some faked chinese Alpha jackets (and chinese faked anything, what the hell). That's in my opinion the reason for so much controversy around this brand. Vintage Alpha owners and many US customers swear by their jackets and they're right doing so but outside the USA you can find some pieces of real junk, faked or not. I want to think they are faked.

BTW, I love m-1a and cwu45 but they are not easy to wear where I live because they are associated with skinhead movement.

 

[Otter]

I know what you mean, I have a fairly short haircut (imagine USMC standard buzz cut) so I always hesitate to wear my CWU 45, shame as it is such a warm comfy jacket. Damn those skinheads!

 

[ButteMT61]

Original skinheafs were cool. Just be one of those.

 

[Edward]

Original skinheafs were cool. Just be one of those.

Yes, I feel sorry for those guys when they get lumped in with the racist idiots (though EDL types these days seem to have moved away from that look again). At a time I'd have thought twice about it myself - I shave my head completely as an aesthetic choice (I prefer it over thinning), and also wear a B15C Mod on occasion, as well a numerous Harringtons. Still, noone has ever mistaken me for a skinhead of any description, let alone one with far right politics. I did get asked by some kids once whether I was "a Nazi", but only after I had confirmed that I was not "a gay". This while wearing a Brando style leather, and black drainpipes..... and white brothel creepers....