Five Star Leather Jackets

[PilotJens]

The thing about messing up measurements comes from rushing or misinterpreted body shapes .

They try to match the most important measurement to a existing size and pattern and then modify accordingly.
My all weather halfbelt has a 43-44 shoulder and my cossack has a 47-47 shoulder even though I specified the same measurement.
They took a existing pattern and modified it .
The stock had straight shoulders and after complaining about the first version I wanted round ones .They probably had a fixed formula for round shoulders like 3cm upward from point XYZ.

So they moved that point upward.
The stock pattern had a size XYZ neck opening which moved 3cm upward.
So now they connected the dots and didn't think about it too much .
Then they add the custom sleeve opening and after going back to a fixed formula they again connected the dots .
It is really easy to overlook certain areas if you work on a tight schedule or in a certain speed.
A premade properly scaled pattern is way easier.
They don't start from scratch probably.They match and modify .
If size M has a 24cm armholes and size XL has the desired 26cm armholes and your base pattern is size M then they take the XL sleeve and modify from there. If the XL sleeve is matching the desired bicep shape then they take that shape and size .If the cuff you want matches size M relatively well then they take that and add it to the XL sleeve .

It is mix and match to make it even possible.
However this can lead to problems.

Slimming XYZ down changes things from curved to straight for example.

 

[PilotJens]

I just ordered a second cossack in black with more leeway for their pattern makers and will see if it changes anything.

My all weather halfbelt has perfect mobility . Full range of motion and the jacket doesn't rise up .

My cossack however is the complete opposite. I think the lining in my cossack is too small .It feels like the lining prevents the movement to a certain extent .

The all weather halfbelt had way more room in the lining which made it possible to stretch the hide from xxs to xs/S for a custom fit

 

[Furrowson]

Very well said! I realize I come off as a dick in this thread but in all honesty, I’m trying to save people wasted time, money and effort. Perhaps my delivery is too harsh. I think you summed it up perfectly.

Thanks man, fwiw I don't think you were being dick. A shlong maybe ;P

 

[mysternee]

I would honestly recommend just giving it a delicate machine wash with a few drops of Woolite, because it didn't air out in weeks whereas I think a light wash like that would probably do the job.

Alternative solution!

Anyway, I'm just not that brave. I feel like that's how you end up being a classic 5* cautionary tale, with a jacket that was perfect but then you went just a little too far with it and now it's orange. I turned it inside out for a couple of days, applied some Febreze to the lining today, left it in the rain for a bit afterwards, and it now smells infinitely better. Still a mild smell on the outside of the jacket, but that's honestly fine, it'll go away completely eventually. It was just trapped in the cotton lining; Febreze plus rain has done the job. Totally wearable now.

Yeah that makes sense, cheers for the tip re patterns and that.

A little chrome in Ireland definitely won't hurt at all! Nothing against combination tanning or anything, was just wondering as I didn't see it written anywhere. Aero's goat is full veg and seems to be everything proof, guess i wondered if its a similar deal.

Anyway, the jacket looks great on you man! Congrats, what a successful result! You can sew up that hole pretty easily but im sure you know that. Shame that their QC is so lax.

I had an 80s biker jacket that beefed and it didn't go away. Machine washing a leather jacket seems mental haha but whado i know.

Enjoy it dude! Your dogs are gonna get shredded from the extra long walks they'll be getting

I doubt there's a huge difference in any given rain shower, but I wanted this to be a beater/travel jacket so for me it was a practical positive. I doubt you'd get the kind of high-quality hides that justify veg tanning from 5* anyway, so it's a different ballgame from Aero. That's why I'd like to get a HBD from them.

And yeah, I've emailed asking for some of my tip back, and the knit is an easy repair job. Will hopefully be able to get some decent photos up now that it's no longer an airborne toxic event.

 

[mysternee]

For 300 and a bit pages, I was genuinely impressed with the positivity and spirit of the people on this forum. There would be fairly constructive criticism, but never personal attacks (at least not that weren't deleted by the moderators). I get that a few people have burned out on Fivestar. Sorry you feel that way, but it's understandable. Different strokes. That initial impression made the return to "general internet" character over the last several pages extremely disappointing. There's PLENTY of information in the last 392 pages to scare anyone away that's going to be scared (there's plenty more to inspire as well). If you don't want to eat the Cheerios, that's fine; you don't need to piss in everyone else's bowl. There's plenty else to keep you occupied out there. Move on.

The CHL leather experiments were experiments. Experiments fail; that's why they're experiments. They felt around for the edges of the box, and found them. The criticisms were of the leather though, not the pattern. Too thick is too thick. Too stiff is too stiff. I've done a fair amount of leather work (non-garment, to be fair), and I know how thick leathers behave and go together. I understand exactly why they were not happy with those results. Maybe Fivestar could have stepped in and said the leather shouldn't be used in jackets, or modified patterns to work better with the thicker leather, but the Fivestar Machine doesn't do that.

As for the measurements, go back and look like I did. I think there were maybe two that fell under the measurement category. One was too aggressive with a collar, and I forget the specifics of the other. The construction issue had someone (not going to name names, I doubt they're paying much attention to this thread any more) expecting the belt to be more substantial, and then I think retracted the criticism when it was pointed out that that's just how half belts are.

Responding to your last paragraph responding to my last paragraph, I didn't have you or anyone else in mind there. Simply laying out my own mentality, and why I'm likely to be happy with the end result.

I just bought a 5* jacket, and as long as they make right the sole QC issue, I'll consider it to have been a great experience. However, I don't think it would have been as good an experience without having seen what could go wrong, and then being very wisely advised by @Aloysius to go with a reproduction pattern, thus skirting the infamous 5* pattern issues. That also got me reading about different patterns here and on the VLJ forum, which resulted in me going with a different reproduction pattern that better suited my proportions.

I got a great result, but that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't listened to the input from the fine folks here. The benefit of going with a military reproduction is obvious when you think about it: it's a 1:1 copy of something that was designed by professionals, for use in circumstances where the whole point was practicality and comfort. And the design was tested in the field, worked well, and we now have 70+ years of experience and testimony that it's a comfy design. You don't get that when someone photographs their old jacket and asks 5* to copy it, or sends in what they think will be their ideal dimensions.

The point being: these lads have all been there and done that. A few of them have bought multiple jackets, convinced that with just a few more tweaks, they'd have the perfect jacket. But at the end of the day, they spent more time and money to get something that was worse than what they'd get for less money and less time from one of the popular brands on here like Aero, SB, Vanson, Schott, et al, and that's before talking about used jackets. They're just trying to stop anyone else making the same mistake. There probably is a bit of a tendency towards negativity, which is understandable after the emotional rollercoaster of seeking the grail and coming up short (sometimes literally). I know there's absolutely no mall jacket I could buy for the cost of my 5* that would be anywhere near as good, even including shipping costs and excluding the fact that I got a perfect fit. If you have weird proportions, they're hard to beat.

Having said that—and with the absolute best will in the world, no criticism intended, and from someone who has just bought a jacket from 5* and loves it—you're coming across a little defensive. You've got this kind of project/scheme idea going, and I get it, it's super exciting to get to play with it and maybe even get a bit gambler's excitement. I don't think anyone's trying to rain on your parade, they're just saying that your odds of being satisfied are much higher if you play it safe. If you get a copy of a design that you know is good, then all you have to worry about are minor QC issues like mine, getting the sizing wrong, 5* using the tape measure dubiously to pretend it's the size you asked for, 5* making it out of the wrong leather... you get the point. That's plenty to be worrying about without running experiments on yourself and your wallet!

But anyway have fun! It is just a jacket after all

 

[spectre6000]

The CHL was a leather made by this thread. And it was probably a bad investment but still a investment.

As a business owner, I saw this more from Shawn's perspective maybe. The buyers took a risk, but so did the business owner in straying from what's tried and true on the contract side.

The thing about messing up measurements comes from rushing or misinterpreted body shapes .

They try to match the most important measurement to a existing size and pattern and then modify accordingly.
My all weather halfbelt has a 43-44 shoulder and my cossack has a 47-47 shoulder even though I specified the same measurement.
They took a existing pattern and modified it .
The stock had straight shoulders and after complaining about the first version I wanted round ones .They probably had a fixed formula for round shoulders like 3cm upward from point XYZ.

So they moved that point upward.
The stock pattern had a size XYZ neck opening which moved 3cm upward.
So now they connected the dots and didn't think about it too much .
Then they add the custom sleeve opening and after going back to a fixed formula they again connected the dots .
It is really easy to overlook certain areas if you work on a tight schedule or in a certain speed.
A premade properly scaled pattern is way easier.
They don't start from scratch probably.They match and modify .
If size M has a 24cm armholes and size XL has the desired 26cm armholes and your base pattern is size M then they take the XL sleeve and modify from there. If the XL sleeve is matching the desired bicep shape then they take that shape and size .If the cuff you want matches size M relatively well then they take that and add it to the XL sleeve .

It is mix and match to make it even possible.
However this can lead to problems.

Slimming XYZ down changes things from curved to straight for example.

This is how everyone does it, not just Fivestar. I wouldn't expect anything less.

I just bought a 5* jacket, and as long as they make right the sole QC issue, I'll consider it to have been a great experience. However, I don't think it would have been as good an experience without having seen what could go wrong, and then being very wisely advised by @Aloysius to go with a reproduction pattern, thus skirting the infamous 5* pattern issues. That also got me reading about different patterns here and on the VLJ forum, which resulted in me going with a different reproduction pattern that better suited my proportions.

I got a great result, but that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't listened to the input from the fine folks here. The benefit of going with a military reproduction is obvious when you think about it: it's a 1:1 copy of something that was designed by professionals, for use in circumstances where the whole point was practicality and comfort. And the design was tested in the field, worked well, and we now have 70+ years of experience and testimony that it's a comfy design. You don't get that when someone photographs their old jacket and asks 5* to copy it, or sends in what they think will be their ideal dimensions.

The point being: these lads have all been there and done that. A few of them have bought multiple jackets, convinced that with just a few more tweaks, they'd have the perfect jacket. But at the end of the day, they spent more time and money to get something that was worse than what they'd get for less money and less time from one of the popular brands on here like Aero, SB, Vanson, Schott, et al, and that's before talking about used jackets. They're just trying to stop anyone else making the same mistake. There probably is a bit of a tendency towards negativity, which is understandable after the emotional rollercoaster of seeking the grail and coming up short (sometimes literally). I know there's absolutely no mall jacket I could buy for the cost of my 5* that would be anywhere near as good, even including shipping costs and excluding the fact that I got a perfect fit. If you have weird proportions, they're hard to beat.

Having said that—and with the absolute best will in the world, no criticism intended, and from someone who has just bought a jacket from 5* and loves it—you're coming across a little defensive. You've got this kind of project/scheme idea going, and I get it, it's super exciting to get to play with it and maybe even get a bit gambler's excitement. I don't think anyone's trying to rain on your parade, they're just saying that your odds of being satisfied are much higher if you play it safe. If you get a copy of a design that you know is good, then all you have to worry about are minor QC issues like mine, getting the sizing wrong, 5* using the tape measure dubiously to pretend it's the size you asked for, 5* making it out of the wrong leather... you get the point. That's plenty to be worrying about without running experiments on yourself and your wallet!

But anyway have fun! It is just a jacket after all

Fair point. After 300 some odd pages of positivity and congeniality, it's very disappointing to drop in under a barrage of sour grapes. I tend to ignore criticisms of my crazy ideas, but the horse beating memes only serve to shut down otherwise productive conversation with undue negativity. I'm ready to move on and get back to regular programming.

Doing exactly that and moving on, I took a field trip today and managed to find some Schotts and others to take detailed measurements and fit notes of. Bottom line, I can't buy off the rack. I already knew this, but it's nice to get confirmation within this particular niche. My shoulders are a Large, and the rest of me is at best a medium or even small. In one case (a Schott cafe racer), even XL shoulders were restrictive (which falls under the "ignore tag size and pay attention to actual measurements" wisdom since another Schott medium was the best fit of the day). Anything that fits my torso will still be a bit long in the sleeves, and I won't be able to lift my arms past 45°. Gussets help, but I have to be careful there too with width, or they'll stick out at rest. From here, all I can think to do is make a spreadsheet to see how things compare between measurements and fit notes in an organized manner...

 

[El Marro]

This is how everyone does it, not just Fivestar. I wouldn't expect anything less.

Not true. I have been told by two different makers (Aero and Lost Worlds) that they could not make a shoulder width modification I requested because it would not Work with the pattern. That is a benefit of working with people who understand and care about jacket construction, and making something that meets their standards.

 

[spectre6000]

What was the modification, and to what? Shoulders are my primary problem area.

 

[El Marro]

What was the modification, and to what? Shoulders are my primary problem area.

The first was an Aero A-2. I knew that a stock size 46 fit me pretty well everywhere except the shoulders. I wanted them to add an inch and a half of width and they told me they could not do it because it would throw off other details in the pattern. The second jacket was a Lost World CHP, pretty much the same story.
I passed on ordering the Aero because I knew I couldn’t wear it the way it came. I did order the LW and fortunately it fits, although a little more room up top would have been nice.

 

[spectre6000]

Sounds like we have a similar problem on that front. If you're here with 3,405 posts, you've clearly found your way around the problem. Any tips?

 

[Aloysius]

I tend to ignore criticisms of my crazy ideas, but the horse beating memes only serve to shut down otherwise productive conversation with undue negativity. I'm ready to move on and get back to regular programming.

The horse beating meme was because I had that exact exchange "no you won't get usable 'reference measurements' from a dodgy pattern" "yes I will stop gatekeeping" a few months ago with someone, and I was right that time too. (He did get quite a beautiful hide though on his jacket.)

Doing exactly that and moving on, I took a field trip today and managed to find some Schotts and others to take detailed measurements and fit notes of.

Look, you're not the only one on this server who has this issue, but measurements are–beyond a certain point–meaningless. Yes, a jacket that's smaller than your body won't fit, but there might be two jackets with seemingly identical measurements where one fits and the other doesn't, or even it's the smaller measuring jacket that fits!

Bottom line, I can't buy off the rack. I already knew this, but it's nice to get confirmation within this particular niche. My shoulders are a Large, and the rest of me is at best a medium or even small.

So… you just have a large drop. That's not an ultra rare sizing situation. This is fairly common and there are plenty of off-the-rack models with big drops.

 

[El Marro]

Sounds like we have a similar problem on that front. If you're here with 3,405 posts, you've clearly found your way around the problem. Any tips?

I have it a bit easier than you because I am 6’1“ so I am usually OK with the length of most stock jackets Provided the shoulders are wide enough. If I were in your shoes I would talk to Thurston Brothers and get the ball rolling on a fit jacket. Once you find something that works for your shoulders, you can make modifications to the taper, as well as the sleeve and back length to suit your frame.
This is obviously a much pricier way to go about it than starting with Five Star, but I also think you are more likely to get good results, and end up with something you can wear for years and years to come.

 

[spectre6000]

...measurements are–beyond a certain point–meaningless. Yes, a jacket that's smaller than your body won't fit, but there might be two jackets with seemingly identical measurements where one fits and the other doesn't, or even it's the smaller measuring jacket that fits!

100% agreement, and no confusion on my part. Of the (however many) jackets I got measurements and fit notes from today, this relationship was expected, and did not disappoint. Same numbers, different outcome. Since I don't have any jackets to compare to, and no half belts anywhere to be found, I've got to start somewhere. Getting some ballpark figures will give me an idea for where to start on a fit/fitting/fitment jacket that will get me a lot closer from the get-go. Adjusting on the scale of an inch here or there will be much easier than trying to guess over the range of several inches.

 

[Aloysius]

100% agreement, and no confusion on my part. Of the (however many) jackets I got measurements and fit notes from today, this relationship was expected, and did not disappoint. Same numbers, different outcome. Since I don't have any jackets to compare to, and no half belts anywhere to be found, I've got to start somewhere. Getting some ballpark figures will give me an idea for where to start on a fit/fitting/fitment jacket that will get me a lot closer from the get-go. Adjusting on the scale of an inch here or there will be much easier than trying to guess over the range of several inches.

Do you know the model numbers of the specific Schott jackets you tried?

Most of us are familiar with how the 613/618/118 pattern fits, for example. That can be a reference point.

 

[spectre6000]

Do you know the model numbers of the specific Schott jackets you tried?

Most of us are familiar with how the 613/618/118 pattern fits, for example. That can be a reference point.

654VN in XL and 246 in M. The 246 was technically 246AE (a cross branded version with Allen Edmonds that doesn't show up on their site, and doesn't appear to differ at all from the stock Schott 246). I have some photos as well, if it would be any help. They're not great, but they're not nothing.

 

[Aloysius]

654VN in XL and 246 in M. I have some photos as well, if it would be any help. They're not great, but they're not nothing.

Oh no wonder the sizing was so weird. Both of these jackets were part of attempts to capture part of the fashion market.

Do you know if the shop carries any other models?

 

[spectre6000]

Oh no wonder the sizing was so weird. Both of these jackets were part of attempts to capture part of the fashion market.

Do you know if the shop carries any other models?

Not a surprise. It was at a mall (Nieman Marcus and Allen Edmonds respectively). The Schott dealers in the Denver area either don't carry inventory, or were closed on Sunday. There was another cafe racer at the one that had the 246, but it was too small to justify the effort.

 

[58panheadfan]

give us the deets on that one. How much was it? which model from the site? which leather? Looks great!

Apparently FivestarLeather has added “my” idea of the Trojan in their standard program.

 

[KBlake]

I ordered a double rider using Mysteryo’s 1930’s original jacket pattern in the 2mm CHL from 5*. These sleeves have a ton of curve and taper to them. The vintage pattern and the 6 pages of pics/ instructions I sent Fargham made the difference. The pattern has a lot of curvature, definitely not the tube sleeves I received on my first 5* jacket. In the last pics you can see how much it curves near the elbow. Jacket just shipped, will review once it arrives.

I went with the CHL steer, not a big fan of the premium goat. I soaked my last jacket in hot bath water for 20 minutes and tossed it in the dryer to get rid of plastic feel. Still don't care for the pebble finish but it feels way better and no longer squeeky.

Thank's Mysteryo for sending in your original jacket to create the pattern.

Any update on this?

 

[GraceNote13]

Any update on this?

It arrived, unfortunately I’m away traveling for a few days. Will provide feed back and pic before the weekend.