Field Leathers

[Berto]

Thanks Marc.

This week I will receive several samples from Greg.

I have to compare Black Full aniline, Black pygmented and Dar Brown pygmented. Let's see what is my final choice.

 

[Marc mndt]

Would the teacore shinki be full aniline or pigment dyed?
I still have difficulty to grasp the differences.
It seemed that the tea core effect would need vegtan leather (vs. chrome tanned) and aniline dyed (even though that means the leather is dyed through, how can some different colour come through then) vs. pigment (that is in many articles described as making the leather very uniform with a protective layer and would prevent colour change; but we can see in the picture above, that the grain in the pigment dyed is showing and why should a pigment not wear off over time?
I find it very confusing. It must be different quality levels.

Teacore is brown vegetable tanned leather with a black topcoat sprayed onto it (pigment dyed).

 

[Carlos840]

Teacore is brown vegetable tanned leather with a black topcoat sprayed onto it (pigment dyed).

Yes and no, there can be more steps, and a leather doesn't have to be veg tanned to be teacore.

Compare these two leathers, they are both teacore to the extent that they are not black all the way through and will show contrast wear:

The one on the left is fully anilin drum dyed grey, it was then anilin drum dyed black briefly which is the reason why the underside is black, but the black dye didn't have the time to penetrate all the way to the core.
The final step is applying a pigment top coat on the top.

The one on the right was anilin drum dyed brown, then a black pigment top coat is applied to the top.

As i said the other day, a dye will colour the fibers of the leather itself, a pigment is a coloured paint layer that sits on the surface of the leather.

 

[Blackadder]

Teacore is a translation from 茶芯 a Japanese term and it has to be a brown core if following the usage by Japanese who invented the term. It actually focuses on the colour of the core rather than whether it is dyed thru. Any other core is from that standpoint not teacore (as seen from the Japanese words on the photo 茶芯 vs 芯染 ). There is however the true teacore and the artificial teacore. The true teacore is from the original colour after tanning so a purely chrome tanned leather being a blueish grey even if dyed brown then black is not a true teacore. Certain combination tanned leather is brown so it is still true teacore.
茶 means tea but in this context it is a colour because it is also used to denote brown colour in Japanese.
茶色
light brown
https://www.linguee.com/japanese-english/translation/茶色.html
It is a chinese word adopted by Japanese so even though Japanese drinks green tea, it doesn't mean green.

 

[Carlos840]

Teacore is a translation from 茶芯 a Japanese term and it has to be a brown core if following the usage by Japanese who invented the term. It actually focuses on the colour of the core rather than whether it is dyed thru. Any other core is from that standpoint not teacore (as seen from the Japanese words on the photo 茶芯 vs 芯染 ). There is however the true teacore and the artificial teacore. The true teacore is from the original colour after tanning so a purely chrome tanned leather being a blueish grey even if dyed brown then black is not a true teacore. Certain combination tanned leather is brown so it is still true teacore.

So what do we call a leather like what FW uses, if it is not a "real" teacore?
A constrasting wear leather? A fade to grey/ fade to brown?
It seems like unnecessary complication.

 

[Blackadder]

So what do we call a leather like what FW uses, if it is not a "real" teacore?
A constrasting wear leather? A fade to grey/ fade to brown?
It seems like unnecessary complication.

The term came before FW, RM etc did all those artificial colouring, dyeing to mimic vintage leather and to speed up the fading.
It has been used to denote the colour core of vintage leather. e.g. to differentiate the old black Red Wing PT83 which has a brown core (the original colour after tanning most likely veg tanned) from the same PT83 which has a grey core (obviously chrome tanned). So you can see it is colour specific.
https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/x715700695
https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/w437887250
Even if artificial, it may still be described as teacore if it is brown but if fades grey then it is just not teacore, it can be grey core, black core blue core. In fact, one can use brown core which would be the free translation in stead of teacore the literal translation. There is nothing special about the term, it is just used to describe the colour of the core 芯.

 

[Blackadder]

So what do we call a leather like what FW uses, if it is not a "real" teacore?
A constrasting wear leather? A fade to grey/ fade to brown?
It seems like unnecessary complication.

You are very correct in pointing out that they artificially accentuate those contrasting wear by dying the leather in say brown then black. The photo posted describes not 茶芯 but 赤茶芯 a reddish brown core. 赤 means red in there. This is what some of those companies are going for in stead of the true teacore, a yellowish brown colour of raw tanned hide.

 

[Berto]

Guys,

¿which one do you like more: Full aniline or pigmented aniline?, why?

¿which one do you think is more sleek: Full aniline or pigmented aniline?

Thanks in advance

 

[indigoeagle]

Thank you for the input. Very interesting.
So Chashin/teacore was a term coined by the Japanese to describe the leather aging for example foun in vintage Red Wing Engineer Boots and to differentiate them from newer versions.
With the Engingeers the inside would be brown, so it wasn't dyed all the way, so no full-aniline.
Full-aniline would show black on the inside.
And it would be veg-tan, otherwise it wouldn't be brown. If it had been chrome tanned, but not dyed all the way through, the inside would show grey leather.
Blackadder, how then was the black colour applied to the leather of the vintage RedWings, a pigment dye process?

 

[MrProper]

To understand better ...
my blackened brown Vincenza, where the brown always shimmers a little under the black, teacore?

Or what about this CXFQHH? The black comes off, the brown comes out. teacore?

 

[Blackadder]

Thank you for the input. Very interesting.
So Chashin/teacore was a term coined by the Japanese to describe the leather aging for example foun in vintage Red Wing Engineer Boots and to differentiate them from newer versions.
With the Engingeers the inside would be brown, so it wasn't dyed all the way, so no full-aniline.
Full-aniline would show black on the inside.
And it would be veg-tan, otherwise it wouldn't be brown. If it had been chrome tanned, but not dyed all the way through, the inside would show grey leather.
Blackadder, how then was the black colour applied to the leather of the vintage RedWings, a pigment dye process?

The term came to be known probably owing to the Japanese obsession about fading and aging of vintage clothing be it leather, jeans even nylon jackets. They also have a term "日焼" for the fading of nylon flight jackets due to extensive exposure to sunlight.
I am not an expert on leather but I doubt Red Wing would be aniline or even semi-aniline because of the cost. By cost I mean mostly the cost of the leather because aniline or semi aniline is usually done on leather which has close to zero imperfections. Full aniline if done in the usual way would dye through the tanned leather and would have no core colour to speak of therefore to achieve teacore, it would likely be artificially done by dyeing the leather twice with different colour, i.e. aniline dyed brown first then a top coat of another colour is applied.

 

[Seb Lucas]

The term came to be known probably owing to the Japanese obsession about fading and aging of vintage clothing be it leather, jeans even nylon jackets. They also have a term for the fading of nylon flight jackets owing to exposure to sunlight- 日焼
I am not an expert on leather but I doubt Red Wing would be aniline or even semi-aniline because of the cost. Full aniline if done in the usual way would dye through the tanned leather and would have no core colour to speak of therefore to achieve teacore, it would likely be artificially done by dyeing the leather twice with different colour, i.e. aniline dyed brown first then a top coat of another colour is applied.

Interesting. What is it about fading and wear that they appreciate so much and why?

 

[Blackadder]

Interesting. What is it about fading and wear that they appreciate so much and why?

That I think is a question for them to answer. One thing I have heard but not certain is that the fading is sort of a diary, a record of the life of the item as well as the wearer.
Many here have taken photos of the wear on their leather jackets.

 

[dannyk]

Interesting. What is it about fading and wear that they appreciate so much and why?

Obviously no expert. But two things I know. Things that fade and show wear are a sign of craftsmanship aka made well, longevity. Jeans or jackets don’t really fade or change if they are cheap. They eventually just break, or get replaced. Fades and patina show that it’s old and been around. Second thing I can think of, is that after WW2 with heavy American military presence on the island they inherited a lot of American hand me downs. Old jeans and jackets. New styles they hadn’t seen before. Americans outgrew them, bought new ones, styles changed and Japan took them all. So there was a generation or two, who grew up steeped in Americana of the 40s-60s. We also brought our movies and music with us that fed into this. Back then made in America really was a sign of quality and longevity. So the huge culture/society aspect of, then also the quality aspect. But what’s funny now is that a lot of the stuff being made which prematurely fades isn’t an exceptionally long lasting, well made product. Still well made for sure, some of the best, but some of the things being made teacore won’t even last a few months before they fade. I’ve seen some boots and jackets that are like 6 months old and look 30 years old. You’re losing the story the products tell, and losing the Mark of a product meant to last a lifetime. I think most teacore looks great and own a pair of teacore boots but the stuff that fades super quickly isn’t for me.

 

[Carlos840]

To understand better ...
my blackened brown Vincenza, where the brown always shimmers a little under the black, teacore?
View attachment 284688
Or what about this CXFQHH? The black comes off, the brown comes out. teacore?
View attachment 284687

To me they are teacore leather, i think "teacore" has evolved into a blanket term that designates a leather that wears through the top coat showing a contrasting hide other than the classic chromed blue hide.
It might not be correct to the purist but this is how i use it.

 

[Blackadder]

Obviously no expert. But two things I know. Things that fade and show wear a sign of craftsmanship aka made well, longevity. Jeans or jackets don’t really fade or change if they are cheap. They eventually just break, or get replaced. Fades and patina show that it’s old and been around. Second thing I can think of, is that after WW2 with heavy American military presence on the island they inherited a lot of American hand me downs. Old jeans and jackets. New styles they hadn’t seen before. Americans outgrew them, bought new ones, styles changed and Japan took them all. So there was a generation of two, who grew up steeped in Americana of the 40s-60s. We also brought our movies and music with us that fed into this. Back then made in America really was a sign of quality and longevity. So the huge culture/society aspect of, then also the quality aspect. But what’s funny now is that a lot of the stuff being made which prematurely fades isn’t an exceptionally long lasting, well made product. Still well made for sure, some of the best, but some of the things being made teacore won’t even last a few months before they fade. I’ve seen some boots and jackets that are like 6 months old and look 30 years old. You’re losing the story the products tell, and losing the Mark of a product meant to last a lifetime. I think most teacore looks great and own a pair of teacore boots but the stuff that she’s super quickly isn’t for me.

I think we have gone off topic but let me share my view which is
1) the society is richer so a particular piece of clothing does not get the wear and tear as it would have in the old days;
2) those Japanese companies do speed up the process but at least they let you do the wear and tear whilst many other brands pre-distressed their clothing. How many people you see around you still wear raw jeans these days? I don't see any raw jeans in regular Levi's store, all are washed and distressed models.

 

[Blackadder]

To me they are teacore leather, i think "teacore" has evolved into a blanket term that designates a leather that wears through the top coat showing a contrasting hide other than the classic chromed blue hide.
It might not be correct to the purist but this is how i use it.

I wouldn't say I am a purist. I guess you can give it a new definition or that you may say it has evolved here but at least the Japanese would not understand it because to them the word means a particular colour. People use a literal translation of the term and lost part of its meaning. For example this D black J-100 is listed as "黒芯" black core.
https://www.realmccoys.co.jp/catalog/products/detail.php?product_id=4085&pg=2

 

[indigoeagle]

That I think is a question for them to answer. One thing I have heard but not certain is that the fading is sort of a diary, a record of the life of the item as well as the wearer.
Many here have taken photos of the wear on their leather jackets.

I think, this is related to the Japanese' appreciation of wabisabi.
"In traditional Japanese aesthetics, wabi-sabi (侘寂) is a world view centered on the acceptance of transience and imperfection. The aesthetic is sometimes described as one of appreciating beauty that is "imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete" in nature."
It's a mix of high value placed on high quality of material, respect for high skill levels and well honed craftsmanship and a kind of Buddhist appreciation of the ephemeral beauty of the moment and the fact, that eventually nothing will last forever.

 

[dannyk]

I think we have gone off topic but let me share my view which is
1) the society is richer so a particular piece of clothing does not get the wear and tear as it would have in the old days;
2) those Japanese companies do speed up the process but at least they let you do the wear and tear whilst many other brands pre-distressed their clothing. How many people you see around you still wear raw jeans these days? I don't see any raw jeans in regular Levi's store, all are washed and distressed models.

I didn’t mean it was bad by any means. Just I don’t like pre-distressed or super fast fading. Some look good and look ok. Like Thedis wash he uses, love how that comes out. But in any case didn’t mean to sound like I don’t appreciate it, or think it shouldn’t exist. Just a personal preference thing. Not big on pre-distressed or the really really fast fades.

 

[indigoeagle]

I wouldn't say I am a purist. I guess you can give it a new definition or that you may say it has evolved here but at least the Japanese would not understand it because to them the word means a particular colour. People use a literal translation of the term and lost part of its meaning. For example this D black J-100 is listed as "黒芯" black core.
https://www.realmccoys.co.jp/catalog/products/detail.php?product_id=4085&pg=2

They write:
"カラ―「BLACK」は茶芯、「D.BLACK」は黒芯となります。"
So 'Black' is chashin/tea (brown) core and 'D. Black' is kokushin/black core, similar to the two black colours used by Freewheelers and alluded to by Carlos in his post above, which they call 'Black Jack' and 'Rude Black' resp..

In the pic posted by Carlos it says, that FWs normally use 'Rude Black' which has a grey black core for the LaBrea, but at that time they used the 'Black Jack' with the red brown (russet?) core, that they had used for the Speedmaster and the Dustbowl jackets before.

I just checked my JoeMcCoy car coat on RMC's site.
https://www.realmccoys.co.jp/catalog/products/detail.php?product_id=4495&pg=

There it states: "タンニン鞣しピグメント仕上げ" which translates as "Tannin tanned pigment finish".
When I bought the coat, I asked the guy from RMCs, if the black would over time reveal brown and he affirmed that.
Tannin tanned is probaly vegtan.
So the recreation of the vintage tea core seems to be mostly vegtan leather with pigment dye, brown leather underneath and then black on top, but not an impenetrable layer, but rather one which will wear off with time.