Fear of the feminine

[Amy Jeanne]

When I was a pre-teen and teen I was into punk and therefore had more of masculine look. For a while I even denied I was female and wanted very badly to be male!!

When I was about 18 I began to experiment with my hair and makeup, but it didn't last long. I hated it and had no time for such things!

I was just a "plain jane" between the years of 18 and 22. No makeup, long straight hair parted in the middle, jeans and band t-shirts.

It wasn't until late '98 when I discovered vintage that I began to reclaim my femininity!! In '99 I got into Kevyn Aucoin and he basically taught me how to put on makeup, along with just studying 1930s actresses. My hair got cut into a short bob and began to give me a "look."

Skirts and dresses are a staple in my wardrobe. If it wasn't so cold here I'd wear them all the time. Every single day I do my hair and makeup - even if I'm not going anywhere. My nails are always painted and groomed. I shower twice a day and do the obligatory primping after each!

Don't get me wrong, though! I'm not "high maintenance" in the slightest! I go out in jeans and plain tops all the time. It only takes me 45 minutes total to get ready in the morning. Nails can easily be done in 10 minutes wile watching TV.

I enjoy all the little feminine things I've been doing over the past 9 years. It feels good to take it back.

 

[Paisley]

Embracing your gender gives you some "it" factor. The unisex look says to me, "bottom of the totem pole."

 

[Lady Day]

When you watch a movie today and you see a man in a situation where he's driving the car and the kid in the back is yelling, he's on the phone and the kid next to hom is complaining... it's a dilemna in the script.

You have the same situation for a woman in a script and rather than that being the plot to the story, it's just background.

Anyway...

So.......

Im not sure I get your point. Should she be in a ball gown while shes doing this? Or is there lead in to her character that does indeed just make this act background as we travel to another aspect of her as a character?


LD

 

[Matt Deckard]

I tend to post thoughts sometimes... makes sense to some and none to others. It was just an observation.

 

[Mojito]

I think we have gone through phases when women have tried to adopt and even exagerate what are considered masculine modes of dress and behaviour. In the 1920s this went to the lengths - in some bohemian circles - of dressing in only marginally modified male suits, coupled with an Eton crop, which took androgony to new heights. Certain styles were described in fashion mags as 'mannish'. In the 1980s, as women endeavoured to break through the glass ceiling, it was believed a high-powered business look was a matter of huge exaggerated shoulder pads. Some women felt they had to carry a bigger briefcase to prove they could mix it up with the boys.

It can be hard to identify what is 'masculine' and 'feminine'. I enjoy running and physical activity, and when I do so I wear very functional clothing. To some, the idea that I can work up a heavy sweat and do weight training is considered 'masculine'. Conversely, there are men who would never walk into a yoga or pilates class as they're not considered 'masculine' enough (others, however, realise how disciplined and valuable these classes are).

I'm not too rigid in how I define human characteristics - I don't strongly feel the need to identify my dress and behaviour as either masculine or feminine. I am a woman, and I am proud to be one. I'm not a biological determinist, but I accept and embrace difference. Physically, I am simply never going to have, say, the same upper body strength as a man. Nor will I ever run as fast. However, I do have certain other strengths - endurance, for example (women come close to closing the performance gap in ultramarathons, indicative of a mental toughness). There is scientific evidence that men and women are biologically set up to think differently, but that should never straightjacket us into rigid roles. I know men who are excellent communicators, and women who do have a good grasp of spatial reasoning. Knowing that there are general differences, however, can help us explore our strengths and how well we complement each other.

I wear what I enjoy and feel comfortable in - and yes, that involves a lot of what would be called very 'feminine' attire. I like my pretty frocks! I am not afraid to debate assertively and have a voice, but at the same time I don't feel the need out-do the boys (or girls!) through being more aggressive or louder. I can competantly handle my own scuba gear - I have the physical strength to carry tanks, regs, weightbelts and other equipment out the length of a long wharf, stow them on a boat and don them unassisted. I like that independence. However, if a male were to offer assistance, I wouldn't bite his head off out of an assumption that he thought I was 'weak' or that he thought I was less than competant. I would gratefully accept any help I need - and will reciprocate if I can offer assistance to someone else, male or female. If someone opens a door for me, or pulls out a chair, I thank them for what is a thoughtful gesture aimed at assisting me, rather than assume that they want to keep me trapped in a particular role. I don't think any man who has ever extended those courtesies has ever done so in order to "keep me in my place".

 

[HadleyH]

Embracing your gender gives you some "it" factor. The unisex look says to me, "bottom of the totem pole."

I do understand what you are saying Paisley, but lets not forget that every age has a bit of this thing going on. In the Jazz Age for example, it was the flapper with her waist drop tubular dress, short bobbed hair and flattened figure,that was the top of the fashion, with all ideas of feminity turned upside down. [huh] ( And hey! they still managed to look glamorous).
So really, there is nothing new under the sun. The more things change the more they remain the same.

 

[vonwotan]

Speaking of the Jazz Age. Here is a favourite image - one that Sarah and I try to emulate during our club's period events - the style and admittedly a need for more skill on the dance floor.

Not to say that the real spice, our debates and differences, is absent. We do however enjoy being man and woman.

I do understand what you are saying Paisley, but lets not forget that every age has a bit of this thing going on. In the Jazz Age for example, it was the flapper with her waist drop tubular dress, short bobbed hair and flattened figure,that was the top of the fashion, with all ideas of feminity turned upside down. [huh] ( And hey! they still managed to look glamorous).
So really, there is nothing new under the sun. The more things change the more they remain the same.

 

[HadleyH]

Oh yes!! That's Vernon and Irene Castle in a dancing pose which could have been the start of any number of dances of 1915.
Lovely image vonwotan!

 

[vonwotan]

I don't know when I first saw this image but I was fairly young. I was quite excited when I found a digitized copy. Growing up we listened to a lot of Scott Joplin and some of the artists who also performed jazz like Jelly Roll Morton.

Oh yes!! That's Vernon and Irene Castle in a dancing pose which could have been the start of any number of dances of 1915.
Lovely image vonwotan!

 

[CanadaDoll]

Well, I personally find being feminine in manner and dress fun(I love dressing up for special occasions and such), and empowering, (I've been treated with more respect by profs and customers at the gallery), and some people don't quite know how to react to me; which when I feel mishceivious is quite entertaining, but everyone has their own opinions and experiences to draw from[huh]



But how's this for "Fear of the Feminine" in a different sense, we all know that a high heel puts seven times your body weight in pressure onto the ball of your foot right?
Now just imagine ladies, you're wearing your cutest pair of stilletto heels, and some idiot decides to give ya a hard time, what if you were to shift that weight and pressure onto something the diameter of a pencil, and down onto the offenders foot? I've heard about what happens, she escaped unscathed, he did not, but this was also quite the serious problem she was having! (For the record I don't advocate violence)
A whole new reason to Fear the Feminine!lol

 

[Martina]

I started reading this thread and I had to take a break because it made me so angry!

Here we are, by 'we' I mean the ladies, talking about how women don't appreciate other women, how they put each other down, how they don't resepect each other and how men don't respect women when they are dressed a certain way or act a certain way... and then the posts go on to say things like " jogging pants look speaks of no self respect or at least very little" and "To look sloppy, you just put on whatever you find clean in your dresser, put your hair in a ponytail and..whala! there you go" WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MUTUAL RESPECT???? Just because you're only saying it in the 'lounge' that makes it better? I can pretty much guarantee you that if you're looking at a woman and thinking thoughts like that, she's reading it in your face... and if you're thinking thoughts like that, how feminine and nurturing does that make you? -no disrespect of offense to any one of you but I really wanted to point that out.

I realize that I am probably twice the age of most of the women in here and as women go, I'm very tomboyish at times and extremely outgoing. However, I'd put my money where my mouth is every time, that I can be just as feminine as any of you out there... and by the way, I compliment other women -complete strangers, regularly. How sad that we don't do that more often!

Here's my thought... it all comes down to values... mens & womens!!!

Years ago, women mainly looked after the house and children and making themselves beautiful for their man was a high priority (even until the 1950s most of the women's magazines articles & adds I have seen tout such things). Women got to plan dinner parties, where people actually dressed up to come over! (I suggested this to a couple we know and they loved the dinner party idea but said and I quote "I don't know about the dressing up thing ) Back 'in the day', as a woman, you knew what was expected of you.

The man made the money and then did the 'man things' when he was done work. Boys in the house did the 'young man's' things, like taking out the trash, lifting heavy baskets, carrying groceries, etc.
Of course there were excpetions to this, as there always are, but I am speaking on the whole.

I think sometime after the war, when women had been doing the mens' jobs, things got a little confused and money came in to play, and women took on and KEPT many of the roles that men had previously had. I think this led, in turn, to men not appreciating women in the same way that they used to and also, I don't think men quite knew how they were expected to treat women. Add to that women's lib and it all becomes quite a mess. I go back to my top statement about how women treat women...... How do you expect men to know how to treat us, when we don't even treat each other kindly? And as for men..... you're not off the hook either! How do you expect women to act and dress in a feminine manner, when we're trying to do at half the things that you used to do? Would you even consider going through your day, doing all the things that you do, in a pair of heels and maybe some mascara that could run down your face if you perspired? I think not...

Isn't it funny that most of us SAY that we were born at the wrong time or that we would like things to be like they used to but how many of us are actually contributing to the things we claim to dislike? How many of you married men actually take your wife out on dates and tell her how great she looks etc, on a REGULAR bases? I think that men actually used to be proud of a 'good' woman; my grandfather would boast of how well my grandmother took care of the house, how wonderfully she cooked and how well mannered she brought up their children.... he genuinly was PROUD of who she was and the things she did. She, in turn, took pride not only in the house and family but in herself for being able to accomplish all that she did. You show me a man that acts like my grandfather did and I'd be willing to bet 1000:1 that he has a wife like my grandmother!

I know that most of the men in here don't fall into the stereotypical behavior that I'm talking about.... but that is definitely not the norm. I wish it were!!

You want me to act and dress femininely? Sure, right after I'm done taking out the trash, starting supper, coaching the little league baseball team, moving the boxes out of the attic, and trying to work on my home business, so that I can help earn money to pay the bills.

Sheesh, for get angry, now I'm just depressed

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Martina, your points are apt ... and very appreciated.


Those attitudes that you mentioned in the first paragraph have driven away several very valuable female members of the Fedora Lounge. I won't name names, but let's just say that the vacuum left by their departure has not been filled.

.

 

[Miss Neecerie]

I started reading this thread and I had to take a break because it made me so angry!

Here we are, by 'we' I mean the ladies, talking about how women don't appreciate other women, how they put each other down, how they don't resepect each other and how men don't respect women when they are dressed a certain way or act a certain way... and then the posts go on to say things like " jogging pants look speaks of no self respect or at least very little" and "To look sloppy, you just put on whatever you find clean in your dresser, put your hair in a ponytail and..whala! there you go" WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MUTUAL RESPECT???? Just because you're only saying it in the 'lounge' that makes it better? I can pretty much guarantee you that if you're looking at a woman and thinking thoughts like that, she's reading it in your face... and if you're thinking thoughts like that, how feminine and nurturing does that make you? -no disrespect of offense to any one of you but I really wanted to point that out.

I realize that I am probably twice the age of most of the women in here and as women go, I'm very tomboyish at times and extremely outgoing. However, I'd put my money where my mouth is every time, that I can be just as feminine as any of you out there... and by the way, I compliment other women -complete strangers, regularly. How sad that we don't do that more often!


You want me to act and dress femininely? Sure, right after I'm done taking out the trash, starting supper, coaching the little league baseball team, moving the boxes out of the attic, and trying to work on my home business, so that I can help earn money to pay the bills.

Sheesh, for get angry, now I'm just depressed

Indeed...many times, it becomes a 'how vintage and feminine' contest of sorts...when it really should be left to each person as to how they live their everyday life.

We all sit here at a computer, and its very easy indeed to end up with an attitude about how people -should- be...all while we sit in our lounging pj's (mine are ratty and flannel) but talk about how glam things were then.

I think any one of us can be feminine when we want to. However, like you say, many of us are busy doing other things that need doing. Personally, I am just -not- going clean my house in a dress, its just not -me-. For those that it is -them- fine....

Its very much a 'to each their own' sort of issue.

This is an 'interest' message board. Any and all who have 'interest' in the Golden Era should be welcome here, no matter their attire, feminine or not...or vintage or not. No one should judge anyone else, whether a lounge member or not about their attire, not even to complain that the 'heathens out there are wearing flip flops' isn't it scandalous!

Things would be a heck of a lot more positive if we worried about ourselves instead of what others wear/do/think.

 

[RaasAlHayya]

Martina and Denise: hear, hear! :eusa_clap

--Leslie

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Things would be a heck of a lot more positive if we worried about ourselves instead of what others wear/do/think.

It's true. The philosophy is simple but effective: "I take pains to lead a 'golden era' lifestyle, but I don't expect you or anyone else to." End of story.

.

 

[Martina]

It's true. The philosophy is simple but effective: "I take pains to lead a 'golden era' lifestyle, but I don't expect you or anyone else to." End of story.

.

Eek, now you sound offended...

I got an email from another member because she thought that her remarks had hurt my feelings; I was deeply touched that she would go to the trouble to make sure that I was OK with her remarks.

I know my post sounded a bit cynical -I'm kind of at a difficult point in my life and feeling VERY unappreciated right now -so for that I truely appologize. I didn't mean to sound like I was lashing out at anyone in particular. I think the people in this forum are absolutely wonderful. Otherwise, I wouldn't stop in and hang around so much!

The point, for me at least, was that I have to do so many things that years ago were considered 'man' things, that it's just not feasable for me to be femininely dressed all the time.... and for that matter, most of the time. I wish it were, as I LOVE to dress up

And may I say one more thing..... what a wonderful place this is, that we can have an open discussion with so many differing opinions and are free to express them all. Hats off to the Fedora Lounge for that!

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Eek, now you sound offended...

Quite the opposite. I agree with your comments!

.

 

[Mojito]

We all sit here at a computer, and its very easy indeed to end up with an attitude about how people -should- be...all while we sit in our lounging pj's (mine are ratty and flannel) but talk about how glam things were then.

[snip]

Things would be a heck of a lot more positive if we worried about ourselves instead of what others wear/do/think.

Absolutely, Miss Neecerie. Often I've sat there in the PJ bottoms and a loose T, reading through the posts, developing wonderful ideals about how I'd like to look and admiring the style of others on the board. I don't think it's an either/or proposition - we don't have to have perfect hair and makeup every day of the week (although some of us come pretty close, and my hat's off to those who manage it).

And I wholeheartedly agree with you and with Martina that we should watch the tendency to being judgemental. While we all have our own opinions on what looks good on ourselves and others, being well dressed and groomed does not make one a morally superior person. Kindness and consideration, however, do make us better people.

The original question was whether we 'feared' the feminine. It's clear from the responses in this thread that there is a lot of latitude in how the term is interpreted. I'd have to say that no, I don't 'fear' it - I embrace it. But what it means to me to be female (which is the dictionary definition of the word - 'of or pertaining to women or girls') is very broad.

In terms of 'feminine clothing', which is only one aspect of the concept, I wear that style when I choose. And it's not necessarily elaborate, either. In terms of behaviour, I don't think we've arrived at a consensus on what is and is not 'feminine'. Good manners, for example, should be universal. Silly affectations, like a whispery, high pitched, 'girly' voice, are not what I think of as feminine - it's a distortion and a parody. Speaking loudly above a regular speaking tone, aggressively and with a shrill or harsh voice is a trait neither gender should indulge in. Physical violence should be avoided by all of us, male or female, in our day to day lives. On the big screen, I don't think using a gun is either feminine or masculine - it requires the same strength and intelligence in either gender to use it effectively. Martial arts? Given that they rely more on skill than brute strength, I'd say that they can be used by a woman without her 'femininity' being called into question.

 

[Kimberly]

I have no problem not being totally groomed every day. In fact, I wear only lipstick and a little blush on the weekends because I like giving my skin a change to breath (unless I am going somewhere out of the ordinary). I can feel just as feminine in a pair of jeans and a t-shirt as I do a dress and even don't mind getting my hair wet in the rain (in fact, I love going out in the rain without an umbrella ).

I love being a woman because I can dress feminine when I feel like it. I can also put on a pair of shorts and a t-shirt, go outside and do strenuous yard work, get myself into a serious sweat and I still feel feminine because to me it's a state of mind.

As far as judgement, I agree with the notion in general that women are tougher on other women as far as appearance is concerned than most of the men I know. How many times have we looked at a model in a magazine and criticized something about her appearance or done that to a woman on TV. I have only been at the lounge for a little while now and I have not really seen that here and that's one of the things I love about this place. We can all contribute here whether we are in a day dress, and evening gown, a pair of jeans and a blouse, or a pair of sweats. What we wear or what we look like doesn't matter, it's the words we say and the kinship we have developed with each other that does.

 

[Paisley]

I do understand what you are saying Paisley, but lets not forget that every age has a bit of this thing going on. In the Jazz Age for example, it was the flapper with her waist drop tubular dress, short bobbed hair and flattened figure,that was the top of the fashion, with all ideas of feminity turned upside down. [huh] ( And hey! they still managed to look glamorous).
So really, there is nothing new under the sun. The more things change the more they remain the same.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Chris/Pat skits on Saturday Night Live. Chris and Pat were getting married, and nobody knew who was the bride and who was the groom.