Explain the 3-Sphere to me.

[Leather_nube]

For those of you just opening this thread:
This thread is about questioning the very nature of REALITY.
Okay, that’s a big ask. (And it’s interesting to read the earlier comments.)
Some say it boils down to the following: Did consciousness emerge from the fundamental reality of space/time/matter? Or did space/time/matter emerge from the fundamental reality of consciousness?
This guy, Dr Donald Hoffman, is one of the smartest guys I know on the topic. He delves into it mathematically, but can discuss it in laymen’s terms.
Anyway, if you are at all interested in the topic, listen to the first two or three minutes of this interview and you may get hooked. Yes, he will answer the questions that arise from his first bold and shocking statements.
Whether or not you agree with him is another matter.

I listened to most of this today. I’ll have to go over it again a few times to understand it. Was inspirational though. I coded up a new evolutionary game theory model while I was listening. I think it has promise.

Creativity is weird sometimes.

 

[Tiki Tom]

For me, the hypothesis that we live in a computer simulation generates a “so what?” The simulation seems to be so well done that it is indistinguishable from a universe created by god or a universe that appeared by random chance. Most importantly, the simulation is so well done that I think/believe I have a soul. And I’m not alone. So basically: who cares if it is a simulation? AND the question still remains: who (or what) created this grand simulation and how was it done? And why?

 

[Monte.C]

It is my understanding that consciousness IS reality. Nothing exists except that it's witnessed by consciousness. This is called radical subjectivity. There is no objective reality. A thing doesn't exist except if it's being experienced. Does a tree make a sound...? You tell me. You just invented it. It now exists in your imagination, so you tell me about the sound it makes. If I leave an apple on the counter and go into the living room, then while I'm changing channels there is no apple on the counter. It might be more correct to suggest that the apple exists on the counter only as a field of possibility. It's a very strong possibility because I fully expect to find it there when I return, but it isn't certain. A stray cat might have snuck in and stolen it, or any of a myriad possibilities. When I go back in there and pick up the apple, it's once again certain.

 

[Monte.C]

There is no spoon.

 

[Monte.C]

For me, the hypothesis that we live in a computer simulation generates a “so what?” The simulation seems to be so well done that it is indistinguishable from a universe created by god or a universe that appeared by random chance. Most importantly, the simulation is so well done that I think/believe I have a soul. And I’m not alone. So basically: who cares if it is a simulation? AND the question still remains: who (or what) created this grand simulation and how was it done? And why?

 

[Tiki Tom]

It is my understanding that consciousness IS reality. Nothing exists except that it's witnessed by consciousness. This is called radical subjectivity. There is no objective reality. A thing doesn't exist except if it's being experienced. Does a tree make a sound...? You tell me. You just invented it. It now exists in your imagination, so you tell me about the sound it makes. If I leave an apple on the counter and go into the living room, then while I'm changing channels there is no apple on the counter. It might be more correct to suggest that the apple exists on the counter only as a field of possibility. It's a very strong possibility because I fully expect to find it there when I return, but it isn't certain. A stray cat might have snuck in and stolen it, or any of a myriad possibilities. When I go back in there and pick up the apple, it's once again certain.

The universe needs us conscious observers in order to exist. If there were no conscious observers to witness this vast universe, it would cease to exist. (Or so says one school of thought.). But who dreamed up us conscious observers? And how is it possible for billions of conscious observers to synchronize all the realities that they have ginned up out of their individual Consciousnesses? If we didn’t exist would it really be possible for absolutely nothing to exist?

 

[Monte.C]

The universe needs us conscious observers in order to exist. If there were no conscious observers to witness this vast universe, it would cease to exist. (Or so says one school of thought.). But who dreamed up us conscious observers? And how is it possible for billions of conscious observers to synchronize all the realities that they have ginned up out of their individual Consciousnesses? If we didn’t exist would it really be possible for absolutely nothing to exist?

All is one and one is all, and you are what they call "God consciousness". This sensation of separateness is an illusion, as is being here bound by the limits of time and space. All is infinite, infinitely pure and right and correct. Having this limited experience allows you to take on your role as Creator. Experiencing limitation and experiencing wants and desires, things deemed desirable and undesirable (not to mention "good" and "evil") causes you to dream up new creations, new desires and preferences. This is Creation. Ultimately we aren't billions of conscious observers. It's an illusion.

Not arguing at all. Thanks for a bit of healthy discussion. I like leather jackets.

My cat's breath smells like cat food.

 

[Benny Holiday]

What is consciousness? If I am somehow evolved through eons of 'survival of the fittest', what's the use of having a moral code? Why out of so many species on this planet is only one capable of higher reasoning? Why do we die? What's the meaning, even the purpose, of life? Why does the universe show so much order and design, from the ATP synthase motors in living cells to the precise location of the earth from the sun to sustain life?

For me, personally, examining all those questions, all the philosophies and ideas and possible answers, the only one that ever made sense to me is going back to Genesis 1 and Colossians 1. "In the beginning, God made the heavens and the earth," and "all things have been created through Him and for Him." I ain't here to preach; the simple fact is that whatever approach you take to exploring metaphysical concepts, it's going to come down to you having faith in that premise. The evidence, in my mind, always leads me back to the basic tenet that life does have a purpose and meaning, that morality exists simply because we were created by a moral God, Who has created an ordered universe governed by structured laws. Nothing else sufficiently explains to me the world I see around me or my experience as a conscious being.

 

[Monte.C]

What is consciousness? If I am somehow evolved through eons of 'survival of the fittest', what's the use of having a moral code? Why out of so many species on this planet is only one capable of higher reasoning? Why do we die? What's the meaning, even the purpose, of life? Why does the universe show so much order and design, from the ATP synthase motors in living cells to the precise location of the earth from the sun to sustain life?

For me, personally, examining all those questions, all the philosophies and ideas and possible answers, the only one that ever made sense to me is going back to Genesis 1 and Colossians 1. "In the beginning, God made the heavens and the earth," and "all things have been created through Him and for Him." I ain't here to preach; the simple fact is that whatever approach you take to exploring metaphysical concepts, it's going to come down to you having faith in that premise. The evidence, in my mind, always leads me back to the basic tenet that life does have a purpose and meaning, that morality exists simply because we were created by a moral God, Who has created an ordered universe governed by structured laws. Nothing else sufficiently explains to me the world I see around me or my experience as a conscious being.

+1
In the pursuit of truth, there's only so far one can grow/discover/develop before it becomes a spiritual journey. The intellect has certain limits and can get you only so far.

 

[Leather_nube]

that morality exists simply because we were created by a moral God

There is also evidence that morality arose via selection for cooperation.

https://www.eva.mpg.de/documents/Annual Reviews/Tomasello_Origins_AnnRevPsych_2013_1737970.pdf

 

[Monte.C]

...that morality exists simply because we were created by a moral God...

There is also evidence that morality arose via selection for cooperation.

According to my understanding, the whole idea of morality exists only because we have preferences. There is no such thing as good & evil. We can talk about the ten commandments but it's easy to construct a scenario where it's the "right" thing to do to kill someone - which is murder. We see an innocent being brutally mistreated and we say that's wrong, that's bad, that's evil. It's because we have preferences, and we decide no one should act that way toward another, etc. In actuality, everything just happens, and our reality (and what comes next) is shaped by our reaction to what we experience.

There's also the fact that people tend to clump together and make rules about how others should act. This is why, although I've become quite spiritually-oriented, I steer clear of organized religion. Making all those rules equates to their manufactured morality and opens the door to their natural tendency for two people to talk about and judge the third person who isn't in the room.

Just the Truth the way I see it.

 

[Tiki Tom]

There is no spoon.
View attachment 643930

I love that scene.
(going slightly off topic) but it always makes me think of Uri Geller.
Yes, yes, I know that all right-thinking rational people dismiss him as a fraud and a common carnival huckster. But on the other hand: The CIA did indeed study him and came to the conclusion that his psychic abilities were legitimate. Even more telling is the fact that this two-bit magician is worth $20 million and the (main?) source of his money came from oil companies paying him to douse new oil fields for them.
On the other other hand, Mr Geller intentionally muddies the water by telling all kinds of stories that are clearly b*ll sh*t.
Anyway, spoon bending? Once saw an article where a university of phoenix professor defended spoon bending claims…. Found it! (I love the internet!)

https://wc.arizona.edu/papers/94/127/01_3_m.html

Anyway, spoon bending notwithstanding, if even one of these supposed “psychic” abilities were true, it would necessitate a complete reevaluation of our understanding of the nature of reality.

 

[Tiki Tom]

I love thinking about, and trying to pin down, the elusive border where science, physics, and logic meet philosophy, spirituality and —yes— religion. And I’m not above even considering certain “woo woo” topics (as the above Uri Geller post illustrates.) I think about all this stuff way more than is normally acceptable in polite society.

Right now I think I’m at the spot where all my drilling down points to consciousness being the fundamental thing. And then all my thinking about the nature and source of consciousness leads me inexorably to the necessity of the existence of God. (If you have another solid explanation, I am all ears.)

Regarding religion, I come from a unchurched background. The woman who became my wife, however, comes from generations of church goers and ministers. But she is by no means an extremist and her denomination is very liberal and non-dogmatic. Via my relationship with her, I kinda got sucked into church. Prior to that I also viewed all religion as too ridged and rules based.

I was quite surprised to find something very different. The people are (within a general overarching “love” based Christian context) a very open minded bunch who are also questing after the mysteries of it all. Perhaps more importantly I was stunned at the community this group has built. Old people are watched over, when a baby is born people cook meals, all kinds of charity work is engaged in. Realizing that I’m at heart an introvert and a not-so-social guy, it struck me that this sense of community is an important step in my own development.

No one is more surprised than I that this church connection does not conflict with my critical thinking (I hope) about the nature of reality.

 

[Monte.C]

I love thinking about, and trying to pin down, the elusive border where science, physics, and logic meet philosophy, spirituality and —yes— religion. And I’m not above even considering certain “woo woo” topics (as the above Uri Geller post illustrates.) I think about all this stuff way more than is normally acceptable in polite society.

Right now I think I’m at the spot where all my drilling down points to consciousness being the fundamental thing. And then all my thinking about the nature and source of consciousness leads me inexorably to the necessity of the existence of God. (If you have another solid explanation, I am all ears.)

Regarding religion, I come from a unchurched background. The woman who became my wife, however, comes from generations of church goers and ministers. But she is by no means an extremist and her denomination is very liberal and non-dogmatic. Via my relationship with her, I kinda got sucked into church. Prior to that I also viewed all religion as too ridged and rules based.

I was quite surprised to find something very different. The people are (within a general overarching “love” based Christian context) a very open minded bunch who are also questing after the mysteries of it all. Perhaps more importantly I was stunned at the community this group has built. Old people are watched over, when a baby is born people cook meals, all kinds of charity work is engaged in. Realizing that I’m at heart an introvert and a not-so-social guy, it struck me that this sense of community is an important step in my own development.

No one is more surprised than I that this church connection does not conflict with my critical thinking (I hope) about the nature of reality.

Two thumbs up.

 

[Benny Holiday]

According to my understanding, the whole idea of morality exists only because we have preferences. There is no such thing as good & evil. We can talk about the ten commandments but it's easy to construct a scenario where it's the "right" thing to do to kill someone - which is murder. We see an innocent being brutally mistreated and we say that's wrong, that's bad, that's evil. It's because we have preferences, and we decide no one should act that way toward another, etc. In actuality, everything just happens, and our reality (and what comes next) is shaped by our reaction to what we experience.

There's also the fact that people tend to clump together and make rules about how others should act. This is why, although I've become quite spiritually-oriented, I steer clear of organized religion. Making all those rules equates to their manufactured morality and opens the door to their natural tendency for two people to talk about and judge the third person who isn't in the room.

Just the Truth the way I see it.

Perhaps not so much that there's no such thing as good and evil, but is there an objective view of what is good and what is evil, that is, a view outside of ourselves - not 'subjective' morality? If there isn't, then who gets to decide what's wrong and what's right? Who is the arbiter of what is 'good' and what is 'evil'? My version, subjectively, could differ from yours or anyone else's. Who is to say my concept is right and yours is wrong?

If the answer is society, well, the laws that underpin the judicial systems of western countries are based on the Ten Commandments. Societies that didn't or don't have those principles at the root of their laws - say, ancient Sparta or cannibal tribes of the South Pacific - committed acts like killing disabled babies or eating tribal enemies that we would say are evil. But without the Ten Commandments to tell us those acts are murder and are wrong, then how do we know they're wrong? The ancient Spartans and the cannibals didn't, apparently, have an issue with such acts.

Anyways, all very interesting points gentlemen. I live in a society that, by and large, is still affected by the legacy of its convict past (Australia being founded as a British penal colony 236 years ago), so that a great many people don't actually cogitate on anything deeper than watching the 'footy' or drinking at the 'pub'. It has been ingrained into the culture over many generations not to question anything or test the status quo. Covid sure highlighted it to a huge extent. So it's great to hear the opinions of guys who think about stuff that I think is important and interesting.

 

[Monte.C]

Perhaps not so much that there's no such thing as good and evil, but is there an objective view of what is good and what is evil, that is, a view outside of ourselves - not 'subjective' morality? If there isn't, then who gets to decide what's wrong and what's right? Who is the arbiter of what is 'good' and what is 'evil'? My version, subjectively, could differ from yours or anyone else's. Who is to say my concept is right and yours is wrong?

If the answer is society, well, the laws that underpin the judicial systems of western countries are based on the Ten Commandments. Societies that didn't or don't have those principles at the root of their laws - say, ancient Sparta or cannibal tribes of the South Pacific - committed acts like killing disabled babies or eating tribal enemies that we would say are evil. But without the Ten Commandments to tell us those acts are murder and are wrong, then how do we know they're wrong? The ancient Spartans and the cannibals didn't, apparently, have an issue with such acts.

Anyways, all very interesting points gentlemen. I live in a society that, by and large, is still affected by the legacy of its convict past (Australia being founded as a British penal colony 236 years ago), so that a great many people don't actually cogitate on anything deeper than watching the 'footy' or drinking at the 'pub'. It has been ingrained into the culture over many generations not to question anything or test the status quo. Covid sure highlighted it to a huge extent. So it's great to hear the opinions of guys who think about stuff that I think is important and interesting.

Much appreciated, your heart-felt sentiment.
There's too much love in here. Screw you guys, I'm going home. (LOL!)

 

[Benny Holiday]

We need to have a barbecue where we can eat and philosophise about life and the universe. lol
Tiki Tom hosts first, because I'm in love with Hawaii.

 

[Monte.C]

We need to have a barbecue where we can eat and philosophise about life and the universe. lol
Tiki Tom hosts first, because I'm in love with Hawaii.

Hey yeah, wow, we've got a lot of bases covered. Hawaii, Australia and NYC.
Dude.
And I always heard the Australian women love Americans.

 

[Tiki Tom]

Sounds great. I’d LOVE to have a Few beers with a group of guys who want to talk about more than money, taxes, sports, medical ailments, and one-sided politics. I think the last time I had friends with whom I could discuss the meaning of life, curved spacetime, UFOs, spirituality and the possibility of an afterlife was when I was in my early twenties. I’ll bring some steaks to throw on the grill.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Well @Monte.C to be fair, about the only people who don't like Americans are Russians and members of the Chinese Communist Party, and they're all party poopers anyway! Bonus if you guys come here, our dollar is worth about as much as Monopoly money so you get a lot of bargains for your buck. And as Aussies dislike all politicians equally, we tend not to talk about politics at all, not many one-sided party followers in my neck of the woods.