Executions

[Andykev]

Ok, I am a Bartender here on the Lounge, so I will state that this is a HOT TOPIC in the media today. Every Day. Please show respect to people's views.

Tonight the State of California has delayed an execution. A man has been on Death Row for a long, long time. The issue before the Court and of course the "US People", is essentially this: What is Cruel and Unusual Punishment?

Now, I can go on a tirade about the crook, vs. the victim. Who is showing any compassion for the 17 year old girl who was the "alleged" murder vicitm? The killer took a life, and everything that young girl could have been, experienced, became, children she never had, jobs she never took, friends she forever lost.

But the "killer" has sat on "Death Row" for over 20 years. Now is the time for the sentence to be imposed.

But the issue is: Is lethal injection cruel? How do you take a life and not be cruel? Is a firing squad better? The electric chair (OOOOO The Green Mile!), or what?

How about the Court wanting to have the "medical professional" give the lethal dose in one slug, quick and "painless"? What is painless? Did the victim enjoy "painless"? And the ethical question of a medical-trained professional contributing to the loss of a life. Conflict folks? Hummmm.

Ok this is something our SOCIETY, ie. YOU, have to face.

Just what does our current society feel about dealing with the murderer? Life? Oh that is $$$$ Execute? Contrary to "Thou Shalt Not Kill".

So, does anyone have a solution?

 

[Nick Charles]

Give me the needle

I'LL DO IT, and sleep just fine afterwards. They are starting to get so F*&*^ng stupid in these cases lately. Send all of thise rightly convicted with no questionable evidence right to devils ilsand and to hell with them.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

Being that this is a "Hot Topic", I hope that people will be open minded to everyones views, and not berate those you do not agree with. The following is my opinion only, and I do not wish to force it upon anyone else. That said, here goes!
I think that we as taxpayers have spent 20 years supporting this "man" while he patiently waited for his sentence to be completed. In that 20 years, this man, although incarcerated, had a life. A life in which a young, vibrant 17 year old did not have a chance to have. He ate, and drank, and laughed, and maybe had a chance to do a few laps around the prison yard's "play ground". He communicated with people. He dreamed. All of these are things that we take for granted, yet we just paid for this man to do them, when for him, this should have ended many years ago.

As for a medical practitioners oath. It is a tough line, but I think circumstance should allow him/her to cross it without troubles from the public. Doctors carry out services to help the public, and executing this man is another one of those services. If it is such a difficult line to cross, they should train the wardon to perform the injection.

Now for cruel and unusual punishment. This man will be given an injection of a sedative before he is put to death. It will be like he's going to sleep, he just won't wake up. He won't feel pain. Is it better than being shot in the back of the head?? I don't know. Is the electric chair a better idea? Would it be better for him to feel pain, to make up for the pain he caused his victim? These are all questions that can be debated forever. What I do know is that the way his victim died was cruel and unusual, that's what murder is. So, I don't feel badly for this man. I think he should be taken off of the tax payers hands. One less burden to the common man.

Once again, this is just my opinion, I do not wish to force this upon anyone.

 

[Bebop]

Gas, zap, shoot, just get rid of him.

Convicted, sentenced, appealed and if still found executable, executed. All within a 6 month period. That is the only way to make this less cruel. Waiting 20 years to do the deed is anti-climatic. I don't care if someone that has commited such a crime feels pain or is extinguished in a cruel manner. I think a little cruelty may be in order for such a piece of garbage. The main thing is to eliminate the criminal from life. If we are going to have the death penalty, we should not pussy foot around wondering if it is cruel or if we should maybe give this guy another chance for appeal. We should get it done or just abolish the death penalty. You can't have both, death administered by the state and non-cruel intentions. The real cruelty was what he did to his victim not what happens to him. I believe in the death penalty and would like to see it used much more. I think there are way too many useless, evil, horrific people that get away with living a life that they are accustomed to living in prison, which is useless, evil and horrific while the rest of us have to work at life. The people on death row did not get there because they ran too many traffic signals. They ruined many lives in very cruel and unusual ways. I say don't ask if it is cruel. Ask why it takes so long to excecute.

 

[Siirous]

This is not a solution, I truely do not believe that as a society we will ever have a solution that a high percentage of populus will agree to. However, it is a personal belief that those who take a life in cold blood only are and should be considered sub-human; with this being said:

1) I'm not including military forces that are pressured in a be or be killed situation, but those that murder innocents on domestic streets.

2) I'm also not saying that they need be treated with exceptional cruelty. No need for hanging, drawing and quartering here.

3) As far as doctors, they should not be required to take part in taking life on purpose. This is against their oath. Not to say they cannot work on their own free will.

With this I don't care if they get the chair, lethal injection, gas chamber or the firing squad. Either of these are usually a quicker death than their victim. Is taking a life at all cruel? Yes, and it serves them right.

Earlier scripture than "Thou shall not kill" came from Hammurabi and he said (paraphrase) "If a man puts out the eye of another man, his eye shall be put out". Many people use the phrase "An eye for an eye and the world soon goes blind"... but sometimes the only way to see better is to remove the vile cataract covering good sound logic.

I don't know, maybe I'm just a bad person, but I find it hard to sympathize for or care about a murderer. I know they're still human, but I just find that hard to believe. Their crimes make my blood curdle and my stomach turn.

-Rob

 

[yachtsilverswan]

The American Medical Association (AMA) prohibits member doctors from participating directly or indirectly in executions. The AMA considers doctor participation in executions to be an ethical violation. In the past, doctors have been standing-by to pronounce dead the condemned once the execution has taken place, but other personnel actually injected the medications to cause death. The media reported that two anesthesiologists withdrew from the execution at the last minute because they were asked to monitor the condemned during the execution and to intervene if the condemned seemed to be in pain. This expanded role of the doctor apparently resulted from a US Ninth Circus (not sic) Court of Appeals ruling that required the prison to have medical professionals monitor the execution and intervene to stop any pain (resulting from a Cruel & Unusual Punishment claim by the condemned). The prison has postponed the rescheduled execution because they can not find another licensed doctor willing to violate the AMA ethics standard. Possible solutions to this standoff- the prison might be able to locate a Certified Nurse Anesthetist to do the job (nurse anesthetists are not bound by the AMA standard applying to doctors); or the prison might be able to find a doctor who is not a member of the AMA (doctors are not required to be AMA members).

 

[whistlebait]

I wouldn't want to live with the guilt of being the executioner. Sometimes the system fails us.

 

[J. M. Stovall]

Here's my two cent's. Without moralizing here is how I see this whole story. As for the cruel and unusual punishment, that's only his lawyers last ditch effort to postpone his execution. I don't think anyone really believes it. As for the doctors, they should not under any circumstances be involved in executions, they have taken an oath to save lives not take them. If they need someone to monitor the sedative the correctional institutions should have a nurse anesthetist type person trained in the capital punishment staff for just that purpose.
That's how I see it.

 

[Burma Shave]

My mind has changed...

...on this issue. I very strongly believe that murderers, rapists and other massively violent criminals deserve to die. The problem I have with the death penalty is not with the criminal being put to death, but with the trustworthiness of our government in general, and -- in this case -- in the criminal justice system.

The one thing we can trust our government to do is to serve itself first and foremost. Every government "service" I can think of is provided inefficiently and with little regard for the taxpayer or the average American. If we can't rely on the government to effectively educate children, to hold itself to the Constitution (the law of the land), or to do much of anything else, how can we entrust the same system with the power of life and death?

As long as Americans can reasonably have any reason to doubt the motivations, effectiveness and efficiency of our politicians, how can we entrust them with the single most awesome power -- the power to decide who should die?

I've told my family and close friends that if anyone does something to them that would justify the death penalty, I will personally see to it that it's taken care of before the perp goes to court. I'm not willing to rely on government. Some would call that vigilantism. It's not: A vigilante is someone who inserts himself into a situation that doesn't involve him and who isn't in a position to understand what's going on. When a family member deals with the crime himself, it's not vigilantism. It's justice -- something the justice system knows very little about.

 

[Briscoeteque]

A life wasted away in prison is so much more awful to me then being painlessly put down, and therefore I am anti-death penalty, because death is too good for them. They're going to be in hell forever anyway right? A few less years less than forever's still forever.

 

[Bebop]

A life wasted away in prison is so much more awful to me then being painlessly put down, and therefore I am anti-death penalty, because death is too good for them. They're going to be in hell forever anyway right? A few less years less than forever's still forever.

I dig what you are saying but the fact that you may think prison is worse than death and that hell exists for them still leaves us with someone that took a life that can get accustomed to prison and even learn to enjoy a reasonably good life with schooling, decent food, T.V., books, sunshine, visits by relatives. To me, the object is not to do what may be worse or better for the perpetrator but to eliminate the perpetrator from life. That is the ultimate penalty. Morales basically got away with murder for 20 plus years and seems to be getting away with it longer because it has been too long since his crime. People forget and start calling justice, barbaric.

 

[Andykev]

Don't burn your fingers, you will feel the pain

Morales basically got away with murder for 20 plus years and seems to be getting away with it longer because it has been too long since his crime. People forget and start calling justice, barbaric.

Yep. A child touches a hot stove, and burns their hand. Immediate cause and effect. The child will not touch the hot stove carelessly again. Dog training with a buzz collar. Dog will not cross the invisible fence as the buzz collar is not nice.
An armed robber or rapist, or worse? Immediate punishment will send the message. You wait 20 or more years, then you get into the problem of "Crime and Punishment".

A lot less crime would happen if justice was a lot swifter. Not revenge, but justice.

 

[MudInYerEye]

Hopefully the ever-more-common use of DNA testing will help speed up the process between the sentencing and execution of the conclusively guilty, and that there will soon be no more long-term tenants of Death Row. Executions should be carried out by professionals, not doctors.

 

[J. M. Stovall]

Interesting statistics, take from it what you will.

In the latest National Crime Victimization Survey, the Bureau of Justice Statistics reported that the U.S. murder rate for 2003 was about 5.6 per 100,000 persons, unchanged from 2001 and 2002. Of the victims of murder, approximately 49% were white and 49% were black. (DPIC note: While the report found that the race of victims is evenly split nationally, victims in death penalty cases are mostly white (about 81%)). In murder cases, 76% of the offenders were known to the victim, and 24% of offenders were strangers. Firearms were used in 71% of murders and homicides were mostly intraracial (victim and offender of same race). The most cited circumstance leading to murder was an argument (28%). Even though the 2001-2003 murder rate remained steady, death sentences continued their five-year decline in 2003. When comparisons are made between states with the death penalty and states without, the majority of death penalty states show murder rates higher than non-death penalty states. The average of murder rates per 100,000 population in 1999 among death penalty states was 5.5, whereas the average of murder rates among non-death penalty states was only 3.6.

I'm very good at playing the Devil's Advocate.

 

[Steve]

I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m for the death penalty, but I hold that it is somewhat flawed in its execution. America has laws that call for certain punishments. You break them? Tough, it was your choice and you have the subsequent consequences to look forward too.

The problem that I believe the death penalty has, however, is that it is not a frightening deterrent. A man becomes a serial killer, rapist, or some other such criminal; and a hypo is the most frightening thing he can think of. If America is to be a nation of justice, my belief is we need to make the death slower and more painful. I know that sounds somewhat morbid, but does the threat of eternal sleep actually scare gangbangers who have very little to lose in the first place? Especially when they?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re hailed as martyrs when they?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re gone?

When this country was young, we had public lynching and stocks for punishment; not cells with radios and humane injections. My personal belief is that the powers that be need to turn up the heat (figuratively) on convicted high-security felons; and give the judicial boot to the defendant?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s ?¢‚Ǩ?ìloi-yas.?¢‚Ǩ?

And for those of you who think that a life in prison is worse than the death penalty, do you really want to pay for their board?

 

[Lauren]

The man has had 20 years to live with what he did. It's his time to go. If he has any form of remorse, he's been living with it for that time so put him out of his misery. If he doesn't, then he didn't deserve to live the 20 years to begin with. Lethal injection? Better than an arrow through the head, execution by beheading, making him "fight" lions in the colleseum, better than being crucifued, burned at the stake- give me a break. We had way more creative and scary ways to die in the past. Lethal injection shouldn't be considered that "inhumane".

 

[PrettyBigGuy]

Laws are put in place to protect people from criminals. Those that break the law and are convicted should be PUNISHED not just locked away. There are consiquences for every action. Once upon a time when you went to prison, you just sat in box and had access to a library. Now days they have cable TV & conjugal visits! If you are sent to death row, you can watch cable for 20 years, wasting taxpayer money and tying up the courts with appeals, writing a book and marrying crazy women. This doesn't sound like much of a deterant to crime to me. If justice was carried out swiftly and harshly, criminals may think twice (if they are not menatlly ill) about thier actions before commiting a violent crime.
As for doctor's ethics, any prison guard can be trained to use a stethoscope or work a syringe. Why do doctors even have to be involved? A shot in the arm doesn't sound too scary anyway? Not to sound crude, but execution by a more slow & painful method would be more of a deterant to violent crime. Like maybe death by belt-sander or better yet, let the other inmates have him ?ɬ° la Jeffery Dahmer?
I find it very aggravating that my tax dollars are being used to keep this "human" garbage alive for decades when that money would be better spent on medical research or to help the victims of these crimes.

 

[Feraud]

This is a hot topic but all the replies have been very thoughtful, honest, and considerate of opinion.

I must preface my comments with this: Nothing saddens me more to see a person unfairly convicted of a crime. I have read too many cases of men being unjustly imprisoned. Some are executed. Others were murdered before a fair trial. The history of the cases of injustice can leave one feeling hesitant at the idea of Capital Punishment. I encourage trials of this nature to take as much time as they need and explore all of the evidence. Imho, the suppression of evidence in a murder case makes the prosecution as guilty as the murderer.

Having said that, I am for Capital Punishment. Some people cannot & should not be rehabilitated. I say cannot be rehabilitated because some people experience particular trauma in their lives that make them irredeemable. It is sad but true. I also said should not be rehabilitated. I feel the prison system should attempt to reform an offender yet there are some crime that are so abominable in nature that the offender revokes his rights as a citizen/human being. Once you go down this road you must be responsible for your actions. These offenders do not confuse me by complaining about their rights...

Lethal injection appears to not be a 'cruel & unusual' form of punishment. Think of 'drawing and quartering' or 'breaking somone on the wheel'. Now that is cruel and unusual! An injection or firing squad seems mild in comparison.

I believe the presence of a doctor at exection is best left to the individual states and doctors to sort out. The Hippocratic Oath does doctors from doing harm to others.

 

[scotrace]

Another Viewpoint

First let me get it out of the way that I favor capital punishment for the worst crimes. Better to get them out of the gene pool. For it to be a tool for frightening people into playing by the rules, it should probably be switfy enforced after modern DNA testing proves guilt beyond doubt. Twenty years of appeals serves the interest of no one. And yes, lethal injection seems a pretty easy way out - it's how we put the pets we love to sleep, isn't it?

That being said, I am the uncle of a man who is serving a minimum 20 year sentence for simple (not premeditated) murder. Though it was a sudden "he snapped," the circumstances were quite horrific.
I can tell you that such a person, if my nephew is any kind of average, faces plenty of time alone to think, plenty of rough business while incarcerated, and over time, the total disconnection from family and friends. Since his imprisonment, he has lost many relatives to death, missed many births and marriages. At first, family visited. Now, no one does. It's as though he were dead - to get a letter from him is surreal - like getting a note from a dead person. When he is finally paroled, he'll be marked by the victim's rather unsavory family for revenge. And probably unwelcome anywhere near home.
He is right where he should be. Prison is punishment for what he did. And had he gotten the ulitimate sentence... well... he broke a very, very serious law.

 

[Prairie Shade]

CONFLICTED

How long have societies tried to find answers to the problem of mans conduct towards man? I personally have been on both sides of the issue thru my life. I also argued for and against bullfighting. Hell, I've been on different sides of the same issues so many times I've forgotten where some of the debates began. BUT, I believe in one rule: There are only two reasons to kill anything. 1. To eat and 2. To keep from being killed. I believe societys job of thinning the herd (so to speak) falls in the latter. I personally dont want to face some of these individuals when I come out of a restaurant after eating with my wife, or any other time for that matter. Do any of you? Not being a religous person, I do believe that crimes against your creator can only be forgiven by the almighty. Crimes against man are adjudicated by man. If you google U S Army Hanging Manual I believe you will find an alternative that is cheap, and very effective, and tailored for the individual. By the way, the last hangman for the State of Kansas just died about 1-2 years ago. I believe he presided over the execution of Messrs. Smith-Hickok. No needles, just a long drop on a short rope. I almost hate to post this.