Executions

[J. M. Stovall]

But that's exactly my point. I've been digging up a few facts to highlight the discussion, but you'll notice that I have not used them to bolster either side of this issue (and I never have said what I think). I just tried to introduce some info to clarify what is often accepted as fact. Are there convicted death row murderers roaming the streets? Not that I can determine. Is the death penalty, or even prison at all a deterent? Who knows. Personally I think most criminals are not smart enough to even think that far ahead.

 

[shamus]

And a few more thoughts on this subject.

Prison use to be a small cell and lots of time to think. Now it's a small TV viewing room. Let's get rid of the TV and let them think about what they did. They use to call it the stir right? You can read, but TV does nothing to help them. It's only a way to escape.

I think people in prison should get college degrees. Why not, so when they get out, they can have a chance at a better life. I doubt many people on death row are getting degrees.

And if you want to save money.. then by all means put your kids in prison so they can get a "free-ride!"

 

[Briscoeteque]

With the cost of all of the appeals, execution ends up being more expensive then life without parole. And getting rid of the appeals process isn't a good answer eiather, some innocent people really do get out on appeal that otherwise would be criminally excuted by the state.

TVs are used in prisons to control them. Couch potatos are easier to take care of and are far less likely to cause trouble. Prison is not a restricted paid for hotel. Being in prison for the rest of your life is far worse than being isolated for a few years until a painless death. Heck, after I graduated early from high school, I decided to take three weeks inbetween that and getting a job. Sleeping, eating, television and reading, and I was living in my nice house and I still went absolutely stir crazy.

Besides, when's the last time anyone thought 'Whoa, I better not kill this guy, because I might get executed.' They eiather aren't thinking at all, or are smart enough to be dettered by a life lost over time without hope. It's not the ultimate punishment. It's euthanasia for someone who doesn't deserve a good death, but having no freedom, no space, being subjected to strict and butal punishments for decades before succombing to cancer or heart disease. And such a punishment isn't cruel and unusual, it's just life and death in its harshest natural form.

 

[Section10]

Verrrry interesting

I'm going to log in here as being dead set against the death penalty. The reasons are complex and I'm not going to bore everyone here with a long dissertation, but basically and briefly it boils down to:
#1. I don't trust the government that much. If you are going to allow it to execute someone then you are also giving it permission to execute you as well whenever it feels the need to. Remember, true guilt or innocence has nothing to do with anything on this issue. [The only thing that counts is guilt or innocence in the eyes of the law.] Now I know I am a piece of property and the government is free to lock me up if it feels I've become a threat to society, but I give it no permission to kill me. When it does that, it is assuming a right that it does not have. The only one who can take life is the one who gave it. That is why murder is such a terrible crime in the first place.
#2. I firmly believe the Bible does not teach us to deliberately kill or execute each other for whatever reason. I believe in self-defense and if I am able to stop an attacker, I will. If his life is put at risk in order to be stopped then so be it. But the motive is never to kill, only to stop.
If some Christian wants to challenge me on the Biblical issue of death by execution I am willing to discuss it, but they had better have done their homework, because I've done mine.

 

[Michaelson]

Just to clarify, before King James' biblical scholars translated the Bible to the Kings satisfaction, the original translation was 'thou shall not murder'. There's where the scholars also get into a quandry...is capital punishment a 'killing' by approval of the State....or murder?

Regards! Michaelson

 

[Lauren]

.
#2. I firmly believe the Bible does not teach us to deliberately kill or execute each other for whatever reason. I believe in self-defense and if I am able to stop an attacker, I will. If his life is put at risk in order to be stopped then so be it. But the motive is never to kill, only to stop.
If some Christian wants to challenge me on the Biblical issue of death by execution I am willing to discuss it, but they had better have done their homework, because I've done mine.

I'm sure you've read the Old Testament. It's the same God as in the New Testament. Saying "thou shalt not kill" if it means kill at all, means that there's no way God would ever go for a war, taking ove a country or a people, etc. I am interested in what backup you can provide for this claim.

 

[Section10]

regarding prison escapes

A few years back, I spent quite a bit of time in a high security state prison (almost) rubbing shoulders with inmates (not as an inmate myself, thank goodness) and it seemed like it would be an insurmountable challenge to escape from that place. Never say never, I suppose, but I honestly don't know how it could be done without a lot of co-operation from the guards.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Here in Illinois a while back 13 innocent men that were on death row were cleared through DNA evidence. Putting innocent people to death doesn't serve anyone. Not the victims or society.

 

[jamespowers]

A few years back, I spent quite a bit of time in a high security state prison (almost) rubbing shoulders with inmates (not as an inmate myself, thank goodness) and it seemed like it would be an insurmountable challenge to escape from that place. Never say never, I suppose, but I honestly don't know how it could be done without a lot of co-operation from the guards.

Go watch Escape from Alcatraz. No guards' help needed.

Regards,

J

 

[Briscoeteque]

Go watch Escape from Alcatraz. No guards' help needed.

Regards,

J

Too bad they froze to death, and death's the ultimate punishment, so they got theirs, eh?

 

[Section10]

I'm sure you've read the Old Testament. It's the same God as in the New Testament. Saying "thou shalt not kill" if it means kill at all, means that there's no way God would ever go for a war, taking ove a country or a people, etc. I am interested in what backup you can provide for this claim.

True enough. By the way, I am a pacifist. Not by my will, but by my conviction. My gut feeling is the same as everyone else's here. But it's not about gut feelings it's about right and wrong. And it's not about retribution, but about morality. If you're going to talk about killing people, morality has to enter into it otherwise civilization has gotten us nowhere. I'm not being soft. The Bible tells us that if you even think about doing it, you're just as guilty as the one who actually did it. So where does that leave all of us?
Neither is it about taking a few Bible passages here and there to make a point, but it's about developing a systematic theology that works and makes sense and doing that requires balancing all the passages together into a comprehensive doctrine that is consistent with the fundamental message of Christ.
Far too many Christians are willing to conform scripture to their lives - to incorporate it into what they already believe about common issues. The real honesty comes when you conform your life to scripture regardless of the sacrifices. You cannot be an ambassador of death and of life at the same time. It just doesn't work that way. A lot of killing took place in the O.T. by the followers of God, but God always took the credit for it. He claimed it was done by him. Here and now, I'll not go into the reasons for that, but he's not calling us to do it that way any longer. He is calling us to walk in light.
Beware, those of you who cry out too loudly for justice; heaven forbid, you might just get it.

 

[jamespowers]

I#2. I firmly believe the Bible does not teach us to deliberately kill or execute each other for whatever reason. I believe in self-defense and if I am able to stop an attacker, I will. If his life is put at risk in order to be stopped then so be it. But the motive is never to kill, only to stop.

So you reserve your right to meter out the death penalty yourself to a would be attacker but do not grant that to those who could not defend themselves and thus were killed unjustly? Who is to meter out justice for them if they cannot and by what means? Seems too exclusive a venture for me. You have to live in order to be a victim who deserves justice. Does their family get to do to the criminal what you would have done on a one on one basis? [huh]
Michaelson is quite right the commandment should be You shall not murder not kill. It makes no sense the other way. From Wikipedia:
"In the criminal law, murder is the crime where one human being causes the death of another human being, without lawful excuse, and with intent to kill or with an intent to cause grievous bodily harm (traditionally termed "malice aforethought")" Capital punishment by its definition is not murder. If the victim's family were to undertake retribution for the criminal's actions then we would charge them with murder because they have not been duly powered by the law to meter out justice in their own manner. Justice follows a process.
If you act in accordance with your example you can very well be charged with murder in some degree if you do not "fear for your life" and have reasonable cause to think that the criminal is out to do you bodily harm. Therefore all you have to fall back on is the law and its ability to obtain justice for you whether you are alive or dead. I hope you never have to be faced with that decision or situation. A member of my family has. Fortunately his actions were justified.

Regards to all,

J

 

[jamespowers]

Too bad they froze to death, and death's the ultimate punishment, so they got theirs, eh?

Uh, actually not. If you watch Myth Busters, you would see that it was and still is possible to do what they did and survive to make a perfect escape.
The point being that they never did find a single body did they?

Regards to all,

J

 

[Lauren]

True enough. By the way, I am a pacifist. Not by my will, but by my conviction. My gut feeling is the same as everyone else's here. But it's not about gut feelings it's about right and wrong. And it's not about retribution, but about morality. If you're going to talk about killing people, morality has to enter into it otherwise civilization has gotten us nowhere. I'm not being soft. The Bible tells us that if you even think about doing it, you're just as guilty as the one who actually did it. So where does that leave all of us?
Neither is it about taking a few Bible passages here and there to make a point, but it's about developing a systematic theology that works and makes sense and doing that requires balancing all the passages together into a comprehensive doctrine that is consistent with the fundamental message of Christ.
Far too many Christians are willing to conform scripture to their lives - to incorporate it into what they already believe about common issues. The real honesty comes when you conform your life to scripture regardless of the sacrifices. You cannot be an ambassador of death and of life at the same time. It just doesn't work that way. A lot of killing took place in the O.T. by the followers of God, but God always took the credit for it. He claimed it was done by him. Here and now, I'll not go into the reasons for that, but he's not calling us to do it that way any longer. He is calling us to walk in light.
Beware, those of you who cry out too loudly for justice; heaven forbid, you might just get it.

I see your points, but I do believe in the death penalty, and I am not a Christian who conforms my faith to what my personal beliefs or political standpoint are. I guess we'll find out when we die what God intended. I still think it's amazing how many Christians are segmented by Theology. I love to intelectualize and philosophy and dissect scripture till I'm blue in the face, but it's really sad how we as Christians let it segregate us when we're supposed to be united for a bigger cause.

 

[Section10]

So you reserve your right to meter out the death penalty yourself to a would be attacker but do not grant that to those who could not defend themselves and thus were killed unjustly? Who is to meter out justice for them if they cannot and by what means? Seems too exclusive a venture for me. You have to live in order to be a victim who deserves justice. Does their family get to do to the criminal what you would have done on a one on one basis? [huh]
Michaelson is quite right the commandment should be You shall not murder not kill. It makes no sense the other way. From Wikipedia:
"In the criminal law, murder is the crime where one human being causes the death of another human being, without lawful excuse, and with intent to kill or with an intent to cause grievous bodily harm (traditionally termed "malice aforethought")" Capital punishment by its definition is not murder. If the victim's family were to undertake retribution for the criminal's actions then we would charge them with murder because they have not been duly powered by the law to meter out justice in their own manner. Justice follows a process.
If you act in accordance with your example you can very well be charged with murder in some degree if you do not "fear for your life" and have reasonable cause to think that the criminal is out to do you bodily harm. Therefore all you have to fall back on is the law and its ability to obtain justice for you whether you are alive or dead. I hope you never have to be faced with that decision or situation. A member of my family has. Fortunately his actions were justified.

Regards to all,

J

If we are simply answerable to the laws of the land then I have no grounds whatsoever. Same thing with abortion, euthansia or any other moral issues out there. Sorry, but I don't see it as me being allowed to exercise the death penalty. I wish innocent victims could be brought back, but no matter how many criminals we kill, it just won't happen. Is there justice in this? I guess it depends on what you call justice. I see injustice everywhere I look. Yet I also have to believe that justice is real and ultimately all debts will be paid and all wrongs will be righted either with or without my interference.

 

[Briscoeteque]

Uh, actually not. If you watch Myth Busters, you would see that it was and still is possible to do what they did and survive to make a perfect escape.
The point being that they never did find a single body did they?

Regards to all,

J

I never saw that episode, but I really can't picture that working. When I visited Alcatraz, everyone there said the same (I think plausible thing), that there is first of all, a killer riptide, inbetween Angel Island (where they were going) and Alcatraz. Secondly, San Fransisco Bay is absolutely freezing. All of the (Park Rangers?) seemed sure to me they got caught up in the current and froze. There was one guy who managed to get as far as they did, and they found him freezing beneath the Golden Gate bridge where he would have died without medical attention.

But you're right, no body, no proof. Still I think the chances of someone getting out of a modern prison are even less, and are outweighed enough (to me) by the benifits of life without parole.

 

[Lincsong]

Hanging is the best and most effective way

About ten years ago in Washington they were going to have their first execution and it was to be done by hanging. The criminals attorney's argued that it was cruel and unusual punishment because he would "suffer". So they monitored what happened; the noose was placed around his neck, the bag over his head, the trap door was opened, when he fell the rope instantly snapped his neck and he died instantly. I say HANG 'EM HIGH!

 

[Andykev]

My final thoughts, and thanks for the civil posts!

I have enjoyed the response to my post. It seems, like in my College days, the seminar "Socratic" dialog form of instruction is quite lively.

I asked "What is Cruel and Unusual Punishment?"
What is the solution?


Many have chimed in on their view pro and con, religion, economic, justice, victim, inmate...personal experience, innocents being executed wrongfully convicted...the entire point of view.

Just like posting on "ABORTION"...it will bring out extreme opinions. That is why I love America..you, YES YOU, can express your true thoughts with respect. And here on the Lounge, this so far has been the case on this very hot topic.

Unlike abortion, which I feel is a remedy to the result of an unwanted event, (save rape cases), EXECUTIONS are the result of MANY MANY hours, days, weeks, years of scrutiny.

I only wish victims had the same thoughtful protections before they were killed.

I believe Executions should only, and only be imposed for MURDER cases, not the accidental drunk driver killing some poor, poor motorist or jogger. Still, the loss of life is quite acute in that "victim's " family.

My take is this: If you are going to have Capital Punishment...it has to occur much sooner than 20+ years later.
#2, if anyone thinks there is insufficient appeal, or independant review of the condemmned person's case, you are living in Utopia.
#3, a "cottage industry" exists amongst LAWYERS who send entire families to college, with straight teeth, and new cars, all thru appeals of death penalty cases.
#4, some argue that the death penalty is not a deterrent. Who cares? The murderer is removed from our society. Would you say the vicious wolf who eats your lambs "wasn't petted enough?" No, you would shoot the predator.
#5, What were you thinking? A doctor or nurse to administer the drug? NO! Find some guy who has no inihibitions, train him to poke a needle...it's done.
#6, whoever posted the link on hangings, wow. I had no idea.
#7, like in Russia, or Nazi Germany, or elsewhere, "Thought Crimes" , statements against the "State" or other subversive activity is dealth with harshly. People disappear in the night kind of thing. My neigbor visited Estonia a few years back, after the fall of Communism, and STILL they were afraid to speak their peace at the dinner table. Yes, there is something to be said about "immediate and swift" justice. OK that was a stretch.

Lastly, I am not God. But I think that someone who hits a 17 year old KID on the side of the head three times, killing her, then he rapes her dying or dead body....and ....

Do you want that knock on the door by your policeman, at 2AM? Sir...Ma'm...we have some bad news...your son, daughter.....

That is a PAIN you carry FOREVER.

I regularly go to coffee in Alamo. A woman is there every day. She is a "mom" in her late 60's. Her son, DANIEL NIMI, was shot and killed on duty last year in San Leandro, CA.

She is now living the pain of the preliminary hearing, jury selection, trial, oh and Christmas came, then a birthday, then a 50 year anniversary,..and there is a home with photos and daily reminders.

SO..has anyone offered a SOLUTION?

 

[Nathan Flowers]

alright then.

I think that a good many of us have had our say on this topic for now. I want to thank everybody for being civil on such a hot topic.