Do you count 1945 through 1963 as part of the Golden Era?

[jamespowers]

They're on the oldies circuit now, lol!

Oh geez! Thanks. :doh:

 

[Tomasso]

Professional sports were largely segregated until the forties -

Actually, pro football was open to blacks in its early years but then purged them for around a decade before allowing them back. Paul Robeson paid for Columbia law school with his pro football earnings. Fritz Pollard (a great back from Brown) was a head coach/player at the time of the purge.

 

[sheeplady]

While I agree with the latter part of this statement, I have never heard of a White person having to "apologize" for not liking rap, especially when the biggest consumers of rap music are White suburban kids. Let me put it this way, the careers of many rap stars like Lil Wayne, Nicki Minaj, Kanye West, Rick Ross, etc..wouldn't be as prominent if it weren't for their nonBlack audiences. Black music is marketed and consumed to/by nonBlack audiences going all the way back to Motown.

I've heard it about maybe 15 times in my life, something that goes like this, "I just don't like rap. I understand that it is music, but it's just not my taste." This normally goes on for a couple of minutes if the person is speaking to someone they perceive as liking rap because of their skin color. Everyone around this person sees that they are slowly burying themselves deeper. There are some people who believe that every black/ african american person in the world likes rap/ motown/ blues/ etc. These people also seem to believe that if they say they don't like rap or motown or whatever it is, people will assume they are racists.

To another white person, this type of person would simply say, "I don't like rap" without further explaining that they believe it to be music, have great respect for the artists, etc. Though, to be honest, it isn't younger people who I have ever seen say this, it tends to be the over 35 crowd.

The lady (or gentleman) doth protest too much sort of thing.

Maybe I just run in a neck of the woods were this is common, but I am sure I am not the only person who has ever seen this happen. Of course white people like all sorts of music and are marketed all sorts of music. What I am getting at is the subset of people who apologize for not liking something.

ETA: These type of people I suspect would do the same to any ethnicity/ culture they perceive someone to belong to that they don't like the "music" they believe is of that culture. I've been apologized to from people who don't like country music because people perceive me as being from the country, and therefore, I must LOVE country western. And it is somehow offensive to me because someone doesn't like country music.

 

[vitanola]

I've heard it about maybe 15 times in my life, something that goes like this, "I just don't like rap. I understand that it is music, but it's just not my taste." This normally goes on for a couple of minutes if the person is speaking to someone they perceive as liking rap because of their skin color. Everyone around this person sees that they are slowly burying themselves deeper. There are some people who believe that every black/ african american person in the world likes rap/ motown/ blues/ etc. These people also seem to believe that if they say they don't like rap or motown or whatever it is, people will assume they are racists.

To another white person, this type of person would simply say, "I don't like rap" without further explaining that they believe it to be music, have great respect for the artists, etc. Though, to be honest, it isn't younger people who I have ever seen say this, it tends to be the over 35 crowd.

The lady (or gentleman) doth protest too much sort of thing.

Maybe I just run in a neck of the woods were this is common, but I am sure I am not the only person who has ever seen this happen. Of course white people like all sorts of music and are marketed all sorts of music. What I am getting at is the subset of people who apologize for not liking something.

ETA: These type of people I suspect would do the same to any ethnicity/ culture they perceive someone to belong to that they don't like the "music" they believe is of that culture. I've been apologized to from people who don't like country music because people perceive me as being from the country, and therefore, I must LOVE country western. And it is somehow offensive to me because someone doesn't like country music.

The only music that it appears to be entirely acceptable to denigrate these days is polka music.

 

[jamespowers]

The only music that it appears to be entirely acceptable to denigrate these days is polka music.

You like Polka Music?! :rofl:

 

[vitanola]

You like Polka Music?! :rofl:

Yes

What's so funny about it?

Now I do agree that the musical idiom of polka (which includes waltzes, obereks and rhinelanders) became a mite moronic during the 1950's, but tthen so did popular music.

What's so risible about this?
[video=youtube_share;ZRn8QadguKo]http://youtu.be/ZRn8QadguKo[/video]

 

[vitanola]

The Cesky iteration of the dance (the one that I learned as a youngster at Sokol) is charming.

[video=youtube_share;dONXZBrje2w]http://youtu.be/dONXZBrje2w[/video]

The "Polish Hop"on the other hand is not entirely to my taste, but it does have its good points, particularly when one's partner is, well, developed.

 

[Two Types]

Though I must say that West Ham United had the good taste to choose this song from 1918 as their anthem. :thumb:

[video=youtube;Kn7NGJezKSQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn7NGJezKSQ[/video]

The great thing about 'Bubbles' is that it is so unbelievably miserable. It's the least triumphal sports song ever. A sports team with a theme song that compares bubbles ('they fly so high, they touch the sky') to one's aspirations ('then like my dreams they fade and die') is just perfect. Much better than some air-punching, sing-a-longa rock anthem.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

I never really was a cat person until Prince Louis became an addition to the household. However, he's the very antithesis of what the FL stands for because he likes anything new: new furniture, a box that he hadn't seen before, etc. Because that's where he'll sleep until something else "new" comes along.

Here he is monopolizing a chair I recently acquired.

He's a beautiful cat!

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

ARRGGHH!!
I'll throw this out.... I've always believed that a very significant factor in black communities, especially but far from only in the USA, not really embracing the vintage thing is because for them they really weren't the "good old days". (Probably applies to a lot of other folks too - if you weren't white, rich, Christian and preferably male, I'm sure it wasn't the gas that it could be if you were.) Segregation. Prejudice. All sorts of hassle... Hell, we can debate all day about whether Hitler snubbed Jesse Owens, we can celebrate his victory over the Aryan Supermen, but just how often do we stop to think about whether he'd even have been allowed to compete against the white folks in his own country? Or whether this national hero could sit at the front end of a bus? I'm not trying to stir up argument here, nor should this be perceived as a criticism of anyone, simply pointing out that it is at least plausible that there are some very clear cultural reasons why some communities might not be so keen to celebrate a past where life would have been significantly impinged for them.

Yes this is true and another one of my theories, I just didn't want to make my post too long. Even though this is true, cultures pass traditions and histories down from generation to generation. That is not happening because since the introduction of crack cocaine into American society and the fast money and high crime rate it brings plus the war on drugs coupled with high unemployment for men, families are no longer intact. So dysfunctional families don't pass down history so you have generation of Black youth who don't even know their own history much less American history to even have a love of the good aspects of the Golden Era, because even with segregation and all the stuff that went with it, there were still good things to be celebrated about those times, imo.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

That's exactly it -- many of the better hotels featured live music in their restaurants, grills, or ballrooms every night, and the radio networks broadcast remotes from these locations every night from about 11pm to 1am, making this music and the bands that played it an indelible part of the Era. Many bands took the names of the hotels where they played -- Richard Himber and his Hotel Ritz Carlton Orchestra, George Hall and his Hotel Taft Orchestra, Ben Bernie and his Hotel Roosevelt Orchestra, and so forth. Such bands often played the same rooms for years at a time, while other hotels had a policy of changing their bands every few weeks or so.

Most of the bands that played in such rooms tended to emphasize middle-of-the-road arrangements of popular tunes in fox-trot time, for conventional, casual dancing -- you wouldn't find elaborate dance routines or jitterbugging, but if Joe and Sally Punchclock wanted a pleasant night on the town they'd go to such a room, have a nice meal, and enjoy a dance or two. Most people could execute a basic fox trot and waltz, and the music was straightforward enough not to get beyond the dancers.

These bands, precisely because they were so straightforward, were ideal showcases for the popular songs of the era -- the performance didn't get in the way of the composition, which is a big part of the reason why the thirties were the undisputed Golden Era of the American Popular Song. Even later in the thirties, when swing bands became popular, they tended to play a toned-down style of music when playing hotel dates.

Most of the hotel dance bands were white orchestras, but there were also black orchestras that played white hotels -- even Duke Ellington's band often played hotel dates in the thirties. One black orchestra, that of Noble Sissle, played almost exclusively in the "hotel dance band" style, proving that musical essentialists to the contrary, not all black bands played "hot" music. Chick Webb, who was well known for his hot band, also recorded quite a bit of straight hotel-style dance music. Ella Fitzgerald, who was Webb's vocalist in the late thrities, consciously patterned her initial singing style on Dolly Dawn, the long-time singer for George Hall's Taft Hotel orchestra, a band which has been frequently singled out for its "cottony whiteness." Musicians themselves tended to be far less essentialist on such things than the modern-day music fans.

Man, you're a walking encyclopedia, is there anything you DON'T know?

I do know about Dolly Dawn, I read about her and Ella at the Jazz museum in Kansas City. And now that I think about it, I have seen old ads showcasing hotel bands. It really shows how times have changed, you couldn't have a band in a hotel these days, I don't think it could work. I don't think you could generate enough revenue to even pay them.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Interesting that there was this difference in the different sports... Do you think that had a big influence on the stereotyping of black sportsmen as "naturals" in those specific sports (athletics and boxing) came from?

Sports such as boxing, football, basketball don't require any financial investment to get any training, so these sports are popular in poorer neighborhoods. Compare that to golf and tennis where you need to have some financial means to join a club or hire a coach to get skilled and it's easy to see why those sports are not popular in those poorer neighborhoods. This is why when Serena and Venus Williams came on the tennis scene and totally dominated their opponents people were shocked that 2 girls from Compton, a rough and poor neighborhood could trounce players who had access to some of the best coaches money could buy.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

I've heard it about maybe 15 times in my life, something that goes like this, "I just don't like rap. I understand that it is music, but it's just not my taste." This normally goes on for a couple of minutes if the person is speaking to someone they perceive as liking rap because of their skin color. Everyone around this person sees that they are slowly burying themselves deeper. There are some people who believe that every black/ african american person in the world likes rap/ motown/ blues/ etc. These people also seem to believe that if they say they don't like rap or motown or whatever it is, people will assume they are racists.

To another white person, this type of person would simply say, "I don't like rap" without further explaining that they believe it to be music, have great respect for the artists, etc. Though, to be honest, it isn't younger people who I have ever seen say this, it tends to be the over 35 crowd.

The lady (or gentleman) doth protest too much sort of thing.

Maybe I just run in a neck of the woods were this is common, but I am sure I am not the only person who has ever seen this happen. Of course white people like all sorts of music and are marketed all sorts of music. What I am getting at is the subset of people who apologize for not liking something.

ETA: These type of people I suspect would do the same to any ethnicity/ culture they perceive someone to belong to that they don't like the "music" they believe is of that culture. I've been apologized to from people who don't like country music because people perceive me as being from the country, and therefore, I must LOVE country western. And it is somehow offensive to me because someone doesn't like country music.

I see. Sounds like they are overcompensating.

Reading this reminds me of something else I have experienced. I notice that some people will change the way they talk when speaking with me. They intentionally litter their speech with "Black slang" . I believe they do this to appear more "hip". As we all know, slang is common in all cultures but Black slang was usually only known within the Black community. Cab Calloway even had to publish a book full of Black slangs so that his white audiences would know what he was talking about. Now, with the prevalence of rap, this is no longer the case. I am a member of another board and the board is like 90% White, with the remaining 10% Asian. You would think you were on a board full of Black youth because they speak just like us now. I was shocked when I began to notice this but when you have popular sites like Rap Genius that deconstructs rap lyrics, (and rap music utilizes a lot of Black slang) it is no longer surprising that a 15 year old White kid in North Dakota now speaks like a 15 year old kid in Baltimore, MD. I was shocked when I first witnessed this because growing up, I couldn't use Black slang around other groups because I know they wouldn't know what I was talking about. We would code switch, meaning speak one way around Blacks by using slang and African American Vernacular English (AAVE), but speak standard English at work and around nonblack crowds. Seems like it's getting to the point where this is not going to be necessary for long.

 

[Fading Fast]

I've heard it about maybe 15 times in my life, something that goes like this, "I just don't like rap. I understand that it is music, but it's just not my taste." This normally goes on for a couple of minutes if the person is speaking to someone they perceive as liking rap because of their skin color. Everyone around this person sees that they are slowly burying themselves deeper. There are some people who believe that every black/ african american person in the world likes rap/ motown/ blues/ etc. These people also seem to believe that if they say they don't like rap or motown or whatever it is, people will assume they are racists.

To another white person, this type of person would simply say, "I don't like rap" without further explaining that they believe it to be music, have great respect for the artists, etc. Though, to be honest, it isn't younger people who I have ever seen say this, it tends to be the over 35 crowd.

The lady (or gentleman) doth protest too much sort of thing.

Maybe I just run in a neck of the woods were this is common, but I am sure I am not the only person who has ever seen this happen. Of course white people like all sorts of music and are marketed all sorts of music. What I am getting at is the subset of people who apologize for not liking something.

ETA: These type of people I suspect would do the same to any ethnicity/ culture they perceive someone to belong to that they don't like the "music" they believe is of that culture. I've been apologized to from people who don't like country music because people perceive me as being from the country, and therefore, I must LOVE country western. And it is somehow offensive to me because someone doesn't like country music.

I believe that some, not all, of the people who apologize, et al. are truly just trying to be nice and sensitive in a culture that has devoted much discussion to subtle slights and subtext of comments. Because of that, some well-intended people over compensate because they've picked up from our general cultural that there are all these subtle racist / sexist / inappropriate comments that they want to make sure they aren't making. It just isn't simple anymore (never was, we just have our own new complexities).

 

[Edward]

Gorgeous boy! Mine are the same... anything that comes in gets sniffed, poked, rubbed on and evetually sat on. Every cat I've ever hung out with was guaranteed to want to sit on something - even if it's an a4 piece of paper on the floor, they'd rather sit on that than the carpet. I'd give a lot to hear their thoughts on what they're doing.

Though I must say that West Ham United had the good taste to choose this song from 1918 as their anthem. :thumb:

I associate it most strongly with its use in Ashes to Ashes and Green Street... I don't care for football myself, though the tribal element of the fandom I can understand.

Quite Interestingly, I recently learned (from a T.V. show from your own country), that Hitler didn't snub Owens. He snubbed everyone. Told that he couldn't just congratulate the German winners, it had to be everyone or no one, he chose the latter. Apparently it was not Hitler's snub that really hurt Owens, it was F.D.R.'s.

Yes, I think I saw that too. BBC? I remember reading years ago that Jesse Owens said that when he won, Hitler smiled and waved or something along those lines. It's certainly true that he left the stadium and didn't present any of the medals (not even the solid gold ones - the only time in Olympic history that the gold were solid gold). I can well imagine that Owens' own president not meeting him was more of a kick in the teeth than Hitler - or any other foreign head of state.

I remember when I first got interested in early 20th century Americana, I was somewhat shocked by the pervasiveness of racist attitudes--toward a lot of groups, but mostly black people. I've gotten somewhat inured to it since then, but as a white guy, I have that luxury. I still have trouble sitting through the scene in A Day at the Races where Harpo cavorts with a bunch of 'happy negroes with a natural sense of rhythm.'

There's always two types of prejudice - that which outright hates and denigrates - the Klan, the white supremacists - and that which is born of ignorance - the folks who think all black people are criminal gang members or such, or who even just use inappropriate terminology and have odd views but because they don't mean anything deliberately derogatory, they don't understand why it's racist. My grandmother still refers to anyone who isn't white as a "darky", and simply doesn't understand why that's not appropriate because she has no malice whatever towards those people. In many ways that's the sort of prejudice that is much harder to fight. It's interesting, though, looking back and seeing how these things change over time. I remember when certain characters on popular television over here, mostly soap operas, were considered ground breaking, whether they were black, Jewish, or even gay. Looking back now at some of those they really make me cringe becuase made today they'd be offensive stereotypes, however in their day they really were a big leap forward. Mindful as I am not to condone the prejudices and bigotires of the past, I suppose we also have to understand the context of what was commonly believed appropriate then too if we are gonig to fully comprehend the past.

Indeed. Rachel Robinson -- Jackie's widow -- has mentioned that the first time she went South was when she accompanied her husband to his first Spring Training with the Dodgers organization in 1946. When the train first crossed into a segregated state and they were told to move to the Jim Crow car, she didn't understand what was happening, because she'd never been exposed to such a thing in her life. Her husband first experienced such segregation when he was in the Army, and he had fought back -- preceding Rosa Parks by more than a decade in his refusal to go to the back of a bus. He ended up being court-martialed for his protest, and after the case became a national embarassment for the Army he was acquitted. People were already getting wise to such issues well before the "Civil Rights Era," and there was already a rising body of criticism for Jim Crow practices, from liberal-oriented whites as well as from blacks.

My impression from history is that with any of these sorts of changes, what gets remembered most clearly are the last stages where a movement gains critical mass and succeeds, but certainly that all has to start somewhere - usually unpublicised, quiet acts that slowly build.

Oh, absolutely, and those stereotypes are every bit as common now as they were then. People always have comments when a Kenyan inevitably wins the Boston Marathon, no matter how "enlightened" they think they are.

Sadly all too true.

The great thing about 'Bubbles' is that it is so unbelievably miserable. It's the least triumphal sports song ever. A sports team with a theme song that compares bubbles ('they fly so high, they touch the sky') to one's aspirations ('then like my dreams they fade and die') is just perfect. Much better than some air-punching, sing-a-longa rock anthem.

Very much the case! I appreciate the juxtaposition of that too.

Yes this is true and another one of my theories, I just didn't want to make my post too long. Even though this is true, cultures pass traditions and histories down from generation to generation. That is not happening because since the introduction of crack cocaine into American society and the fast money and high crime rate it brings plus the war on drugs coupled with high unemployment for men, families are no longer intact. So dysfunctional families don't pass down history so you have generation of Black youth who don't even know their own history much less American history to even have a love of the good aspects of the Golden Era, because even with segregation and all the stuff that went with it, there were still good things to be celebrated about those times, imo.

Certainly still good things to be marked, and it's important to have a sense of one's own community's history, I agree. Ultimately I'm sure thepicture is much more complicated than that one thing; just seems to me that it's a major factor in a lot of black kids not being as keen on getting into that era (not the only barrier, of course, as you note).

Sports such as boxing, football, basketball don't require any financial investment to get any training, so these sports are popular in poorer neighborhoods. Compare that to golf and tennis where you need to have some financial means to join a club or hire a coach to get skilled and it's easy to see why those sports are not popular in those poorer neighborhoods. This is why when Serena and Venus Williams came on the tennis scene and totally dominated their opponents people were shocked that 2 girls from Compton, a rough and poor neighborhood could trounce players who had access to some of the best coaches money could buy.

True, the less equipment it requires, the easier it can be to get into. I've never been a golfer, but from what I gather the fees for membership of a club to be able to play are so high that they really make it inaccessible for a lot of folks, much more so than the club et cetera. Oddly enough, here in the UK the sports you'd think would be cheapest to get into - athletics, which is basically running a bit fast and being able to thrown things, in the main - is one of the most elitist. The GB team at the last Olympics was far and away dominated by folks from wealthy backgrounds, and with the training regimes they're on and the vast majority of them being professional now (I'm sure I remember that being frowned on even as recently as 1984?), they really do need to have some sort of funding behind them. At a grassroots level, though, the less equipment the more popular it will be. I've long believed that's why soccer football has enjoyed a level of global popularity that some other sports, such as American football, have not.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Indeed. I live in the Whitest State In The Union, and a day doesn't go by when I don't hear a car full of sixteen year old boys going by thumping hip-hop out the windows.

I mentioned middle-aged white people and their affinity for blues, and this is no exaggeration: every summer there's a big blues festival in town here. 10,000 people come to town for this event, and the only black faces you see are the ones on the stage. Somebody could write a very interesting paper on Cultural Colonization And The Blues.

I remember going to the Juneteenth Blues Festival in Houston a number of years ago (Albert Collins was headlining that night) and being the only white guy in the crowd of about 5,000. I also frequent local jazz clubs with a saxophone-playing friend of mine, and I'm usually the only white guy in the crowd. It always makes me sort of a celebrity, which is an interesting feeling.

As for white people and the blues, it's no secret that rock n roll does not exist without it, particularly the syncopated rhythms, minor pentatonic scales and I-IV-V chord progressions that are the foundations of post-war "jump blues" and rock n roll. It's not surprising that old white guys love them both.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Yes, I think I saw that too. BBC? I remember reading years ago that Jesse Owens said that when he won, Hitler smiled and waved or something along those lines. It's certainly true that he left the stadium and didn't present any of the medals (not even the solid gold ones - the only time in Olympic history that the gold were solid gold). I can well imagine that Owens' own president not meeting him was more of a kick in the teeth than Hitler - or any other foreign head of state.

On the other hand, though, most people don't realize that it didn't become customary for the President to meet with Olympians at the White House-- any Olympians -- until President Ford began the practice in 1976.

There's always two types of prejudice - that which outright hates and denigrates - the Klan, the white supremacists - and that which is born of ignorance - the folks who think all black people are criminal gang members or such, or who even just use inappropriate terminology and have odd views but because they don't mean anything deliberately derogatory, they don't understand why it's racist.

I think of this as the "Some Of My Best Friends Are (miniorities)" sort of prejudice, or the "You're different, you're not like the rest of them" sort. There are still plenty of people in the world who figure as long as they can point to their Cool Black Friend, their Sassy Gay Friend, Their Mouthy Working-Class Friend, or whatever, that they're automatically innocent of any sort of prejudice.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Every cat I've ever hung out with was guaranteed to want to sit on something. I'd give a lot to hear their thoughts on what they're doing.

I have a couple of cats. I can assure you...they all think great thoughts.

"I wonder if there's food in the magic bowl. Maybe I should check...or maybe I should take a nap. Bowl? Nap? Bowl? Nap? Darn. Is that dirt on my left paw? I just cleaned that paw, how did dirt get there again? Come to think of it, I probably need to clean my behind, too. But I'll wait for the human to be entertaining company before I do that. What was that grinding noise in the kitchen? Was that the magic noise that makes food appear in the magic bowl? No…probably not. The human hasn’t reappeared through his portal…so it probably wasn’t the magic noise. I wonder if the human enjoyed that squirrel head I brought for him this morning. He didn’t seem very happy when he left, so maybe he didn’t find it. Crap. The magic bowl still looks empty. OK...then I’ll just sleep for a minute or two…."

AF

 

[Fading Fast]

On the other hand, though, most people don't realize that it didn't become customary for the President to meet with Olympians at the White House-- any Olympians -- until President Ford began the practice in 1976.



I think of this as the "Some Of My Best Friends Are (miniorities)" sort of prejudice, or the "You're different, you're not like the rest of them" sort. There are still plenty of people in the world who figure as long as they can point to their Cool Black Friend, their Sassy Gay Friend, Their Mouthy Working-Class Friend, or whatever, that they're automatically innocent of any sort of prejudice.

But it is more complex to me than this. We live in a culture that constantly discusses race (whether we think it is discussed in the right way is another issue), but the issue is constantly in the news, is part of the studies at Universities, is part of diversity training (often required) at many companies and is discussed by pundits and opinion writers regularly. Also, we are encouraged (thankfully) to recognize the contribution of different cultures and groups of people, for example, during well-publicized events such as Black History Month. Hence, while I try to judge a person on their merits and actions - period, full stop - how can't I recognize that they are also part of a larger group that our society discusses as a group?

Yes, some prejudice people use the "some of my best friends are…" nonsense as some sort of public talisman to displayed their prejudice-free thinking, but our society doesn't make it simple to not recognize that your friend is from some group. I do sometimes think of my friends as part of a group that is different from my group - and they discuss themselves as being part of a group. They will on one day express pride in that group and the next day express dismay at some behavior of the group. I do the same about my group.

I believe the good goal is a race-blind society, but how can we expect that today when we actively promote race identity / discussion / group achievement, etc? I have learned a lot from Asian appreciation events (as I am not Asian) - am I suppose to turn that knowledge and impressions off when I meet an Asian person. I think I should and should form my opinion purely on his or her actions, but then what is the point of those events?

I think this is very complex and, yes, there are and will continue to be prejudice people who hide behind phrases and other artifice - and shame on them - but there are also many well-intended people who are trying to do the right thing, but aren't sure what that is as I tried to note above, our culture and our approach is challenging even to those who are of the best intentions.

 

[Tomasso]

Sports such as boxing, football, basketball don't require any financial investment to get any training, so these sports are popular in poorer neighborhoods. Compare that to golf and tennis where you need to have some financial means to join a club or hire a coach to get skilled and it's easy to see why those sports are not popular in those poorer neighborhoods. This is why when Serena and Venus Williams came on the tennis scene and totally dominated their opponents people were shocked that 2 girls from Compton, a rough and poor neighborhood could trounce players who had access to some of the best coaches money could buy.

The Williams sisters were a surprise (a mild one at best) more from how they came up through the ranks than from where they came from. In US tennis history there have been a good many champions who were products of the "public courts", both black (Arthur Ashe, Athea Gibson) and white (Billie Jean King, Jimmy Connors). The thing that made the Williams sisters unique to these others is that they rarely participated in age group tournaments, prefering instead to train against each other in private under their father's tutelage. So while the tennis world was well aware of them, there was too little tournament play to accurately indicate how well they would perform at the professional level. But even as they were flying somewhat under the radar, you had Bud Collins touting their play from their early teens.