Do you count 1945 through 1963 as part of the Golden Era?

[CaramelSmoothie]

Sure you can, go to an NBA game.....where you'll get rapped on the head.

I was just about to ask you if you preferred East Coast or West Coast rap. Tupac vs. Biggie Smalls. I was SURE you would be a rap connoisseur, LOL!

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

I think you see the greatest example of this when a white person apologizes to a black/ African American person for not liking rap. It is both a sad indicator of race knowledge (since skin color has nothing to do with musical taste) and the state of talk about race in this country (we're so afraid of having a frank discussion that we even avoid topics that are close to opening up the perceived ant nest of race because we're so uncomfortable talking about it).

While I agree with the latter part of this statement, I have never heard of a White person having to "apologize" for not liking rap, especially when the biggest consumers of rap music are White suburban kids. Let me put it this way, the careers of many rap stars like Lil Wayne, Nicki Minaj, Kanye West, Rick Ross, etc..wouldn't be as prominent if it weren't for their nonBlack audiences. Black music is marketed and consumed to/by nonBlack audiences going all the way back to Motown.

 

[LizzieMaine]

While I agree with the latter part of this statement, I have never heard of a White person having to "apologize" for not liking rap, especially when the biggest consumers of rap music are White suburban kids. Let me put it this way, the careers of many rap stars like Lil Wayne, Nicki Minaj, Kanye West, Rick Ross, etc..wouldn't be as prominent if it weren't for their nonBlack audiences. Black music is marketed and consumed to/by nonBlack audiences going all the way back to Motown.

Indeed. I live in the Whitest State In The Union, and a day doesn't go by when I don't hear a car full of sixteen year old boys going by thumping hip-hop out the windows.

I mentioned middle-aged white people and their affinity for blues, and this is no exaggeration: every summer there's a big blues festival in town here. 10,000 people come to town for this event, and the only black faces you see are the ones on the stage. Somebody could write a very interesting paper on Cultural Colonization And The Blues.

 

[jamespowers]

This is also largely true in the U.S., especially regarding the Beatles. My dad was an original rock 'n' roller in the '50s, who subsequently got into delta and jump blues and my Mom is a classically trained opera singer. Needless to say, I didn't grow up in a house where the Beatles were even mentioned.

It's much to my amusement that I've often been accused of musical illiteracy by folks who couldn't name a single piece by an composer, other than perhaps Beethoven or Mozart, because I'm not familiar with the entire Beatles catalog....

Musical illiteracy?! They like the Dung Beatles for goodness sake! :rofl:

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Indeed. I live in the Whitest State In The Union, and a day doesn't go by when I don't hear a car full of sixteen year old boys going by thumping hip-hop out the windows.

I mentioned middle-aged white people and their affinity for blues, and this is no exaggeration: every summer there's a big blues festival in town here. 10,000 people come to town for this event, and the only black faces you see are the ones on the stage. Somebody could write a very interesting paper on Cultural Colonization And The Blues.

Yep, the Black art form of the Blues is being kept alive by Caucasians. Same thing with swing dancing/music. They took Frankie Manning out of obscurity and revived his career and swing dancing. Every video I have seen of the swing dancing scene on Youtube has been devoid of black faces even though swing dancing is the grandparent of modern day hip hop dancing. The average Black person just wouldn't be into that because it is seen as "back in the day".

I think there are several reasons for this, one of my theories is that Black American youth culture is very trendy, trendier than other cultures imo. Slang, music, clothing changes constantly and the youth expect their fellow members to keep up because if they don't they are looked at as being uncool. So whatever art forms are created don't get much love for that long.

Another one of my theories: Let me preface this by saying that I don't mean to offend anyone by saying this and I totally disagree with this mindset, but to many Blacks, anything that attracts a lot of Whites is viewed as uncool. I'm guessing this mindset is not only due to ignorance but to the history of segregation of this country. So if you were to drop a bunch of Black people into a Blues concert, even if the performers are Black, the fact that the racial makeup of the crowd doesn't reflect them would make them think "oh, this is for white people". There is a silly notion among some that if you do something "too white" your Black identity may be questioned. I have even been a victim of this for liking animals. I have been told "you act like a white person" for really being in love with my cats, lol, but I know how to handle those type of comments.

 

[jamespowers]

I was just about to ask you if you preferred East Coast or West Coast rap. Tupac vs. Biggie Smalls. I was SURE you would be a rap connoisseur, LOL!

Where does 2Live fall in all of this?

 

[KayEn78]

Ugh. The hideous "background/soundtrack" "music" for every blasted documentary, History Channel etc. is so annoying and just plain awful! It seems as though every place you go to now considers '80s music as "oldies." Bring back the '50s and '60s, please!

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Where does 2Live fall in all of this?

They're on the oldies circuit now, lol!

 

[LizzieMaine]

Another one of my theories: Let me preface this by saying that I don't mean to offend anyone by saying this and I totally disagree with this mindset, but to many Blacks, anything that attracts a lot of Whites is viewed as uncool. I'm guessing this mindset is not only due to ignorance but to the history of segregation of this country. So if you were to drop a bunch of Black people into a Blues concert, even if the performers are Black, the fact that the racial makeup of the crowd doesn't reflect them would make them think "oh, this is for white people". There is a silly notion among some that if you do something "too white" your Black identity may be questioned. I have even been a victim of this for liking animals. I have been told "you act like a white person" for really being in love with my cats, lol, but I know how to handle those type of comments.

Good for you. If there should be anything that transcends race, it should be cats. All the best people love cats.

There's an awful lot of white people who take the view that anything historically "white" is automatically "uncool, lame and stupid." I enjoy hotel dance bands from the thirties -- which most modern-day music critics would describe with such derisive phrases as "whitebread," "cottony white," "the whitest music this side of heaven," and other such terms. To which I say, "Well, I like white bread, too. So there." But we've had ferocious exchanges right here on the Lounge from people who set themselves far above such "white" cultural artifacts by suggesting that they, themselves, are too "cool" for such things.

But the way I look at it, the whole concept of "cool" is another great example of cultural colonization. The whole idea of the "cool" pose as a way of ironically detaching one's self from unpleasant realities goes back to the days of slavery and segregation, when it was used as a form of emotional self-protection by people who didn't have the luxury of using "cool" as a shorthand description for desirable consumer goods. Middle-class whites over the last sixty years have taken "cool" and turned it into the ultimate form of consumer conformity -- "If you're cool, you'll buy this product, wear these clothes, listen to this music." And in doing so, they've obliterated the actual sense of defiance in the face of oppression that created "cool" in the first place. That's why I dislike so-called hipsters and their ilk so much -- they're taking something that isn't theirs and turning it into a shallow mockery of what it really was. I think that's really -- ah -- uncool.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Good for you. If there should be anything that transcends race, it should be cats. All the best people love cats.

There's an awful lot of white people who take the view that anything historically "white" is automatically "uncool, lame and stupid." I enjoy hotel dance bands from the thirties -- which most modern-day music critics would describe with such derisive phrases as "whitebread," "cottony white," "the whitest music this side of heaven," and other such terms. To which I say, "Well, I like white bread, too. So there." But we've had ferocious exchanges right here on the Lounge from people who set themselves far above such "white" cultural artifacts by suggesting that they, themselves, are too "cool" for such things.

But the way I look at it, the whole concept of "cool" is another great example of cultural colonization. The whole idea of the "cool" pose as a way of ironically detaching one's self from unpleasant realities goes back to the days of slavery and segregation, when it was used as a form of emotional self-protection by people who didn't have the luxury of using "cool" as a shorthand description for desirable consumer goods. Middle-class whites over the last sixty years have taken "cool" and turned it into the ultimate form of consumer conformity -- "If you're cool, you'll buy this product, wear these clothes, listen to this music." And in doing so, they've obliterated the actual sense of defiance in the face of oppression that created "cool" in the first place. That's why I dislike so-called hipsters and their ilk so much -- they're taking something that isn't theirs and turning it into a shallow mockery of what it really was. I think that's really -- ah -- uncool.

Outstanding post Lizzie. :eusa_clap
I have to admit I do understand the annoyance that some of my friends have towards animal lovers. I understand that when you have a people whose existence in a country was spent fighting for basic human rights, you really have no time left over for fighting for animal rights, although some will say that they don't have to be mutually exclusive. Or, if you're a person born in an impoverished country, the "rights" of animals is not really high on your to do list. That explains why you'd have a better chance of seeing little green men from Mars than you would a Black PETA member lol.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

If there should be anything that transcends race, it should be cats. All the best people love cats.

I never really was a cat person until Prince Louis became an addition to the household. However, he's the very antithesis of what the FL stands for because he likes anything new: new furniture, a box that he hadn't seen before, etc. Because that's where he'll sleep until something else "new" comes along.

Here he is monopolizing a chair I recently acquired.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Oh, btw, what are "hotel dance bands"? I assume they are bands that played in hotels? I had no idea there was such a thing.

 

[Edward]

ARRGGHH!! I hate it when I spend ages writing a response and then the site crashes...

So nobody liked the Beetles?

Import, but overrated. Mind you, anything of note is inevitably overrated, so.

I don't know why they called them the Fab Four.
btw, which one is Ringo?

Top left. Big nose.

In the UK, you are made to feel like a Philistine if you dare to say that sixties music, The Beatles, Rolling Stones, et al, are not to your taste. You don't have to say that you don't like them, just daring to suggest that there might be other popular music is seen as a sacrilege.

It's a common thing globally. I hate the fetishisation of the Sixties as some sort of perfect era... though it's fast being replaced by the eighties in pop culture in that respect as the generation running the media changes and shifts to focus on its own youth. I grew up in the eighties, but a few good horror flicks aside I don't tend to feel I owe them much. Sure as hell don't want to revive them.... butg then I've heard that said by somebody about pretty much any era too.

There is something though that the Golden age couldn't give me. I'm a baby-boomer, born in 1946. I have never been called up to do compulsory military service, and I have never been exposed to war, (although I was convinced that WW3 would start in the 1950's.)
There has to be something said for that.

1974. Might have been born into and lived through, technically, a low level civil war, but extremely grateful never to have had to live through a war with that sort of impact, nor press-ganged into any sort of military service. The cultural fetishisation I've seen of WW2 here in the UK horrifies me; even moreso how it will turn out as that generation die away (one only has to look at the revisionism in relation to the first world war since Harry Patch died to see how it could go).

For some reason among the people I know I seem to be the only one who's not into blues. [huh]

Do you know a lot of hobbyist guitar players? That's the community most involved in keeping it alive, imo.

It is impossible to exist in American society without being force-fed thousands of hours of the, er, "stuff" that you mention here. Jangly, noisy, pointless electric guitar. Would that Adolph Rickenbacker had been born without hands...

The birth of the electric guitar was a wodnerful and inevitable thing: if not Adolph, someone else would have done it. Unless, that is, guitars had never made it out of clubs with an audience of no more than about 20 people, who would sit there and listen silently.

One minor point. Django Reinhardt's music should really be called hot jazz rather than "Gypsy" jazz for two reasons. First of all, classifying the man's music by his ethnicity is limiting. And secondly, the term Gypsy is very much disliked by most Roma people. Some Roma actually consider the term "gypsy" racial slur (although I'm sure that's not what you intended at all).

Interesting - over here, it seems to be different: the Roma community objected very strongly to the use of the word "Gypsy" in connection with a docusoap about a certain kind of Irish traveller. They seemed to be asserting a certain form of ownership over the word that implied they didn't find it offensive, but it would make sense to me if these things varied the US as if often the case. The earliest usage of it I've seen was Shakespeare's Anthony and Cleopatra - Cleo is referred to as a "gypsy", reflecting a belief the Elizabethans had that Egypt was the root of all Roma. Certainly makes sense that words and their meaning and acceptability evolves as does language in general.

What's funny is that I'm sure that the people who came of age in, say, the 1890s, thought that Gershwin and his contemporaries were rubbish, lol. Each generation thinks their own music is the best. I'm sure that people who were in their prime during the Golden Era got a lot of eyerolls from their elders on their choice of music and style of dress.

Socrates decried the youth culture of his era. The one thing all eras have in common, if nothing else, is a previous generation grumbling about how the world has gone to hell.

What I hate is how rock has permeated almost every aspect of our popular culture. I would once like to see a commercial, documentary or TV show without a rock soundtrack. They seem to feel a need to insert it even in a History Channel documentary about B-17s!

Even that has mostly moved on in my experience. Course, you don't get that sort of thing with dear old BBC4...

You can't even watch a ballgame without rock being crammed down your gullet. When I used to go to Fenway Park as a kid they had John Kiley unobtrusively playing show tunes on an organ between innings. Now not only is there thumping, incessant rock blasted at you between innings, but every player has to have his personalized "entrance music" thumping and pounding every time he comes to bat.

Bah. If I wanted to go to a WWF match I'd go to a WWF match.

Experienced that at both the ice hockey games I went to in the UK, with little brother, who's a fan of the Belfast team. They played a lot of songs I liked - but only ever fifteen seconds at a time, interupting while the puck was in play for twenty seconds or so, then cutting back to anthoer snippet of another song, and on. It was like being at a disco run by people with severe AD/HD.

I mentioned middle-aged white people and their affinity for blues, and this is no exaggeration: every summer there's a big blues festival in town here. 10,000 people come to town for this event, and the only black faces you see are the ones on the stage. Somebody could write a very interesting paper on Cultural Colonization And The Blues.

Absolutely. We've seen since the early twnetieth century the blues rise as a folk music, often a protest music, and then become an established genre which is about a specific sound. Inevitable, really, if it is to succeed as time goes onand the original guys who worked the cotton fields, born on plantations, start to die off. Of the big names, I think BB King is about the only original left?

I think there are several reasons for this, one of my theories is that Black American youth culture is very trendy, trendier than other cultures imo. Slang, music, clothing changes constantly and the youth expect their fellow members to keep up because if they don't they are looked at as being uncool. So whatever art forms are created don't get much love for that long.

I'll throw this out.... I've always believed that a very significant factor in black communities, especially but far from only in the USA, not really embracing the vintage thing is because for them they really weren't the "good old days". (Probably applies to a lot of other folks too - if you weren't white, rich, Christian and preferably male, I'm sure it wasn't the gas that it could be if you were.) Segregation. Prejudice. All sorts of hassle... Hell, we can debate all day about whether Hitler snubbed Jesse Owens, we can celebrate his victory over the Aryan Supermen, but just how often do we stop to think about whether he'd even have been allowed to compete against the white folks in his own country? Or whether this national hero could sit at the front end of a bus? I'm not trying to stir up argument here, nor should this be perceived as a criticism of anyone, simply pointing out that it is at least plausible that there are some very clear cultural reasons why some communities might not be so keen to celebrate a past where life would have been significantly impinged for them.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Experienced that at both the ice hockey games I went to in the UK, with little brother, who's a fan of the Belfast team. They played a lot of songs I liked - but only ever fifteen seconds at a time, interupting while the puck was in play for twenty seconds or so, then cutting back to anthoer snippet of another song, and on. It was like being at a disco run by people with severe AD/HD.

Though I must say that West Ham United had the good taste to choose this song from 1918 as their anthem. :thumb:

[video=youtube;Kn7NGJezKSQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn7NGJezKSQ[/video]

 

[LizzieMaine]

Oh, btw, what are "hotel dance bands"? I assume they are bands that played in hotels? I had no idea there was such a thing.

That's exactly it -- many of the better hotels featured live music in their restaurants, grills, or ballrooms every night, and the radio networks broadcast remotes from these locations every night from about 11pm to 1am, making this music and the bands that played it an indelible part of the Era. Many bands took the names of the hotels where they played -- Richard Himber and his Hotel Ritz Carlton Orchestra, George Hall and his Hotel Taft Orchestra, Ben Bernie and his Hotel Roosevelt Orchestra, and so forth. Such bands often played the same rooms for years at a time, while other hotels had a policy of changing their bands every few weeks or so.

Most of the bands that played in such rooms tended to emphasize middle-of-the-road arrangements of popular tunes in fox-trot time, for conventional, casual dancing -- you wouldn't find elaborate dance routines or jitterbugging, but if Joe and Sally Punchclock wanted a pleasant night on the town they'd go to such a room, have a nice meal, and enjoy a dance or two. Most people could execute a basic fox trot and waltz, and the music was straightforward enough not to get beyond the dancers.

These bands, precisely because they were so straightforward, were ideal showcases for the popular songs of the era -- the performance didn't get in the way of the composition, which is a big part of the reason why the thirties were the undisputed Golden Era of the American Popular Song. Even later in the thirties, when swing bands became popular, they tended to play a toned-down style of music when playing hotel dates.

Most of the hotel dance bands were white orchestras, but there were also black orchestras that played white hotels -- even Duke Ellington's band often played hotel dates in the thirties. One black orchestra, that of Noble Sissle, played almost exclusively in the "hotel dance band" style, proving that musical essentialists to the contrary, not all black bands played "hot" music. Chick Webb, who was well known for his hot band, also recorded quite a bit of straight hotel-style dance music. Ella Fitzgerald, who was Webb's vocalist in the late thrities, consciously patterned her initial singing style on Dolly Dawn, the long-time singer for George Hall's Taft Hotel orchestra, a band which has been frequently singled out for its "cottony whiteness." Musicians themselves tended to be far less essentialist on such things than the modern-day music fans.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Most of the hotel dance bands were white orchestras, but there were also black orchestras that played white hotels -- even Duke Ellington's band often played hotel dates in the thirties. One black orchestra, that of Noble Sissle, played almost exclusively in the "hotel dance band" style, proving that musical essentialists to the contrary, not all black bands played "hot" music. Chick Webb, who was well known for his hot band, also recorded quite a bit of straight hotel-style dance music. Ella Fitzgerald, who was Webb's vocalist in the late thrities, consciously patterned her initial singing style on Dolly Dawn, the long-time singer for George Hall's Taft Hotel orchestra, a band which has been frequently singled out for its "cottony whiteness." Musicians themselves tended to be far less essentialist on such things than the modern-day music fans.

Another was Fletcher Henderson who later became an arranger for Benny Goodman.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'll throw this out.... I've always believed that a very significant factor in black communities, especially but far from only in the USA, not really embracing the vintage thing is because for them they really weren't the "good old days". (Probably applies to a lot of other folks too - if you weren't white, rich, Christian and preferably male, I'm sure it wasn't the gas that it could be if you were.) Segregation. Prejudice. All sorts of hassle... Hell, we can debate all day about whether Hitler snubbed Jesse Owens, we can celebrate his victory over the Aryan Supermen, but just how often do we stop to think about whether he'd even have been allowed to compete against the white folks in his own country? Or whether this national hero could sit at the front end of a bus?

He wouldn't have had any trouble on the bus as long as he stayed north of the Mason-Dixon line. Buses and bathrooms and such were only segregated in the Southern and border states. He would, however, have had a rough time trying to buy a house on Long Island.

As far as interracial athletic competion was concerned, it was actually quite common by the thirties. College sports programs had been integrated for years in Northern and Western schools -- granted, few blacks attended such colleges but those who did were permitted to freely compete. Paul Robeson became an All-American football player while attending Rutgers University, and Jackie Robinson was a star player for UCLA. Jesse Owens himself had become famous well before the Olympics for his accomplishments at Ohio State, and he followed in the footsteps of one of the heroes of the 1932 Olympics, Eddie Tolan, who was a multi-sport star in the twenties at Michigan State.

Professional sports were largely segregated until the forties -- with one big exception. Boxing was second only to baseball as the most popular pro sport in America during the thirties, and Joe Louis was a genuine national hero as heavyweight champion, especially after he destroyed Max Schmeling in 1938. The Louis-Schmeling bout was the most-listened-to radio broadcast of the entire decade, and Louis was one of the few African-American personalities of the time whose appeal genuinely crossed racial lines.

 

[Edward]

He wouldn't have had any trouble on the bus as long as he stayed north of the Mason-Dixon line. Buses and bathrooms and such were only segregated in the Southern and border states. He would, however, have had a rough time trying to buy a house on Long Island.

It's an aspect of the history i need to learn more about - obviously it varied significantly by area. According to Wikipedia, he was born in Alabama, but when he was nine the family moved to Ohio to get away from the segregation in Alabama. I imagine that made sometihng of a difference, although, as you note, there were still prejudices.

As far as interracial athletic competion was concerned, it was actually quite common by the thirties. College sports programs had been integrated for years in Northern and Western schools -- granted, few blacks attended such colleges but those who did were permitted to freely compete. Paul Robeson became an All-American football player while attending Rutgers University, and Jackie Robinson was a star player for UCLA. Jesse Owens himself had become famous well before the Olympics for his accomplishments at Ohio State, and he followed in the footsteps of one of the heroes of the 1932 Olympics, Eddie Tolan, who was a multi-sport star in the twenties at Michigan State.

Professional sports were largely segregated until the forties -- with one big exception. Boxing was second only to baseball as the most popular pro sport in America during the thirties, and Joe Louis was a genuine national hero as heavyweight champion, especially after he destroyed Max Schmeling in 1938. The Louis-Schmeling bout was the most-listened-to radio broadcast of the entire decade, and Louis was one of the few African-American personalities of the time whose appeal genuinely crossed racial lines.

Interesting that there was this difference in the different sports... Do you think that had a big influence on the stereotyping of black sportsmen as "naturals" in those specific sports (athletics and boxing) came from?

 

[Nobert]

I'll throw this out.... I've always believed that a very significant factor in black communities, especially but far from only in the USA, not really embracing the vintage thing is because for them they really weren't the "good old days". (Probably applies to a lot of other folks too - if you weren't white, rich, Christian and preferably male, I'm sure it wasn't the gas that it could be if you were.) Segregation. Prejudice. All sorts of hassle... Hell, we can debate all day about whether Hitler snubbed Jesse Owens, we can celebrate his victory over the Aryan Supermen, but just how often do we stop to think about whether he'd even have been allowed to compete against the white folks in his own country? Or whether this national hero could sit at the front end of a bus? I'm not trying to stir up argument here, nor should this be perceived as a criticism of anyone, simply pointing out that it is at least plausible that there are some very clear cultural reasons why some communities might not be so keen to celebrate a past where life would have been significantly impinged for them.

Quite Interestingly, I recently learned (from a T.V. show from your own country), that Hitler didn't snub Owens. He snubbed everyone. Told that he couldn't just congratulate the German winners, it had to be everyone or no one, he chose the latter. Apparently it was not Hitler's snub that really hurt Owens, it was F.D.R.'s.

I remember when I first got interested in early 20th century Americana, I was somewhat shocked by the pervasiveness of racist attitudes--toward a lot of groups, but mostly black people. I've gotten somewhat inured to it since then, but as a white guy, I have that luxury. I still have trouble sitting through the scene in A Day at the Races where Harpo cavorts with a bunch of 'happy negroes with a natural sense of rhythm.'

 

[LizzieMaine]

It's an aspect of the history i need to learn more about - obviously it varied significantly by area. According to Wikipedia, he was born in Alabama, but when he was nine the family moved to Ohio to get away from the segregation in Alabama. I imagine that made sometihng of a difference, although, as you note, there were still prejudices.

Indeed. Rachel Robinson -- Jackie's widow -- has mentioned that the first time she went South was when she accompanied her husband to his first Spring Training with the Dodgers organization in 1946. When the train first crossed into a segregated state and they were told to move to the Jim Crow car, she didn't understand what was happening, because she'd never been exposed to such a thing in her life. Her husband first experienced such segregation when he was in the Army, and he had fought back -- preceding Rosa Parks by more than a decade in his refusal to go to the back of a bus. He ended up being court-martialed for his protest, and after the case became a national embarassment for the Army he was acquitted. People were already getting wise to such issues well before the "Civil Rights Era," and there was already a rising body of criticism for Jim Crow practices, from liberal-oriented whites as well as from blacks.

Interesting that there was this difference in the different sports... Do you think that had a big influence on the stereotyping of black sportsmen as "naturals" in those specific sports (athletics and boxing) came from?

Oh, absolutely, and those stereotypes are every bit as common now as they were then. People always have comments when a Kenyan inevitably wins the Boston Marathon, no matter how "enlightened" they think they are.