Do you believe in little green men?

[HungaryTom]

Samsa,

I did understand what you were argumenting about.
I just could not let those 2 things uncommented - the chatbox in me Cryptozoology would be a really interesting topic - we see a lot of animals in the Zoo which were 'crypto' a few centuries ago.

Maj.Nick Danger,

Re the site you posted I believe that it takes idealism (not materialism) to believe in things without seeing them first hand. To sceptics those pictures are either hoax or they are just paintings.

I heard the comment by hardboiled materialists that if God really exists why are there wars...If he exists lets make this or that miracle happen. For non-believers you can't bring the proof. And the Bible mentions a lot of visitings.

Believing in an UFO when it lands next to you is not belief - it is a certainty.

What I wrote in my first post about appearances was exactly because of similar photos. Folklore, mythology and religions - have kept those stories.
As I said it takes an idealist to believe in such fields, since it is not 'scientific'.

Arts, Divinity and Science are different branches. They are all 'serious': there you get doctorates in all 3 fields (DLA, DD, DSc) at established universities.

Strangely just the Science&Technology is taken seriously nowadays... many people seem to believe scientists are serious, scientific proof is the only way and the other 2 fields in life are rather also-run: goofy and/or boh?©me.

To me religious texts (not in the Bible only) + those artworks (and many more) and the folklore are also a PROOF that something has happened and there were some visitors. I also explained why I think we are lucky that they weren't another flesh and blood humanoid species.

But as I said many times I am NOT a Materialist but Idealist (I believe in material and non-material things).

Regards:

Tom.

 

[Twitch]

Thanks Major Nick for retrieving your initial topic intent and off of plastic models from the 1950s.:eusa_doh:

As I said earlier the probability that we are not alone is hugely stacked in that direction. Whether or not aliens have visited us is almost a secondary issue. The phenomena of aerial objects out of place (especially before 1903) is the true question. Certainly all of these sightings do not have any one answer. Again, by analysis of statistics we will assurtedly arrive at a finite number of them that have no immediate or perceivable explanation.

We can use this method of extrapolation on any subject where unexplained events are categorized and studied. There will remain a portion of events that are not define-able. In this case it doesn't mean they are extra terrestrial, simply unknown.

As we deduce a broad spectrum of visual events experienced by a vast cross section of humanity we begin to form conclusions as percentiles. A percentage of unknown aerial phenomena are definitely mis-identified, known aircraft. Another percentage are visual misconceptions of lights and their sources...and so on we go. Certainly hoaxes perpetrated by Earthlings play a percentage in our deductions.

The bottom line with absolutely no bias towards alien vehicles is simply that a percentage of visual events being witnessed by humans cannot be explained by exhaustive study to make a definitive conclusion. It should be just as interesting to scientific types that if people are not seeing alien vehicles in our atmosphere, WHAT are they seeing? If we identify and categorize all our evidence as mis-identified airplanes, clouds, atmospheric distortion of known lights etc., just WHAT is the percentage of unknowns?

What I find most credible is the fact that some of the very old men who saw things have made death bed statements of an extraordinary nature.

Back a long time ago anyone in the military if told to never say what they saw, EVER, would do so unquestioningly. My friend was in Nuke boats in the 1960s and still will not tell how deep they could dive though the information has been available for a long time. I was never told that I could say what countries our recon team penetrated in 1970 so I leave it with "those to the west and south of Vietnam."

50-60 years ago military men took their oaths seriously. So why would a B-29 pilot tell only his wife on his death bed that her saw the alien bodies loaded aboard his plane which he flew to Wright-Patterson AFB in 1947? Why would the Roswell base commander tell his childeren as he lay close to death that he "saw little people like us.....I just want to tell you so you will know we're not alone in the universe."

There are several of these, some captured on home video. The tellers knew they were close to death, had no need or wish for noteriety of monetary compensation. These men unburdening themselves from decades of pressure of knowledge certainly weren't liars so how do we categorize their testements? Should we dump them into the bottomless "unknown" label?

Cryptozoology is a whole 'nother thing Tom. The Panda was a "myth" until 1938 when a carcass was brought to civilization. New animals are found on a regular basis as big as small dogs in some cases and as small as insects- best left to another topic.

 

[deanglen]

No. Used to.

dean

 

[Fatdutchman]

I'm one of the few 13 so far that says "no".

Without wanting to delve too deeply, the modern belief in extraterrestrial life (especially meaning "more advanced" extraterrestrial life) to a great extent, is driven by man's desire to be "spiritual" without having to actually be spiritual. I understand the logical argument for the POSSIBILITY of extraterrestrial life, but the modern popular belief in the existence of ET is largely a modern religion; the desire for people to believe in something greater than themselves, but without having to feel responsible to it.



As for cryptozoology:
In just the last few years, scientists have "discovered" a previously "unknown" elephant living in Thailand (I think), with a large, mastadon-like hump back. An elephant!!!

 

[plain old dave]

We ARE the highest form of life in all of creation. This can be proved, but if I were to post it here the thread would be locked. Call me One of Fourteen.

 

[Samsa]

Without wanting to delve too deeply, the modern belief in extraterrestrial life (especially meaning "more advanced" extraterrestrial life) to a great extent, is driven by man's desire to be "spiritual" without having to actually be spiritual. I understand the logical argument for the POSSIBILITY of extraterrestrial life, but the modern popular belief in the existence of ET is largely a modern religion; the desire for people to believe in something greater than themselves, but without having to feel responsible to it.

That's an interesting perspective.... I'd be curious to hear a more in depth discussion on it.

 

[Story]

They're already heeeeeeeeeeeeere

Nope, not a bit. I won't believe in them little spacemen until a real not-from-this-planet flying saucer lands on my backyard. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, that's what I always say.

 

[Fatdutchman]

Only in America, ladies and gentlemen!

That's an interesting perspective.... I'd be curious to hear a more in depth discussion on it.

I think I best just leave it as it lays!

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

You seem to be an agnostic, Samsa! "You can't know so who cares." Still, you can be an agnostic believer or an agnostic unbeliever - and that is what the poll asked, after all.

 

[Brian Sheridan]

Here how I look at it. I believe that there is life somewhere out in the galaxy.

But do they fly in and visit us? Probably not. Why are the aliens always an advanced species?

My guess is that the UFO's are probably secret goverment weapons out for test flights.

But - who knows....

 

[Benny Holiday]

I'm one of the few 13 so far that says "no".

Without wanting to delve too deeply, the modern belief in extraterrestrial life (especially meaning "more advanced" extraterrestrial life) to a great extent, is driven by man's desire to be "spiritual" without having to actually be spiritual. I understand the logical argument for the POSSIBILITY of extraterrestrial life, but the modern popular belief in the existence of ET is largely a modern religion; the desire for people to believe in something greater than themselves, but without having to feel responsible to it.

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[MrPumpernickel]

...and I say that's hogwash. However, in any way one tries to argue against that is largely met with the same arguments repeated again, and that's somewhat annoying since there is no way to proove that someone is spiritual or not, and it's definitely harder to proove that one isn't.

I look at it the other way, many people who argue against extraterrestrials are afraid to look beyond their faith since if one prooves that extraterrestrials do indeed exist their entire dogma can start to fray at the edges. In other words, fear...and I think we all can remember what another (albeit fictional) extraterrestrial said about fear. Fear leads to...

If we speak conservatively, if the Milky Way has a billion stars and there are a million galaxies similar to the Milky Way, and only a small fraction of all those stars has planets, and only a fraction of a fraction of those planets can support life, and only a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of those planets actually develop live, which evolvs, there still are a pantsload of planets out there with some sort of extraterrestrial life. The question really isn't if it exists but rather how developed and well traveled (cosmically speaking) that life indeed is. It's simple math and probability.

(if my reply borders too much on topics that shouldn't be discussed here feel free to remove it)

 

[Benny Holiday]

In my experience, it's pretty easy to tell whether someone's spiritually minded or not. Those who aren't are most often the ones who are quick and vocal to criticise spiritual views and those who have them. These are the people who disparage the idea of religion in any form, but who will yet listen to the mumbo jumbo of spiritualists, mediums, astrologers or some other New Age performers, because these don't ask the person to be caring, understanding, charitable, or self-sacrificing, as religions do. Their message is that you can be self-serving and not give a hoot about anyone else, and there's a nice cosy afterlife waiting for you when you die in which you can continue the same as you did before.

There's no reason for anyone's faith to fray at the edges if extraterrestrials could be proven to exist. In fact, the Bible clearly states that they do. See the Book of Job, where the "sons of Heaven" meet with God in the first chapter. These are the leaders of the unfallen worlds. Adam should have been the representative of the Earth, but having gone against God's command in Eden not to eat the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, he handed over dominion to Satan who takes his place.

See also Gary Bates' book "Alien Instrusion" that deals with demonic deception and the role of malevolent spiritual forces in linking the occult with UFOs etc.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Interesting theories all, and very much like my own. I think that a great many of the more recent sightings of UFOs have been ultra-secret military vehicles. Something we got from Germany at the close of the second world war. The fact that they first appeared near the wars end as "Foo Fighters", and then in a considerable number of sightings just a few years after the war, seems to indicate that this may be the explanation for at least some, if not the majority, of UFOs. But given the probability of the vastness of the universe, I think it's a mathematical certainty that there is some form of life somewhere other than the earth. Could even be life on our neighboring planets for all we know.

 

[Samsa]

There's no reason for anyone's faith to fray at the edges if extraterrestrials could be proven to exist. In fact, the Bible clearly states that they do. See the Book of Job, where the "sons of Heaven" meet with God in the first chapter. These are the leaders of the unfallen worlds. Adam should have been the representative of the Earth, but having gone against God's command in Eden not to eat the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, he handed over dominion to Satan who takes his place.

This is not entirely correct. In Catholic doctrine, for instance, the existence of extraterrestrial life (salient, at least) would pose very real problems re: the unique and salvific role of Christ.

Your Biblical exegesis is also not something I've heard before. I'm not saying it's "wrong" but there are plenty of Protestants and Catholics who would not agree with your interpretation that the Bible "clearly" states that alien life is a reality.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Very true, Samsa. For myself though, and I don't say this to offend anyone else's beliefs and certainly not yours my friend, I only have an interest in what the actual Bible has to say.

A very dear friend of mine, a mentor, evangelist and recently retired pastor, Dino Mastromihalis, and I have had a lot of amazing discussions about the Bible and doctrine over the years. He, being a Greek, reads his New Testament from the original Greek, and he's also studied Hebrew extensively, which adds some great insights into different translations of the Bible (NIV, NKJ, RSV, etc) and the meanings and intentions of the authors.

The Bible mentions various orders of created beings. Angels (the word actually means 'messenger'), Heavenly beings, often appear to look like men. Other orders of Heavenly beings (or angels), such as Seraphim, have six wings and are adorned in precious stones (Ezekiel 28:13-14). Lucifer is described as having been covered in precious stones when he was created by God. Seraphim, according to Ezekiel 1:23, have four wings.

Also mentioned and connected with these beings are "winged creatures" and "living creatures", (see Revelation 5) and also, in Colossians 1:16, "For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities."
Who are these powers and authorities in heaven? Who are the "sons of heaven" (also translated "Sons of God") in Job 1?

Sons of God is also used in the Bible to refer to created beings (see Romans 8:14, 8:19 and 9:26, Galatians 3:26, & Galatians 4:6). So created beings assemble, in Job 1, before God in a council. They are residents of heaven, which is what? Another dimension, perhaps? A planet? A series of planets? A series of worlds in another dimension? As finite human beings, we don't know. But we know that those beings met with God and among them was a representative from our world, Satan, the accuser.

There are other beings watching to see what Satan's form of government tunrs out like, since he opposed God and took one third of the heavenly host with him in rebellion. He claims God's law is unjust & that God's a tyrant. satan has certainly shown the universe who the real tyrant is.

What do you think, Samsa?

 

[MrPumpernickel]

That's just the thing though, if we're going to argue faith versus science on the topic if extraterrestrials exist or not we might as well stop now, go outside and bang our heads against the nearest brick wall because that would be just as productive.

Faith, and especially religious faith, is unquantifiable and non-empirical. By definition it has to be that way since once something is proven it doesn't become faith, it becomes certinty. Science is the direct opposite. Therefore it's not even like arguing apples vs. pears, it's like arguing apples vs. guerrilla warfare in Sierra Leone.

Granted the proof that there is extraterrestrial life out there is more mathemathical than actual concrete evidence the chance is still so great it is pretty much a mathematical certinty.

I can agree that there is an element of faith in believing in extraterrestrials, though calling that an escape from religious (christian) faith because you don't have to be responsible for a higher power is rather insultive both to me as a person and to non-religious people in general. It would be the same as accusing Buddhists for the same, because Buddhism is a faith without dieties. Not to mention it's a vast oversimplified generalization. It may be like that to some people, but far from everyone.

If angels and such exist would they not be part of the spiritual plane rather than something extraterrestrial (if we set aside the chance that "God" indeed may be of alien origin to begin with)? I wouldn't personally lump in spiritual beings (whether they exist or not) in the same group as extraterrestrial aliens.

 

[HungaryTom]

Parallel threads

SCIENCE:

Life outside the Earth? – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendeleev with his http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table
That table is universal – the elements therein also (C, O, H, N, S, Si, Fe - just listed the most frequent we meet in organic chemistry), OK? Ah those Russians! :eusa_clap

The energy to facilitate chemical reactions is also lurking around everywhere.

Primordial soup also recreated by physicians – 4 yrs ago.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/4130/physicists_recreate_primordial_soup/index.html -Oh, those Americans! :eusa_clap

DNA, RNA and the transcription, translation are universal. Chemo-synthesis and photosynthesis are also universal.

Organic matter in outer space is also there-
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061130-meteorite.html - provided these meteorites just weren't falling back to the earth

Once organic material is there - what would stop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution from happening.

Startrek with spaceships - most probably not. Why? Don’t believe HungaryTom, just believe in that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/deepspace/wormholes/
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/strange/html/wormhole.html

Who would travel with spaceships (except for the stakeholders of spaceship industry) and below the speed of light if you see this.[huh]

Time travel:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/mysteries/html/kaku1-1.html

“In conclusion, don’t turn someone away who knocks at your door one day and claims to be your future great-great-great-granddaughter. She may be right.”
RIOT, you rule.

Once the E.T. guys arrive in area 51 or elsewhere, they will begin this thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition
‘As a result, several species less suited to compete for the resources may either adapt or die out. According to evolutionary theory, this competition within and between species for resources plays a critical role in natural selection.’

The scientific part ends here. Do you believe in it - my hat off to those loungers who know and understand all the stuff which was linked there...

This is how HungaryTom fears, yes fears the encounters with UFO spaceships – he doesn’t believe that he would be the winner with or without his fedora in the above listed competition against a higher developed organism – HungaryTom can not master wormholes and a lot more which they could if they arrive here. Maybe adapting to some slavery life

DIVINITY>
HungaryTom would also fear the encounter with UFO in this regard. Modern time encounters tell about being investigated, abducted or mutilated, soldiers confessing -ventillating the immense life-long pressure- on deathbeds, people suffering in therapy and depression. Is that what you really look for?

I never heard of modern post-encounter reports like the visions described in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch
or here>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse

the people just suffer from trauma.

PARADOX:
Assembling this post my belief did not tremble in God and in the Bible.
The Bible is not wikipedia, yellow pages, manufacturing guide, users manual, encyclopedia, opera menu, cookbook. It is the Bible.

I still like fedoras and free speech.

Tom

 

[RIOT]

“In conclusion, don’t turn someone away who knocks at your door one day and claims to be your future great-great-great-granddaughter. She may be right.”
RIOT, you rule.

I swear I had never read this article before. Thanks for posting that link.

It's good to know that I am not a complete loon after all with this "class fieldtrip" theory.

 

[Jerekson]

As stated earlier, if the "class fieldtrip" theory is correct, at least it means the human race has a distant future