Behold, I give you...The cup.

[Seb Lucas]

Diver, from the amount of heightened words you've spent on this item so far, I am reminded of just how much easier it was to be excited by the provenance of an object before the internet. Although I may be way older than you.

 

[Dumpster Diver]

This would be Provincence alright if it indeed belongs to Desmond Hughes, Sadly...Im not turning up Google hits or anything for a Flight Officer A.E. Hughes.

I would have to move mountains to find answers at this point just like the old days.

If not Desmond, then SOMEONE, and they need me to identify them!


Remember before the internet...


There was a comedian who expressed that (and Im paraphrasing) the question; where was Garth Brooks born.

Before the internet you might have to really ask lots of people, 6 months may pass and You JUST wouldnt know. Then one day you walk by a woman wearing a garth brooks shirt and she tells you...then suddenly theres a huge overflow of endorphins from the *Eureka* moment at long last having found your Answer simply by chance out in the wild.

I tend to feel more like Tuco Ramirez in this scene right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn2xSNv0TSk

 

[Smithy]

What if A.E. Is his First initials, and its F(slash) O. for flight officer hughes then!!!! COULD BE!!! Im going to search this and see if It turns up.

Although more unusual as aircrew usually didn't write their rank on service kit, it wasn't entirely unheard of. It was often common in WWII British military parlance to put the initials after the surname.

That's certainly a more probable explanation.

 

[Dumpster Diver]

Although more unusual as aircrew usually didn't write their rank on service kit, it wasn't entirely unheard of. It was often common in WWII British military parlance to put the initials after the surname.

That's certainly a more probable explanation.

Right...There *IS* a Flight Officer Hughes E.A. Listed in the RAF index. theres more than one E.A. Hughes for that matter.

I guess it was fun while it lasted.

Thank you for helping me figure it out.

(why I didnt remember that military abbreviations are surname first then First two initials in the first place...like a pair of Dogtags, or do I have that backwars...Is It first initial surname then full last name..hm, my brain feels like mush at this point.)

:eusa_doh:

Well, If you guys want to suggest how I should go about tracking down this pilot, Im all ears.

Smithy, to your Cred. Im in your debt for working this out with me.

Apologies if anyone is disapointed or annoyed with me for getting it wrong I guess, Im far from perfect, and this is Just flaunting the imperfection isnt it.

still really exciting, and I wouldnt have discovered people like Desmond Hughes.

SO.

This aint over yet.

I have to pick up the trail from here, were still in the game as far as Im concerned.

But youre probly Right, It would Just be too good to be true wouldnt it.

 

[PADDY]

Research...along with taking blind allys and red herrings is a labour of love that can give life to a rollercoaster of emotions, but as long as its interesting, educational and FUN...

NICE CC jacket for the winter! I'm on the cusp of getting mine out for the season!

 

[Dumpster Diver]

*Laughs* boy Ive been waiting for you to chime in on this Paddy...you time it like a true Fedora lounge Vet.

You can give me a bit of a break for not seeing that The First initials are more likely F.O. Than F.D.

Like a subltle mistake of BIBLICAL proportions, Lost in Time and translation.

come on, anyone could have missed that, smithy pointed out the fact that Liberators and Ireland DOES Resonate something with Coastal command Issue IRvins Rather than Fighter command, that got me doing a little more reading, and put it together that F*slash*O is *Flight officer* and his initials are after his last name. Its still nothing I can confirm as of yet.

Truth be told, now that the internet has been brought into this, My mom got me going in the direction once her Iphone turned up Desmond Hughes. I Just have a typewriter on my Desk and Was under the correct instinct- this had* too good to be true* written all over it, knowing my Luck. I wasnt in a position to realize F.D. was FO for flight officer...because E.A. could have been something else rank related.

I dont blame my mom or the Iphone for sending me out in high spirits on a wild goose chase.

Just some worn letters.

The REAL REAL Truth is this;

It was too easy to find F.D. hughes, and that was Just too easy.


*************I know in my life the reward is never greater than the amount of work I have to put into something!!!!**************



As for your CC Irvin Paddy..I would love to see it.

Im suprised and taken back that you wear yours still, please Take special Care of it for me please!

Its one of those Jackets that belongs back in production for this very reason.

I want to get one into production, but Thats another mountain to move, for another battle to come.


please Look after yours like its priceless even if you feel the need to use it.

You will *never* know what It could say if it could ever speak, unless in your case you DO know the history of your CC irvin... in that event you must tell me everything!

anyway this is Just beggining.


I *could* bring myself to wear this Jacket, but The way I wear em is to wear em out.

For this purpose I have recruited other Repro Jackets without any provinence of any kind, exept the kind of provinence I, myself create.
Im still sticking to what I said about this guy having a dog or a pet of some kind, and he smoked, drank, hardly slept...and was a good pilot.

 

[Dumpster Diver]

Here is an E.A. Hughes (Flight Engineer) who was shot down and taken POW.

Date of Death: 30 January 1944.
Source:
AWM 64 1/342 (1) AWM 237 (63) (64) NAA : A705, 166/17/464.
W R Chorley : RAF Bomber Command Losses of the Second World War : Page 69,
Volume 1944.
Aircraft Type: Lancaster
Serial number: JA 973
Radio call sign: JO – O
Unit: 463 Sqn RAAF
Summary:
Lancaster JA973 took off from RAF Waddington at 1724 hours on the night of 30/31st
January 1944 to bomb Berlin. Nothing was heard from the aircraft after take off and it did
not return to base. Fourteen aircraft from the Squadron took part in the raid and four of
these including JA973 failed to return.
Crew:
RAAF 415528 PO Hanson, P E Captain (Pilot)
RAF Sgt M A Stevens, (Navigator)
RAF Flt Sgt G E Edgecombe, (Bomb Aimer)
RAF Sgt L Bowes (Wireless Operator Air Gunner)
RAF Sgt E A Hughes, (Flight Engineer)
RAF Sgt N Bligh (Air Gunner)
RAAF 424315 Flt Sgt J M M Wilson, (Air Gunner)
Following post war enquiries it was believed that the aircraft crashed at Repente, a small
village north east of the Grosser Zecchlinersee, 12kms south of Mirow. Sgt Hughes
(RAF) was a POW and the six other members were killed.
PO Hanson, Sgt Bligh and Flt Sgt Wilson are buried in the Berlin 1939-1945 War
Cemetery. The other three members are listed as missing and their names are
commemorated on the Memorial to the Missing, Runnymede, Surrey, UK.
In a 1947 report by the No4 Missing Research and Enquiry Unit, it reported “parts of the
aircraft were discovered on the shore of Zecchlinersee near the village of Repente. A
local resident stated that the aircraft fell into the lake at night after an explosion in the air
and the fuselage, wing and engine was in the lake about 1.5 miles north west of Repente.
The turret fell away before the aircraft hit the water.”


But I dont think thats him if its F(light) O(fficer) E.A. Hughes...plus it says Lancaster, not Liberator, and Waddington.

What do you think.

 

[Dumpster Diver]

Im going to check through this, maybe its as close as I can get for the time being;

http://www.number59.com/new_59/liberator.html

(Just put Liberators and Ireland in the Key search and get that.)

Im not in Disapointed per-se.

But Truly Challenged.

I want my answers, This feels like my own war I have to fight now.

 

[thor]

I love a good history mystery. Keep us posted DD.

 

[Dumpster Diver]

Ive written to the Owner of this website:

http://www.number59.com/new_59/homepage.html

This is the apex for now, or until I find another angle.

If purchase dates tell me anything about WWII Jackets, it gives me aproximate timeline to its original owners passing on. (Homes go, along with their things sometimes)

so it goes.

I could maybe find him in the obituary, and get some contact through that to the family members who he is survived by, This would be something Ive never done.


something Else Ive never done is really introduce this Jacket;

The Most Fabulous, the Legendary...GREM!





This was purchased in 2001-2002

in Ontario.

I think The owner retired it after the war and it was hung up and got fragile.

Its display only, Im restoring it a bit.

I think his Nickname was GREM, I cant find a photo or name of the plane. (I always though It would be GREM)

Theres a Jacket on the internet I Just saw in my search with RED in Yellow on the back, same deal, Some guys nickname.

This has to be common practice amongst these Air crews Because of all the same guys with same names.

Joe, Dave Jim, Fred, Bill etc.

You need something to distinguish from one another, and Call them out FAST!

Another small Drop in the Million to One Clue bucket.


You see, I already have my Cup in hand.

 

[nick123]

Could it be "E.R. Hughes"?
Google "e.r. Hughes RAF". The first result shows a site (you need to register) mentioning RAF East Kirkby.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_East_Kirkby

 

[Horace Debussy Jones]

Grem,...could it be short for Gremlin?
I know how frustrating these records searches can be. I had a half-great uncle,..(for lack of better description of our relationship) who was gassed in world war one and never recovered. He was my grandfather's step brother as his mother had remarried after my great grandfather passed away. I might just have to get back into Ancestry .com again and see what I can dig up. It gets so difficult once you get back past your grand parents, more and more people show up in the mix and it becomes mind boggling! :eeek:

 

[Smithy]

DD, if you want to research there's a number of options.

Chances are that the fellow who had your CC Irvin was either with CC or the FAA.

Remember that 59 wasn't the only squadron operating B-24s with CC (if indeed he was on them).

Service records for RAF personnel during WWII are still held by the RAF and have not yet been released to the National Archives, although the ORBs (Operational Record Book) for nearly all squadrons are available for download for a price.

You could also search the London Gazette. Officers promotions and any awards were gazetted in this publication.

Two sites that you might wish to post a query on are:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/index.php

You have to register to post on these but I highly recommend these. I'm a member on both and have used them extensively in researching info about family members and topics of interest.

HTH,

Tim

 

[Dumpster Diver]

Grem,...could it be short for Gremlin?
I know how frustrating these records searches can be. I had a half-great uncle,..(for lack of better description of our relationship) who was gassed in world war one and never recovered. He was my grandfather's step brother as his mother had remarried after my great grandfather passed away. I might just have to get back into Ancestry .com again and see what I can dig up. It gets so difficult once you get back past your grand parents, more and more people show up in the mix and it becomes mind boggling! :eeek:

Yes Absolutely GREM is short for Gremlin, Again with the pilots shortening everything to speak fast over the intercom to me!!! haha.

Looks Like we got a Grem on the Left wing maties!!!!

you know the supserstitions of the supernatural amongst the airmen, little green horned Gremlins that account for all the un-explainable faults in their aircrafts.

raise the point most of them all carried some sort of Lucky charm or keepsake for protection against the ultra spiritual realm which inherantly crosses the threshold of Reality at one point or another. Keeping bad luck at bay, and putting chance in their favour.


I think everyone owes smithy, because what if I was some other guy who Still went and sold this thing off as FD Hughes Jacket for the price of a Lotto ticket to some poor Joker. all the more reason to get to the bottom of this.

The seller wrote to me and confirmer the person who sold it to them got it through the actual Family and indeed flew Liberators from Ireland.

Thats the ringer there.

Hopefully they are able to put me in with the other other seller...in turn they put connect me with the Fam.

This is one favour that must be done...I think you can see why.


Thank you for the good replies everyone.

 

[nick123]

Page 20 mentions an "E.A. Hughes":
https://www.awm.gov.au/catalogue/research_centre/pdf/rc09125z013_1.pdf
Under "Geoffrey Slater" is listed an "E.R. Hughes":
http://lancasterwarmemorials.org.uk/memorials/lancasterwwii-s.htm

 

[Smithy]

Page 20 mentions an "E.A. Hughes":
https://www.awm.gov.au/catalogue/research_centre/pdf/rc09125z013_1.pdf
Under "Geoffrey Slater" is listed an "E.R. Hughes":
http://lancasterwarmemorials.org.uk/memorials/lancasterwwii-s.htm

Nick,

The problem with these are that those are Bomber Command personnel who would almost certainly not have been issued a CC Irvin. These Irvins were virtually the sole preserve of aircrew operating maritime aircraft with either CC or the FAA.

My money is on this having belonged to an aircrew member on one of the anti-submarine or long range maritime reconnaissance squadrons, almost certainly not Fighter Command or Bomber Command.

 

[Dumpster Diver]

Could it be "E.R. Hughes"?
Google "e.r. Hughes RAF". The first result shows a site (you need to register) mentioning RAF East Kirkby.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_East_Kirkby

Yes, It *Could* very well be E.*R*. hughes.

He was taken POW It says, and was Flight Engineer.

If I can confirm this, then I think that would settle it.

It now could Simply depend on the Name and letters. or if The seller is able to put me in touch with the fam and confirm his POW status...or if he was promoted to Flight officer.


Right now Im dead on my feet writing all night here to be honest with you.

-------hang on to your seats----------------dont know when I will be reporting back by.

 

[Dumpster Diver]

Nick,

The problem with these are that those are Bomber Command personnel who would almost certainly not have been issued a CC Irvin. These Irvins were virtually the sole preserve of aircrew operating maritime aircraft with either CC or the FAA.

My money is on this having belonged to an aircrew member on one of the anti-submarine or long range maritime reconnaissance squadrons, almost certainly not Fighter Command or Bomber Command.

I did see those links, and was my first guess actually before FD Hughes, but this is true E.R. Hughes was Bomber Command.

On the hood I saw an A. or an R. But Im more leaning towards A...again I have to get some photos of the lettering posted up.

 

[Dumpster Diver]

Diver, from the amount of heightened words you've spent on this item so far, I am reminded of just how much easier it was to be excited by the provenance of an object before the internet. Although I may be way older than you.

Ive only sat on the Desmond Hughes cloud for a good 24 hours, while the knowledge of the internet can be helpful, its a double edged sword, it can deflate quickly.


In this case the fall is worth the rush. the jacket not belonging to F.D. hughes changes nothing for me personally.

I wouldnt have sold this Jacket for all the time in the world just the same.

 

[GriffDeLaGriff]

I also emailed the owner of that homepage about my grandfather whos Irvin I have and he was a navigator and they usually flew nighmissions. I could never find his name in the records tho, wierd.
I also have the pants that are in really good condition.

Bugs me that I cant find his name. Dad used to say he was in this mission when they got lost (lol not good when you are the navigator) and it was cloudy, and when the clouds disapeared they saw a big fleet that werent where is was supposed to be, and they could go back and tell the others and it helped alot with this information.

Here are my grandfathers, and it also pops up some more information in the thread.
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/show...ginal-1938-39-Royal-airforce-Jacket-and-pants