Do you believe in little green men?

[RIOT]

Here's hoping. As long as we do not evolve in to this. lol

 

[Twitch]

Yeah MrPumpernickel- I have absolutely no spiritual sense regarding the probability of life in the universe. I find it completely offensive that anyone suggests possible alien contact is in any way a substitute for God, religion or spiritual beliefs. In the cold clinical world of science and mathamatics the numbers are overwhelmingly favorable that life exists somewhere besides Earth.

If the estimate of probability of 1 million technological societies existing given the sift down from the higher numbers of possiblities, then some would be behind us and some would be ahead of us. The statistical probability that more would be ahead is heavy since we are in our industrial-technological infancy. With the probability of many, many others being just 1,000 years ahead of us we need only to look back the same measure in our history and realize how "alien" today's tech would be to folks in 1007.

Could civilizations in other reaches of this galaxy or another galaxy possess additional basic elements that are alien to us that might provide completely different power sources? Of course. Could a civilization 100,000 years more advanced have mastered travel through the cosmos in a completely alien way to our scientific dictums? Certainly.

When we take any number or random events in any field- UFO sightings, auto accidents, shark bite fatalities- we have a body of statistics to work with that ultimately are categorized. Las Vegas makes big money giving odds on random events after analysing the statistical probabilities of possible outcomes. It is still math. Even if there are only 5% that end up as unknown it doesn't mean that this 5% is able to be labled according to viewpoints of those reviewing the studies. Unknown means unknown. And leaning to a deduction that evidence of something is 95% this or that doesn't negate the 5% of possiblities.

The lottery odds are against everyone of us with staggering probabilities against our winning yet someone always wins with far less than a 5% chance.

If the ubiquitous and continual UFO activities have nothing to do with alien visitors in vehicles there is, what should be a very interesting phenomena at work that science should want to study, yet it is being dismissed completely. Could the alleged witnessing and filming of aerial alien vehicles be manufactured by our inner minds somehow? Could it be some human collective sub-conscience at work? It would be amazingly interesting if one of those were the cause but since anything relating to UFOs at any level is dismissed we'll never know.

I can entertain no logical reason why a group of 88 year old ex-military officers who had been involved in an incident 60 years earlier then had no contact with one another would make duplicate and startling revelations as they lay dying regarding what they saw and did in said incident. Certainly it "proves" nothing but testimony from any of these respected officers in a court of law would probably result in a defendent's guilty verdict.

No one has all the answers but the answers are out there. We have to seek them out in an unbiased scientific manner. Being biggoted in any course of endeavour or study of any subject will taint the conclusions. When we can find an open-minded venue to perform the tests and draw the conculsions we may find something out.

Certain subjects- and UFO stuff is one of them- are point by point illustrations of Rod Serling's "The Monsters are Due on Maple Street." We're afraid of what we don't know, what we imagine and even the dark itself! We fear that we will become unglued to some degree of some impactfull revelation such as the existance of alien civilization were to occur. Yet we've been rushing towards that moment since we 1st stood on 2 legs in the savanahs a few million years ago. We have searched for the next tribe over the mountain, the new country across the sea and logically the other probable habitants of the universe.

 

[HungaryTom]

Riot,

I never intend to question your honesty. Why should you read articles about wormholes? I never read that article before, either. I just daydreamed a lot of time travel as a child and eventually read some novels on time travel. -Who hasn’t? It is a proof that both of us are loons and now we have a fellow scientist loon.
I just come across that article when I put the word ’wormhole’ in Google.
„Research” is so ’easy’ nowadays: until a certain depth you find really everything on the web. Internet was originally designed for universities, to share knowledge, wasn’t it?
And after a certain depth people don’t post their stuff there –since others would simply steal their hardly earned results and publish it as their own. The billions of laymen wouldn’t understand that anyway and who in the heck searches deliberately for pages written with higher maths or quantum mechanics that seem like hyeroglyphs... In-depth information is available in books and libraries for reasons.
Science (natural and social) is so much advanced and specialized that even specialists can’t understand and follow-up each other from two different branches.There are millions of scientific publications appearing each year – it is mission impossible to follow-up (reproduce the research, all the decades-long trials maybe?) not to mention to understand, remember and make all that knowledge your own.
How should the average (non-scientist) people understand it at all?
If a scientist stands in front of the camera and says ’it is proven’ – you must simply TRUST that it is proven as a simple mortal or be another scientist with the same/similar direction to UNDERSTAND.

Consequently you MUST BELIEVE also in science, not only in divinity or arts-even if you are not a spiritual or religiuos or idealist guy.

Back to time travel theory:
I would like to save my little wormhole from some unholy/alien investigations- so I really hope that it is just really time travels by our own great-grandkids.

 

[Samsa]

What do you think, Samsa?

First, I certainly didn't take offense to your original post; but my B.A. is in Catholic Theology, so I am almost always eager to jump into theological discussions, even if theology comes in peripherally (as it does here). I also do not mean to offend anyone with this post.

That said, I must reiterate that my theological training was firmly rooted in the Catholic tradition, which as you are no doubt aware approaches Scripture in a much different way than Protestants do. You seem to indicate that you are a "sola scriptura" Christian, so we would probably not be able to see eye to eye on much of anything, let alone debate exegesis. One of my intellectual misgivings about Protestantism in general is this: there is one Bible, and hundreds and thousands of people believe it to say very different things on any number of topics. Each of them, of course, believe that they (or their pastors, as the case may be) have read and understood the Bible under inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

As to the particular passages you cite, I shall try to do my best, but I no longer have quick and easy access to a full theological library. That said:

1. I do not consider the orders of angels to be extraterrestrial life for purposes of this discussion. Angels, unlike men, are pure spirit (that is, they have no corporeal body). They are able to manifest themselves to men in various forms; that accounts for descriptions of angels adorned with jewels.

2. Revelation 5: I see nothing here to support Biblical teaching on extraterrestrial life. This book is the most confusing in the Bible, and most of the scholarship I have encountered (in Catholic circles) see it as a coded commentary on the time when John was writing it; not a doomsday prophecy as many Protestants of the Fundamentalist variety are wont to read it.

3. Colossians 1:16: This simply lists part of the hierarchy of angels. Here is an excerpt from St. Gregory the Great:

We know on the authority of Scripture that there are nine orders of angels, viz., Angels, Archangels, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Dominations, Throne, Cherubim and Seraphim. That there are Angels and Archangels nearly every page of the Bible tell us, and the books of the Prophets talk of Cherubim and Seraphim. St. Paul, too, writing to the Ephesians enumerates four orders when he says: 'above all Principality, and Power, and Virtue, and Domination'; and again, writing to the Colossians he says: 'whether Thrones, or Dominations, or Principalities, or Powers'. If we now join these two lists together we have five Orders, and adding Angels andArchangels, Cherubim and Seraphim, we find nine Orders of Angels.​

4. Job 1: Again, I do not have access to a Biblical commentary, nor to a theological library (except my own), but it seems fairly obvious to me that "sons of God" here means simply angels.

5. Romans 8:14 This passage reads "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Given the context of this individual verse, I have no idea how one would read anything about alien life into it.

6. Romans 9:26: This is really just a quote from the book of Hosea; St. Paul is simply using this quote to show that God has called the Gentiles as well as the Jews; hence "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God." Again, look at the context of the verse: the section it appears in has absolutely nothing to do with aliens or other creations of God. It has more to do with salvation history.

7. Galatians 3:26/4:6: Again, simply look at the context. St. Paul is saying that we were once under the law (i.e., the Mosaic law), but are now under Christ (we are "sons of God.") In 4:6 he is simply elaborating on this theme.

As to heaven: the Bible is pretty scarce on details, but from what is mentioned in it heaven is a physical place (as those who are lucky enough to make end up with glorified bodies). As to where it is? Your guess is as good as mine.

All that being said, look at Genesis. If extraterrestrial life were part of God's creation, and if the Bible is all that we have to inform us as to the creation, then Genesis is incomplete at best. It says nothing of creating life on other planets, or in "the heavens."

 

[Fatdutchman]

Whoo, now I KNOW I don't want to say anymore!!!

 

[Samsa]

Whoo, now I KNOW I don't want to say anymore!!!

Why's that?

 

[Benny Holiday]

That's great Samsa, while we have widely differing views on many things I respect those differences and your view and am glad to be able to hear your learned opininos and learn your perspective on these matters. What I state is simply what my own studies have led me to believe and were we ever able to sit down and talk face to face, I know I'd have a great time discussing theology with you.

I must clarify and say that I use the term 'extraterrestrial life' when referring to the angels, heavenly host, etc in quite a loose format. I'm just expositing the idea that, in a sense, these being could be viewed as 'extra-terrestrials' of a fashion. This was simply in response to the idea that physical evidence of extratrerrestrial life would necesarrily render religous faith of no account.

By the passages in Romans, Colossians etc I was meaning to say that the "Sons of God" referred to men as created beings and thus Job 1 refers to other created beings in Heaven (ie, angels) as separate to Jesus as The Son of God.

A couple of questions to ponder: Yes, Heaven is described as a physical place (not a bunch of clouds where disembodied spirits play harps!), so, if God upholds the universe by a series of consistent laws (gravity, electromagnetics, etc), is it possible that Heaven is a planet? Or perhaps a series of planets? And, were the angels and orders of heavenly powers created at the same time as our universe (or solar system?). Scripture seems to indicate that other heavenly realms and beings existed before mankind, as in Psalm 8:4 & 5, "What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honour." And also in Job 38:7, where God talks about the "morning stars" singing together and the angels shouting for joy when He created the world.

If these angels and heavenly beings were already inexistence, and Heaven is a physical place, is it not possible that they inhabited their own worlds?

Hey FDM, get back in this discussion! lol

 

[Fatdutchman]

Because I know I will not be able to discuss the nature and location of Heaven, the authority of Scripture, alien life (or lack thereof), the nature of the universe, nor Protestantism and Catholocism without making several people quite livid. Not to mention the jeers and name calling that will be hurled by the humanists. I probably already said too much in my first post....this sort of thing just gets me all riled up, and it really does nothing to further the Kingdom of God. It is not my place, nor is it even possible for me, to convince anyone of the truth. I can present the truth, but arguing it is pointless. Conviction is God's arena.

But...

Benny, You have convinced me to go a LITTLE further in explanation of my beliefs...

One can assume that "Heaven" is outside the universe. The universe is spherical in nature, and yes, Earth is at (or at least very near) the center. While God existed before creation, Heaven, and presumably angels, did not, since "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". I do not know at what point angels and whatever other heavenly servants of God were created. Maybe the first day, maybe the second, maybe the third. There is no biblical indication that I know of.

I personally do not think Heaven contains planets as such, and probably does not operate under the same physical laws as does the universe. The universe is (possibly) separated from Heaven by "the waters above". This is currently probably the most widely held theory of the universe and it's beginnings within creation science today. Mostly thanks to the work of Dr. Russell Humphries, a physicist who has come up with a "white hole" theory of the creation of the universe, which explains many things, including the amount of time required for light to travel great distances. (go to www.answersingenesis.org and search for his name, and you will probably find a good deal of information, including his publication "Starlight and Time"). The older "vapor canopy" model of pre-flood earth is now not so widely held. As Dr. Humphries points out, the "waters above" still exist, and were not dumped upon the Earth in the deluge, according to one Psalm (which I cannot recall at this instant). It is presumed that the "waters above" are now a thin layer of ice crystals, obviously given the temperature in space...or lack of it!

While it certainly would be possible for God to have created many worlds with life, even sentient life, I don't believe He did so. There is NO indication in Scripture for such, and if He did create other beings somewhere else, I think it would diminish the specialness of man. Christ died for mankind, not for Orkin kind...(nanu nanu) how much more special can you get?

In my initial post, I said that I do understand the position that many people hold that there might be other life in the universe. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. From the humanist perspective, this is most logical. Mathematically it almost has to be so. And, when I spoke of it being a substitute religion, for many, it really is. People actually make "pilgrimmages" to Roswell, NM, and they truly believe with all their hearts that there are aliens, and, necessarily, that they are superior to us, and that oh, if only they saw us worthy of being contacted, how much we could learn... For these people, it truly is a religion...but a religion without responsibilities (or rewards). People have an inherent desire for something spiritual, but.... You see, a god (pick a god, any god) is a very unpalateable proposition. A god requires devotion. A god requires obedience. By nature (man's fallen nature), people simply don't want that. Now, if there was a god, or "something higher" that didn't require obedience....hmmm, if only you could find such a thing, then bammo, you got your innate spiritual requirement filled with no pesky rules to have to follow.

As for UFO sightings, alien visitations, etc., I think that mostly they all will fall into certain categories. First, just plain old mistaken identity. Stars and planets and airplanes mistaken for alien spacecraft. I would say that this makes up the VAST majority of "alien" sightings. I think probably even "UFOlogists" would agree.

Secondly, mental illness, either chronic or temporary. I have seen reports where "alien abductions" have been fairly well explained by a well-known, but perhaps not common condition (the name of which I don't recall), where a person who is asleep will have a certain level of brainwave activity, which can cause them to awaken, but not fully, and their bodies will be paralyzed. The brainwave patterns, and brain chemicals will cause an overwhelming feeling of anxiety and fear, the subconscious takes care of the rest. What one sees during these attacks (which have been reproduced, at least partially, in the laboratory) depends upon what one is conditioned to see. In Japan, the condition is known as "Old Hag Syndrome", and the affected person will feel paralyzed and they will see an old witch holding them down and doing horrible things to them. In the West, people see "the grays", since that is what they have been conditioned to expect to see (by the way, back in the '50's, people who saw "aliens" almost universally described them as lizard-like. It wasn't until after the movie "Close Encounters" that people really began to see thin, large headed humanoid aliens, which have now morphed into the familiar black-eyed "grays".)

Thirdly, when people see odd lights and craft in the sky, they may well actually be seeing unusual craft....vehicles or other things built by governments produced for various nefarious reasons.

Fourthly, is downright fraud. Crop circles is the most ready example.

Lastly, I do think that possibly at least some of the alien contacts are actually demonic encounters. Demons know that aliens "sell" these days, so that's what they go with. They will do these things just for kicks.

Well, there you have it. My belief on the subject of aliens in a nutshell.

"Duty is ours, results are God's" -- John Quincy Adams.

Peace
[angel]

 

[akaBruno]

Since we are being Transcendental here...

Until man can travel through the infinite universe at faster that the speed of light... We'll never know.

Bruno

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

I like to keep as open a mind as I can with such subjects as this, because of the fact that there is so much we simply do not know for certain. [huh]
I think these phenomena come from several of the sources postulated, or perhaps all of them.... and then again maybe all those theories are wrong??? lol
All I know for certain is that there is something out there causing at least part of the sightings we hear about, and of course some are all hoax.

 

[Samsa]

But...

Benny, You have convinced me to go a LITTLE further in explanation of my beliefs...

Glad you were persuaded to chime in! I, for one, am not livid after reading your post.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Me neither! Just think, if we discuss our ideas and what we've read and looked into with each other, we might learn something about one other and even be inspired to think and investigate our ideas and thoughts further!
I figure if I can't learn something from you thinkers on the FL (where people actually do put some thought into their views and standpoints and not just go along with whatever's popular at the moment), then I'm really in trouble! lol

 

[Fatdutchman]

Many thanks and well wishes for all.

How come we don't have a "thumbs up" smiley here?

I think I'll use this one...I've never used it before:

:kick:

Hey wait, look! < He's green!

I believe in Wookies.

 

[Nashoba]

I just think the universe is awfully big. And we'd be awfully arrogant to think that we're the only intelligent ones in it....

 

[Benny Holiday]

Many thanks and well wishes for all.

How come we don't have a "thumbs up" smiley here?

I think I'll use this one...I've never used it before:

:kick:

Hey wait, look! < He's green!

I believe in Wookies.

That reminds me . . . Yoda is little and green! lol

 

[Fatdutchman]

Star Wars is the greatest thing that ever happened since, since...since ice cream!

"I'm not afraid"
"Oh, you will be...you will be."

 

[Phil]

Ever since the forties with the appearance of "flying saucers", foo fighters, and that incident at Roswell NM, there has been much speculation, (to say the least) as to the existance of, or at the least the possibillity of the existance of extraterrestrial life.
Now I see this,...
What do y'all think?

YES!!! THANK YOU!!! None of my freinds believe me when I say the Foo Fighters were a government organization before the band!:eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[Benny Holiday]

Star Wars is the greatest thing that ever happened since, since...since ice cream!

"I'm not afraid"
"Oh, you will be...you will be."

Absolutely! And in my book, ice cream's very high on the list of favourite things, too!

 

[Doh!]

For what it's worth, Ronald Reagan hoped for alien contact:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds_wGxndT0Y&eurl=

Of course, any invaders advanced enough to travel to Earth from outer space would probably fry our butts without much effort.

 

[Twitch]

Maj. Nick sez- "I like to keep as open a mind as I can with such subjects as this, because of the fact that there is so much we simply do not know for certain."

Exactly. When we become so pompous as to presume we collectively lose our objectivity.

"I think these phenomena come from several of the sources postulated, or perhaps all of them.... and then again maybe all those theories are wrong???"

The spectrum of sources is finite with the final undefinable as "unknown."

"All I know for certain is that there is something out there causing at least part of the sightings we hear about, and of course some are all hoax."

The fact that the astro-sciences today have a concensus that there is almost assuredly life in the known universe and most probably sentient life. If someone is quoting sources from 15 years ago they are outdated since all the several dozen planets known have been descovered and observed since then along with massive amounts of intergalactic knowledge gleaned from Hubble.

To conclude that we are probably alone is contrary to the sum of our knowledge and probability studies fed by new information of the universe. It's tantamount to clinging to the belief that the world was flat after it was circumnavigated for 100 years.