Do any of you guys follow any type of hat etiquette?

[jlee562]

These statements beg the question: In a given situation, if no one present perceives your actions or inactions as rude or ill-mannered, are they still rude or ill-mannered?

In my experience etiquette and manners only exist if they are recognized and acknowledged by another person (or persons); otherwise, they are nothing more than meaningless gestures. To be clear, I am not saying anyone should dispense with such etiquette if they feel it is proper to follow it's guidelines; merely that one should not react negatively if others do not acknowledge his/her adherence to such.

This is exactly what I am talking about. If there is no offense taken, the action is not offensive, it is only an action.

Other than citing hat etiquette, nobody can ever explain why such actions are inherently and objectively 'rude' in such a context. I would love to hear that reasoning explained...

 

[alanfgag]

Which has been my point all along. Just because people refuse to show consideration for others doesn't dissolve the concept.

And TVs in restaurants is just exhibit 1,634 of how the world has gone to hell in a handbasket.

I'm not sure that kids using every waking moment to communicate with their friends and family via text message show less caring and consideration than kids sitting at the dinner table silently with their hands folded over the napkin in their lap. Remote methods of communication (texts and emails) have spawned a development of language and style that sometimes seem rude to old fogies (I admit to be irked by emails address to Alan:). Manners and etiquette are styles set in a particular place and time, often developed or enforced by institutions of power (religion, school, military, employer,etc.) rather by an interest in caring. Human values like caring and consideration for others remain treasured and timeless. I love when they pleasantly surprise us in people we've written off for violating our sense of rules or our particular comfort zones.

 

[winter_joe]

I agree with Alan here im a "new" generation adult here, born in 1990. And I take my hat off when in a restaurant, or doctors office, or when I step into sometimes house then I ask politely if I could set my hat down in said house. I just don't like the fact that we get blamed as a whole to the reason why it's not how it "used" to be, that steadily changed through the decades, since the sixties in fact. I even have table manners I don't rest my elbows on the table, don't touch my phone until I leave the table and wait patiently and even have conversation with the person or persons still eating. Just my thought on the matter at hand.

 

[gtdean48]

Women's Lib & Sexual Harassment have changed the rules of "manners". No way I'd pull out a chair for a female at a meeting or stand when one enters or leaves the room as I was brought up to do. Tipping my hat is relatively the same thing. I learned manners from my grandparents & parents but corporate America put a stop to lots of my behavior. Yes, I open doors for women & don't start eating until everybody is served at the table..."manners" are generational. Somethings are spelled out like removing your hat & placing your hand over your heart during the National Anthem, published in the Flag Code. Remember, chewing gum publicly was considered bad manners, now it is encouraged to eliminate bad breath!

 

[memphislawyer]

I have enjoyed reading many of the threads here, and especially admire the writings of JLee. I think it is great that many here want to do the right thing and try to subscribe to some sort of etiquette. I presume that this was easier to do in the 30's and 40's as many men wore hats, not just real working cowboys, but men going off to mills, or to the office. It was easier to emulate etiquette through osmosis, as there was more to observe with regard to hat wearing and perceive decorum, and men were more apt to say something to young boys and you men about behavior. Try that today, correcting someone else's child and see what happens? I am 53, and I would get whipped by my dad (well, verbal lashing and maybe a quick tough pat on the bottom) if I even had to be corrected by a neighbor.

This thread reminds me of the movie, The American President, if I recall the title correctly, with Michael Douglass as the president, where he was responding to the character, Bob Rumsfeld, in saying that in running a campaign, you harken back to a period of time in the not too distant past, and reminisce about the mores and times of that era, and try to extrapolate it into the present.

My wife constantly tells me when she thinks that wearing a hat is wrong, and I tell her that I have come to this website to try to find out when it is right and wrong, and she tells me she cares not what is posted here - to her, it just seems inappropriate or wrong. She has great taste and a sense of decorum, so I can not see where she is wrong. I see a couple other attorneys with hats (ok, I see attorneys with them more than landscapers) but I am known at the courthouse counter for wearing my fedoras. I do not have many men to be mentored by on such situations, and because there are no other attorneys with a fedora when I go to the courthouse, I can not tell if they wear them in the halls or not, or in elevators. I read that public spaces usually proscribe that a hat being worn is acceptable, but then again, I think when I enter the building at my church, not just the sanctuary, I take my hat off. Yet as an usher, I see boys (younger than 18) wearing their ball cap in the sanctuary, even before church, and no other men step forward and tell them it is customary to remove head coverings in the sanctuary, and yet, someone can and will complain to the staff if I do. We have to allow coffee as we might offend those visiting and that might prevent them from being saved. I understand about meeting people at a point of need, and see shorts on people, but I say nothing.

I hope we talk constructively about this issue. As a percentage of people in the population, I am guessing we are less than 1% on any given day. That may be too high. I see baseball caps at all sorts of places, and who is to say that a place like Outback is not a 'better' dining experience. Wendys, I usually wear my cap when ordering, and take it off as I sit down. Outback, I'd probably wear it to the table and take it off. Ruth's Chris? Why treat it different than Outback? Just because of the prices? I mean, I don't see many people wear sports coats to Ruth's Chris much anymore (not that I eat there a whole bunch).

I guess the argument that society sets the normative values for what is or is not offensive makes sense but many times, what may pass as acceptable may be too low a bar for me, in that while I could wear my hat at a table, I may not do so because I don't feel right. Trying to figure out what my great grandfather would have done with a cell phone at dinner at Outback is an exercise in futility. Not many places to eat out, no chains to speak of, and certainly nothing like a cell phone. But would he have had a cell phone for convenience, or if in case of emergency?

So I think that many of us really are closer in agreement on what we think the norms should be and hold ourselves probably to a more strict code than would the general population. I would think that the general public thinks no distinction of baseball caps versus fedoras as far as when and where they should be worn, but somehow the fedora is more 'dandified' as a clothing accessory rather than an actual useful option, such as an umbrella. I just hate to see if anyone would take personal offense and hate to see threads 'devolve'.

I do not see many men doffing any cap for a woman and I don't think it normative for our society. I won't say it is an anachronism of our time, but I would not say it is far from it. I don't know that it is women's lib as much as it is a changing of the role and status of women in our society, and wanting to be seen as peers. When was the last time you saw a lady curtsy? I would think that unless you are dating a woman, holding a chair out for her can be miscontrued. I don't see many men offering their seat to women on the subway when we go to NYC, but the times I see it, I think it was nice for the man to have done it.

I am interested in JLee's observations as it seems to be somewhat in his academic educational or training or experience or closely appertaining to it. This thread reminds me of how many times I miss the mark and therefore, I don't need to be judging myself as a true gentleman by any standard, as I seem to be woefully short. I don't stand as often when women enter or leave the room, or if in a group that is eating, I don't wait until the last person is served before I dig in, and yet, I think I was given a pretty good set of manners and values, my grandmother always telling me that beauty is as beauty does.

 

[HudsonHawk]

My wife constantly tells me when she thinks that wearing a hat is wrong, and I tell her that I have come to this website to try to find out when it is right and wrong, and she tells me she cares not what is posted here - to her, it just seems inappropriate or wrong.

Out of curiosity, why does she think protecting your head from the elements is wrong?

 

[bowlerman]

I am in the waiting room for my kids' dentist, and my hat is on my lap. Perhaps I will fill it with ketchup. I wouldn't give a darn if someone were wearing one in here. Methinks most Dakotans would be clueless about etiquette anyway. There is a baseball cap on a guy's head, hold the mustard. Nobody pays any mind to what condiments adorn others' heads, much less cares. I'm pretty sure I'm thinking a lot harder about it than any other of the 25 people in this room= Extra relish for me.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

 

[alanfgag]

Out of curiosity, why does she think protecting your head from the elements is wrong?

My wife constantly tells me when she thinks that wearing a hat is wrong...

I think it is when rather than always.

 

[-30-]

The below may not sit well with some adherents to this thread:

"You are more than free to not respect my academic discipline if you so wish."
QUOTE: jlee562.
You know that I know, that I know what you know, whether the above is true or no, however,
"You are more than free "
QUOTE: jlee562.
Just how can, or is it may, one be "more than free"? Is this a Social Science, Politically Correct & Engineered Term
allowing me to be/do what? Should I be feeling "more better" than before being only "free". Please explain.

"But at least do me the courtesy of "
QUOTE:
jlee562.
"Courtesy" is such an old fashioned, "Fuddy Duddy" term within this Brave New "If it feels good to you, just do it" World,
I might, and I write the word "might" as to not wanting to commit myself, "feel", however not totally believe, that your
Social Science Study could be "behind the times" aka "Stale 20th Century Education". The Time is to now "Wise-up" and
not be left as abandoned within that Dry Gulch of History.

"Sounds good, looks good" is not what this social scientist is advocating."
QUOTE: jlee562.
I see that by your above quote, and you having not included the preceding, nor the trailing text of it, trouble might ensue.

"Moreover, Post is not in any way, shape, or form, a practicioner of social science."
QUOTE: jlee562.
Please take note of my use of quotation marks when using the term "Social Scientist" re: Emily Post, et al, in addition to the same
within my ending sentence, the two being alike in the dissemination of information, the former serving as a Practical Guide
as to how one deals with true social matters as opposed to PC BS.


Regards,
J T

 

[memphislawyer]

Hudson, wearing my hat while outdoors is nothing she says is wrong. She may say that in 70 degree whether, that since we are going from house, to garage, to church, walk outside for 3 minutes into church, and then reverse it, I don't need to wear it. I wear it and she does not mind. But if I were to wear it into say a building as we go into the elevator to meet with the CPA, she would tell me I need to remove the hat as we enter the building, and I tell her that I would remove it when we got into the CPA's office, as that is more a private domain than a public area, and we would even see movies from a 30's or 40's era vantage where the man would be seen coming into the door of an office and only doffing his hat as he arrived in, sure enough, to hang it on a hat rack.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Hudson, wearing my hat while outdoors is nothing she says is wrong. She may say that in 70 degree whether, that since we are going from house, to garage, to church, walk outside for 3 minutes into church, and then reverse it, I don't need to wear it.

Worst head sunburn I ever had was in 60-degree weather. But I understand her point. Your hat should be functional above all else.

 

[jlee562]

The below may not sit well with some adherents to this thread:

"You are more than free to not respect my academic discipline if you so wish."
QUOTE: jlee562.
You know that I know, that I know what you know, whether the above is true or no, however,
"You are more than free "
QUOTE: jlee562.
Just how can, or is it may, one be "more than free"? Is this a Social Science, Politically Correct & Engineered Term
allowing me to be/do what? Should I be feeling "more better" than before being only "free". Please explain.

"But at least do me the courtesy of "
QUOTE:
jlee562.
"Courtesy" is such an old fashioned, "Fuddy Duddy" term within this Brave New "If it feels good to you, just do it" World,
I might, and I write the word "might" as to not wanting to commit myself, "feel", however not totally believe, that your
Social Science Study could be "behind the times" aka "Stale 20th Century Education". The Time is to now "Wise-up" and
not be left as abandoned within that Dry Gulch of History.

"Sounds good, looks good" is not what this social scientist is advocating."
QUOTE: jlee562.
I see that by your above quote, and you having not included the preceding, nor the trailing text of it, trouble might ensue.

"Moreover, Post is not in any way, shape, or form, a practicioner of social science."
QUOTE: jlee562.
Please take note of my use of quotation marks when using the term "Social Scientist" re: Emily Post, et al, in addition to the same
within my ending sentence, the two being alike in the dissemination of information, the former serving as a Practical Guide
as to how one deals with true social matters as opposed to PC BS.


Regards,
J T

Grammatical and syntax errors not withstanding, you've completely failed to engage the topic at hand.

You actually don't know what I know, in spite of your insistence otherwise. Your continued assertions, for example, that we live in a "if it feels good to you, just do it" society belie your assertion that you know what I know, or that you've dealt with my position in an intellectually honest manner.

I've approached this discussion in a scholarly way. I back my assertions with examples, and have even cited academic literature. If you feel that your participation in this thread is better spent disregarding such opinions as "PC BS" instead of actually substantively engaging my contrary point of view, I can honestly say I have never been more glad to not adhere to so called "golden era" precepts of manners and courtesy.

 

[job]

I've got a headache......I better take off my hat.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I've got a headache......I better take off my hat.

Be careful. There's a self-proclaimed "social scientist" watching.

 

[fashion frank]

Got a Chuckle out of that !

I've got a headache......I better take off my hat.

I had to laugh over that remark ,I don't care who you are thats funny !:eusa_clap

All the Best ,Fashon Frank

 

[DamianM]

Be careful. There's a self-proclaimed "social scientist" watching.

LOL yes there is.
he loves pretty hats as well but doesn't believe in hat etiquette.

 

[Denton]

A further thought. For the most part, I agree with Jared that a rule that no one follows is not a rule. And if I am the only person who follows a rule, then the rule has little to do with etiquette; it's just my personal eccentricity. Etiquette depends on expectations that are shared by a lot of people.

But I don't think that shared expectations are the only things that count. Frank, Damian, and HudsonHawk make a valuable point insofar as simply making an effort counts for a lot. If I adhere to an outmoded set of rituals and formulas, the people I interact with might be confused by my behavior, but they might appreciate the fact that I'm trying to be nice. Just the fact that I'm trying goes a long way, can help to make people feel respected, and may have the effect that politeness is supposed to have.

A lot also depends on personal style. Over-correct, super-formal behavior can make people feel uncomfortable. Especially if I go out of my way to impose my pattern of behavior on other people. Correcting other people's behavior is usually bad form.

It might also be worth remembering that one of the uses of codes of civility in the past was to make distinctions between classes. "Gentleman" is a default position on the Fedora Lounge, but gentility used to be an honorific that depended on family, social position, etc.

 

[gamez32]

It amuses me that folks can be so concerned about hat etiquette/manners and be so disrespectful and rude to someone just trying to have a discussion. And they still haven't answered why some of these things are inherently rude.

Jlee-I hope I catch you around the Bay sometime. I'll be the guy wearing his hat indoors treating the people around him with respect.

 

[jlee562]

Be careful. There's a self-proclaimed "social scientist" watching.

Another sterling example of respect and etiquette from the "golden era."

 

[DamianM]

^^A sterling example of what you don't do on the internet. You'll get snubbed.

Its a thread on the internet. The last thing you do is start talking like its an intro to philosophy course.

If you where your hat indoors ( where it is inappropriate) you don't practice hat etiquette, period. Regardless of the new social un-rules. That's what this thread is about. Not about society degrading and losing respect towards others and itself.