Do any of you guys follow any type of hat etiquette?

[Banky]

What Jlee has said is the thread is exactly what I was trying to convey though said much more eloquently than I put it. You can think it rude all you like but if society as a whole does not support your position, you're incorrect.

 

[jlee562]

I already explained myself but here we go again.
If you where to present proper hat etiquette, the on lookers will notice it, even though they didn't find it rude to begin with due to the lack of knowledge ( like I explain before, some grown men don't even know how to tie a necktie). They will sense of respect from you for taking the hat off indoors, dining, etc.

But if you want to follow with the examples of our current society with its great track record, keep following.

Like I said, I don't really think you understand what I'm saying. Your response doesn't answer the questions I'm asking.

What you are describing above is the social construction of etiquette, which is what I described. In my specific field, the seminal piece on "norm lifecycles" is written by Finnemore and Sikkink. What you write above, about displaying hat etiquette, Finnemore and Sikkink would label a "norm entrepreneur." This person introduces a new idea, which may or may not be accepted by society at large. In this example, it is the hypothetical reintroduction of hat etiquette. If the new idea gains traction, it "cascades" into a norm.

Their theory is exactly what you wrote above (well, their work applies specifically to international relations, but the general concept applies here as well). So really, you instinctively recognize that etiquette is a social construction. Where we differ is the application of meaning to action.

As I said in my initial post, actions are just actions, they have only the meaning which we ascribe to them. Not taking off your hat to greet a woman is merely the act of not taking your hat off to greet a woman. Whether or not this action is considered rude, is predicated not on what the individual thinks, but what society at large thinks. None of my female friends have ever castigated me for not removing my hat when I greet them. On the contrary, they usually compliment my choice of headwear. So if they don't consider my lack of a doff rude in any way, how am I being rude? An action which causes no offense cannot be said to be offensive.

So, if the majority don't find something offensive, the etiquette is no longer in force. The rule is broken and no longer a rule. The meaning ascribed to the action has changed. That doesn't mean you can't personally object, but it does mean is that you can't expect society at large to agree that the same action carries the same meaning.

 

[Brian Niebuhr]

If a bear farts in the woods...?

 

[suitedcboy]

I would argue that without any notion beforehand, that taking a hat off is not an action considered respectful by the person you greet.
It might be nothing more than act deemed unexplained or even odd and gets an expression change for only that reason. If your hat fits so poor as to obscure your face to the point of making you disguised that is different. The person might think your hat does not fit well and you removed it for that reason like they did with the last new pair of shoes they wore that were stiff and uncomfortable.

In some countries sitting and positioning your feet so the soles of your shoes faces someone is considered rude. Someone would have to tell you that it is rude. Nothing about that act is disrespectful until you are trained that it is disrespectful. It may have religious scripture basis that might give an indication it is not to be done, I do not know that. I am no religious studies scholar.

I certainly think wearing a hat so that it blocks someone's view of something that would be expected to be viewed is rude.

 

[-30-]

The "Social Scientists" of yore, eg: Emily Post, et al, gave advice regarding etiquette as to the way things "worked within a society".

These Rules allowed people to act in an equal manner of courtesy with one another in a simple, understandable fashion whether at

table, the theatre, a party, whilst wearing a hat, etc; respect for others as well as self, probably being of prime import. Whereas

the number of these people were few, they had many adherents in not only the form of parents (parental guidance)

but also within the teaching profession, as well as tradesmen, all being able to educate even as to

that of the quality of "good taste".

The many degreed "Social Scientists" of today? Sounds good, looks good, and as meaningless as the "Society" we have inherited.


Regards,
J T

 

[Zombie_61]

No one has argued that the current practices aren't now the norm. We're arguing that they're still rude, even if everyone does it.

It is rude to break hat etiquette even if you don't know about hat etiquette. Ignorance is not an excuse...

These statements beg the question: In a given situation, if no one present perceives your actions or inactions as rude or ill-mannered, are they still rude or ill-mannered?

In my experience etiquette and manners only exist if they are recognized and acknowledged by another person (or persons); otherwise, they are nothing more than meaningless gestures. To be clear, I am not saying anyone should dispense with such etiquette if they feel it is proper to follow it's guidelines; merely that one should not react negatively if others do not acknowledge his/her adherence to such.

That said, I do follow some rules of hat etiquette regardless of whether or not they are recognized by others:

• I remove my hat when dining, unless I'm seated at a lunch counter (which, admittedly, is rare these days).
• I remove my hat in a movie theater if it's blocking the view of anyone seated behind me. If no one is seated behind me, I see no need.
• I wear my hat in the waiting area of a doctor's or dentist's office, but remove it when called to the exam/treatment room.
• I remove my hat when entering someone's house, unless I know they are comfortable with me wearing it during my visit.
• I would wear a hat in a hospital or office building (including elevators), but would remove it when entering a patient's room or private office.
• I would remove my hat in any situation if I felt it was warranted (granted, this is rather arbitrary, but I cannot define it further except to say I "follow my instincts").

By the way, I prefer my chili without beans, but would not refuse a tasty meal simply because it contained them. However, I am adamantly against the use of ketchup on my hot dogs; others are free to use it as they wish.

 

[job]

Ketchup on hot dogs is just wrong.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Ketchup on hot dogs is just wrong.

FINALLY...resolution!

 

[hatophile]

Umm, I like ketchup on hot dogs[huh].

It seems etiquette changes frequently and drastically as the times change. When I was young it was considered very rude to carry on a phone conversation when you had family or friends visiting. With today's technology, folks are conversing constantly in stores, restaurants, and even doctor's offices.

While I try to adhere to most of the hat etiquette because I feel it's appropriate, it's probably irrelevant because most folks don't care or are not aware of the old rules for hat etiquette.

 

[gtdean48]

This is like discussing beans in chili.

If it has beans in it, then it is not chili....

 

[Dan Allen]

Love this thread, don't have a clue where its going next

 

[-30-]

Forget the ketchup/catsup business; try Heinz Chile Sauce.
(Similar to the above, but "more better"!)

Regards,
J T

 

[Worf]

No, it's not. Harry Callahan said so. There is SOME leeway on where hats can and cannot be worn, but Ketchup on a hot dog is ALWAYS wrong!!!!! The Inspector has spoken.



I was at Mike Moore's Buckaroo Hatters on Saturday the 13th of July, and being inside I kept taking my hat off. Silly in a way because Mike and Rocky wore there's all day because they're trying to SELL HATS IN A HAT STORE. I bet I took mine on and off 20x.

Later

That sir is Funny! Taking off your hat in a hat store... Mwa ha ha! But I'd probably have done it once or twice myself before gettin' wise.

Worf

 

[fashion frank]

The rules have not died, they are just ignored because "no one cares anymore".

WOW !! This thread really took off

"No one cares anymore " Oh how true !

Not only do they not care, they are aware, but they choose not to care
( our generation ).

The younger ones don't even know or have a clue about social graces and good manners because they haven't been taught any by their parents.

It reminds me of our church service at my church.

I go to a Latin Mass in a beautiful cathedral church very close to my home .
Now anyone who did not grow up in the late 1950's into the early 1960's won't
remember how beautiful the Latin Mass is and used to be when it is sung because Vatican # 2( church revisions on things to do with Mass ) did away with the Latin Mass as a must do.

So now when someone comes to the cathedral and hears and witness that
service they remark " oh my how beautiful that was " or "I never knew Mass
could be so wonderful" !

Point here is that things over time get degraded because we acquiese to the
quote ,unquote "norm" according to the great unwashed masses and then that is what becomes the new "norm" BUT it still doesn't make it right.

At the dinner table at my house nobody just get's up and leaves the table just
because they are done eating which would be logical right, ( why sit there if the
function of eating is done )instead if anyone else is still eating, its
GOOD MANNERS to first ask if they could be excused from the table as a sign of
politeness to the person who is still eating and not to leave them sitting there
eating by themselves.

I just don't understand why it's so difficult to just use good old plain common
sense and also good manners.

All the Best ,Fashion Frank

 

[Missouri Mason]

Because hat racks/hooks are absent from most restaurants, I leave my hat on unless there is a safe place to put it. i.e. an extra chair or (clean)
ledge right by the table. I'm not going to risk a nice hat by placing it on the floor or table. Only one restaurant that my wife and I frequent has a hat rack.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Umm, I like ketchup on hot dogs[huh].

It seems etiquette changes frequently and drastically as the times change. When I was young it was considered very rude to carry on a phone conversation when you had family or friends visiting. With today's technology, folks are conversing constantly in stores, restaurants, and even doctor's offices.

And it's still considered very rude.

 

[hatophile]

And it's still considered very rude.

Seems that way to me, but it certainly doesn't stop people from doing it. My wife and I went out for breakfast 2 weeks ago. The restaurant had TVs on and music blaring which was bad enough. I looked over at the table behind my wife and a middle-age couple were ignoring each other and playing with their Ipads and cell phones. I guess I almost expect it from kids, but not folks my age.

 

[Historyteach24]

I wear my hat inside but take it off when sitting for a meal.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Seems that way to me, but it certainly doesn't stop people from doing it. My wife and I went out for breakfast 2 weeks ago. The restaurant had TVs on and music blaring which was bad enough. I looked over at the table behind my wife and a middle-age couple were ignoring each other and playing with their Ipads and cell phones. I guess I almost expect it from kids, but not folks my age.

Which has been my point all along. Just because people refuse to show consideration for others doesn't dissolve the concept.

And TVs in restaurants is just exhibit 1,634 of how the world has gone to hell in a handbasket.

 

[jlee562]

The "Social Scientists" of yore, eg: Emily Post, et al, gave advice regarding etiquette as to the way things "worked within a society".

These Rules allowed people to act in an equal manner of courtesy with one another in a simple, understandable fashion whether at

table, the theatre, a party, whilst wearing a hat, etc; respect for others as well as self, probably being of prime import. Whereas

the number of these people were few, they had many adherents in not only the form of parents (parental guidance)

but also within the teaching profession, as well as tradesmen, all being able to educate even as to

that of the quality of "good taste".

The many degreed "Social Scientists" of today? Sounds good, looks good, and as meaningless as the "Society" we have inherited.


Regards,
J T

You are more than free to not respect my academic discipline if you so wish. But at least do me the courtesy of at least attempting to understand what I'm saying before you dismiss it. "Sounds good, looks good" is not what this social scientist is advocating.

Moreover, Post is not in any way, shape, or form, a practicioner of social science.