Do any of you guys follow any type of hat etiquette?

[Worf]

I'm new to this game.... but I grew up in a time and place where all my male relatives, but not my dad strangely enough, still wore hats. I guess I got their "rules" by osmosis.

1. Take off hat during anthem.
2. Take off hat in someone's home.
3. NEVER lay a hat on someone's bed... supposed to be bad ju ju.
4. Never wear a hat in a restuaunt when eating.
5. Do wear it if dancin' on the ball-room floor if you're jitterbuggin' or otherwise losing it on the hardwood!

Welp... that's my take on it.

 

[DamianM]

Let's flip the script then.

Since I am arguing that rules and norms are socially constructed and inherently arbitrary, how do you propose that there is a universally objective definition of slob?

You are denouncing the general rules of hat etiquette. By doing so you are praising we give in to what the uneducated norm of today is.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Ok, well, this is not a cogent response as to why one piece of etiquette is an apple and another is a chainsaw.

I can't understand it for you.

 

[jlee562]

You are denouncing the general rules of hat etiquette. By doing so you are praising we give in to what the uneducated norm of today is.

No, you misunderstand. I am not passing judgment on hat etiquette. I am merely stating that, in the context of America in 2013, it is not generally considered rude to break from hat etiquette.

I am not advocating that you "give in" to anything. In fact, if you see past FL threads on hat etiquette, you would read that I advocate for people to wear their hats however they see fit.

Now, would you like to try answering the question?

 

[HudsonHawk]

Look, I'm not saying that you have to like that there is no hat etiquette anymore. I'm not saying that you should change what you do with your hat to conform with the new norm. All I'm saying is that etiquette is constantly evolving, and will continue to evolve in the future.

But the fact that there is a new norm demonstrates that the old norms do not apply.

And I'm saying that this "new norm" is not based on courtesy and respect. And that's a shame.

 

[jlee562]

I can't understand it for you.

Because it's not a cogent argument.

And I'm saying that this "new norm" is not based on courtesy and respect. And that's a shame.

No, it's not based on your conceptions of courtesy and respect. Nobody goes around wearing a hat indoors thinking "yeah, that'll stick it to the man!" They go around wearing hats indoors because nobody else cares whether or not they take it off and they don't see it as rude if one doesn't.

 

[HudsonHawk]

No, you misunderstand. I am not passing judgment on hat etiquette. I am merely stating that, in the context of America in 2013, it is not generally considered rude to break from hat etiquette.

I am not advocating that you "give in" to anything. In fact, if you see past FL threads on hat etiquette, you would read that I advocate for people to wear their hats however they see fit.

Now, would you like to try answering the question?

No one has argued that the current practices aren't now the norm. We're arguing that they're still rude, even if everyone does it.

 

[jlee562]

No one has argued that the current practices aren't now the norm. We're arguing that they're still rude, even if everyone does it.

You are free to find it rude if you like. Society thinks differently, which is precisely why it is the new norm.

 

[DamianM]

It is rude to break hat etiquette even if you don't know about hat etiquette.
Ignorance is not an excuse.

And that is what a slob is. One who fails to understand the basic principles of dressing. The functions and etiquette of wearing a specific garment.
Show up to a black tie ball with a lounge suit and you would see that the rule applies. Even if you don't know how to dress in Black tie attire the rule will apply.

 

[HudsonHawk]

You are free to find it rude if you like. Society thinks differently, which is precisely why it is the new norm.

It's the new norm due to selfishiness and apathy, not because society had a sudden change of of collective thinking about how it interacts. People are still offended, they just accept it.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Because it's not a cogent argument.

Very well then.

No, it's not based on your conceptions of courtesy and respect. Nobody goes around wearing a hat indoors thinking "yeah, that'll stick it to the man!" They go around wearing hats indoors because nobody else cares whether or not they take it off and they don't see it as rude if one doesn't.

No, they go around that way because they either don't know it's rude or don't care how they may offend others.

 

[DJH]

3. NEVER lay a hat on someone's bed... supposed to be bad ju ju.

and depending on the party, your nice hat might be totally destroyed! I'll have to remember that rule

 

[Dick Ireland]

True, true

You can not be ashamed of following any form of etiquette.

in a society wear every etiquette is lost there must be an example set.

Hear, hear.

 

[DamianM]

You are free to find it rude if you like. Society thinks differently, which is precisely why it is the new norm.

Society yearns for more people with proper etiquette.

 

[jlee562]

Very well then.


No, they go around that way because they either don't know it's rude or don't care how they may offend others.

Let's break this statement down.

Please explain why it is rude.

My position is that all rules of etiquette are inherently arbitrary and subject to change over time.

As I understand your argument, you are saying that the act itself is inherently rude. What is your justification for this beyond simply because that's what hat etiquette says?

 

[DJH]

Who wrote all these rules, anyway? Moses? Thomas Jefferson? Al Gore? Joseph Smith? John Cavanagh? Matt Deckard? Are they on Wikipedia? Are there penalties for non-compliance?

Do they only apply to people born in the US (which would make me exempt) or are they some kind of International Law sanctioned by the UN?

C'mon guys, we need to know!

 

[jlee562]

It is rude to break hat etiquette even if you don't know about hat etiquette.
Ignorance is not an excuse.

And that is what a slob is. One who fails to understand the basic principles of dressing. The functions and etiquette of wearing a specific garment.
Show up to a black tie ball with a lounge suit and you would see that the rule applies. Even if you don't know how to dress in Black tie attire the rule will apply.

Rude to whom? As I said, if a majority no longer accepts it as rude, then it is not rude.

As far as slob, again, you are relying on arbitrary rules that have no objective value. Who decides what is proper?

 

[DamianM]

Who wrote all these rules, anyway? Moses? Thomas Jefferson? Al Gore? Joseph Smith? John Cavanagh? Matt Deckard? Are they on Wikipedia? Are there penalties for non-compliance?

Do they only apply to people born in the US (which would make me exempt) or are they some kind of International Law sanctioned by the UN?

C'mon guys, we need to know!

Who wrote the rules on proper table manners?

They are set to be polite and respectful.

 

[Genuine Classic Gangster]

There is no need to wear a hat when you're sitting at a table with your head covered. It's disrespectful, not to mention potentially unsanitary.

I disagree with those statements.

Plenty of good reasons could exist to wear one's hat at a table.

For instance, no place might exist to put the hat that will be safe for it. At most lunch counters I go to, residue of food from previous customers is all over the tables.

When food residue is not present, the table is instead covered with cleaning agents from when the staff wiped down the tables.

Even when the aforementioned issues are not in play, the table will be rife with all kinds of bacteria that would infest my hat were I to place it upon such a cesspool.

To subject a good hat to any such abuses would, in my opinion, be unfathomable.

Putting one's hat on a chair is hardly better. The food residue might not be as prevalent on the chairs, but then the hat is instead laid upon bacteria which has emanated from the buttocks' of countless previous customers.

In my opinion, for reasons such as those aforementioned, if an establishment does not provide suitable hat storage space, then no one at that establishment should have any cause to be offended if a hat owner wears his hat. For such an establishment to expect a hat owner to put a $400-1000+ new hat (the typical price of quality these days) and/or irreplaceable vintage hat in harm's way in order to pander to their inability to accommodate it is egregiously disrespectful to the hat owner, and therefore an unreasonable expectation.

But thankfully, in my experience, most eating establishments do not care at all if I (or others) wear my (or our) hat(s) while eating (granted, I do not ever eat at what would be considered high-end restaurants). Although HudsonHawk says that wearing a hat at a table is disrespectful, I argue that it is not, because if no one is actually feeling disrespected - as indeed they don't when I and others wear hats while eating at tables - then disrespect does not actually exist in those moments.

As for the idea of taking off one's hat whenever one is indoors: I never take off my hat indoors, unless it is, as others have termed it in this thread, an "intimate space." I do take off my hat in intimate spaces, and agree that not to do so would be disrespectful and undesirable.

However, to take off my hat every time I am inside any building would be ridiculous. That would effectively render me physically disabled, making me virtually one-handed for considerable portions of many/most of my days. That would prevent me from performing normal and necessary functions for which I need the free use of both of my hands, such as shopping for clothing or groceries. But again, literally no one has ever cared if I wore my hat while shopping indoors, and by now, I must have done that thousands of times.

I've had the same experience in elevators (in my opinion, elevators are public spaces, not intimate spaces). For me to take off my hat or to leave it on is not something that any woman in any elevator cares about in the least bit. If I were to take off my hat, she wouldn't even know I was doing it for her sake - that thought would never even enter her mind. Chances are she wouldn't even notice me taking my hat off, but if she did and if she bothered to spare a thought about it (she probably wouldn't, really), she'd think I took off my hat because my head was hot, or something like that.

Having said all that, I probably would take off my hats indoors a lot (in cases when I could hold it rather than set it upon a cesspool that might damage it), if a few people actually cared whether I do or not.

My view and practice on hat etiquette is that since no one cares if I wear my hat indoors (intimate spaces excepted, of course), nothing is wrong with doing so, and to take it off and thus handicap myself would be pointless.

 

[DamianM]

Rude to whom? As I said, if a majority no longer accepts it as rude, then it is not rude.

As far as slob, again, you are relying on arbitrary rules that have no objective value. Who decides what is proper?

If I ever am around you I would fart, spit, and chew my food loudly. I wont offend you because I wouldn't have followed unwritten arbitrary rules.

And you will see that people will treat you differently if you do follow etiquette. They will see the respect you give them and they will respect you further.