Christmas without Christ? Huh?

[Bingles]

I am a practicing Catholic and as such naturally see Christmas as a religious holiday. That being said though, I don't have a problem with the secular aspect either. Many of our customs and traditions were converted (Christianized) from earlier winter celebrations to celebrate the Liturgical birth of Christ.

The only thing that does make me mad this time of year is people who use the Christmas season to attack or belittle people who celebrate the religious aspect of the holiday. Intolerance and prejudice applies to both believers and non-believers. A mutual respect would be nice for a change.

I personally don't use the term "Happy Holidays". I prefer to greet a person with a traditional greeting customary to the holiday THEY celebrate, and expect the same in return. "Happy Holidays" always begs the question (in my mind) "well which one are you celebrating"?

 

[Red Diabla]

The only thing that does make me mad this time of year is people who use the Christmas season to attack or belittle people who celebrate the religious aspect of the holiday. Intolerance and prejudice applies to both believers and non-believers. A mutual respect would be nice for a change.

I personally don't use the term "Happy Holidays". I prefer to greet a person with a traditional greeting customary to the holiday THEY celebrate, and expect the same in return. "Happy Holidays" always begs the question (in my mind) "well which one are you celebrating"?

Well, I spend Hanukkah with my inlaws, Christmas with my parents, and Solstice with friends. I'm a holiday opportunist because the food is delicious and it's fun to meet up with everyone at this time of year. "Happy Holidays" to me is more inclusive. And I've had people who will vindictively say "MERRY CHRISTMAS!" which defeats the purpose of that particular holiday, does it not? So "Happy Holidays" it is!

RD

 

[Mr. Hallack]

Growing up in a religious household (Mormon) I still associated Christmas as mainly non-religious holiday, with Santa, Frosty, etc when I was a kid. I had asked my elders "how do you know this was Jesus' date of birth?" without getting a straight answer. Thus my path to damnation!!

 

[rue]

I just don't want to see another bumper sticker that says " remember the reason for the season" If I want to tell my kids there's a Santa AND celebrate the birth of Jesus, well that's my prerogative and I don't need your bumper sticker to remind me.... thanks.

 

[ButteMT61]

Zealots on either side suck. As with most things.

 

[St.Ignatz]

The only gift at Christmas that should matter to a christian is the birth of "The Lamb of God", "Prince of Peace", "King of Kings" you know "The Word Made Flesh" . As far as " Happy Holiday" goes pick one or all, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Chanukah, Kwanzaa or New Years. Come to think of it the decorations go on sale the day after Halloween so we can add that to the list. My two cents on the subject.
Tom D.

 

[ButteMT61]

I mean behavior towards others and how/what they celebrate.
It gets political, and ergo, dopey. I love Christmas. I'm not religious however. More spiritual. But I respect those that have beliefs -as long as they don't get preachy.

 

[St.Ignatz]

I mean behavior towards others and how/what they celebrate.
It gets political, and ergo, dopey. I love Christmas. I'm not religious however. More spiritual. But I respect those that have beliefs -as long as they don't get preachy.

Amen brother!
Tom D.

 

[Mojito]

When we were posted in Vienna during my childhood, Jewish journalist and author Alan Levy and his family would share Christmas and Easter meals with us, while we shared Jewish celebrations with them. One of our cherished family possessions is a beautifully hand-carved nativity he gave us. In later years, living in Singapore, we visited the family of a Hindu colleague of my father's for Deepavali, while they joined us for Christmas parties. I was taught to try and respect others and their festivals, feasts and religious commemorations, and for me, part of that is not assuming that others celebrate Christmas. If I know they do, then I will give them a "Merry Christmas!" and feel comfortable with, for example, sending them cards with a religious motif. But if I don't know, I try not to assume. On the other hand, if someone *does* wish me either "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays", I'll just be happy that they choose to say something kind and warm - unless, of course, there is a pointed motivation/agenda behind it. Overwhelmingly there isn't - it's someone trying to be nice.

I don't celebrate Christmas for religious reasons, but my parents do. This is the one time of the year when family and friends all gather together - I've returned from the other side of the world on one or two occasions to be with those I love. For a couple of people in our circle, estranged from their own families, this is a chance to be with ours. We invite visitors from overseas who can't be with their own loved ones. Some are devoutly Christian, and attend services of their own Christian denomination. Others are more secular focused. Those who are non-religious or of another faith have never objected to the display of nativity scenes or the fact that some family and visitors will be attending Midnight Mass. We love and accomodate each other, and our beliefs or lack thereof. Those who simply enjoy, in echoes of many cultures throughout the centuries, the idea of being together in the dark of winter (or the height of summer for us!) and of celebrating love and laughter and good food and good company are as welcome as those who regard it as sacred to the birth of their saviour. I was taught, though, that Easter was more sacred for Catholics than Christmas was - although Christmas was celebrated as a feast day the most sacred event in the calender was the commoration of the death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[kamikat]

I'm not offended by it either - except that I think it is mostly intended (in cali?) to give notice that "I don't believe so don't push this on me" crowd. Like people that proclaim "I don't watch TV". Bah humbug. :eeek:

I've never felt that way. I started working in retail 25 years ago and I was always told to say "Happy Holidays" simply because it was in an area that had just as many Jewish customers as Christians.

 

[davidraphael]

I grew up in a non-religious household, but I love Christmas - or did when I was a kid, at least - and I still find it a special time for family and friends.

I've heard people say recently 'let's put the Christ back into Christmas' but, actually, the festival doesn't really have Christian origins - even the date of 25th December isn't correct (no one really has any idea was Jesus was supposedly born). It was 'borrowed' from pagan cults. The early church superimposed it on existing celebrations religious observations (such as from the cult of Mithras). It's also around Christmas time that the 'birth of the sun god' was celebrated.
Several other obvious borrowings include the Christmas tree, evergreen wreaths and the 12 days of Christmas, all of which come from pre-Christian Norse beliefs. Indeed, the Norse god 'Jul' is the 'yule' of yuletide.
Then there's father Christmas - or rather St Nikolaus - who syncretised with the Alpine concept of demonic gift-giving Krampus and Claus. I think Christmas carols are also either pre-christian scandinavian or east european.

So, historically, in many ways, 'Christmas' is ultimately a multi-denominational hodge-podge...

Here are traditional 'Klause' (Santa 'Claus') in the Bavarian Alps visiting in December (about as non-christian as it gets!)

I love going out when these guys are on the rampage - it's kinda fun - u have to avoid them or they will birch-whip your legs!

 

[davidraphael]

Well said. The "traditional Christmas celebration" in America owes, and has always owed, far, far more to Charles Dickens than it does to Jesus Christ.

Indeed it does, Washington Irving too. It's all quite a recent phenomena. And America didn't even properly start celebrating until the mid-1800s.
The founding fathers actually banned Christmas, even charged a fine if anything Christmassy was uttered. Congress worked on Christmas day.

 

[vitanola]

BUT THERE IS A "WAR ON CHRISTMAS" GOING ON THESE DAYS! Don't you understand?

The Secular Humanists are trying to destroy the holiday, just as they are plotting to enchain us all in Marxist bondage.

Don't let historic facts get in the way of a great source of misplaced moral indignation, OM, for moral indignation serves as a
very useful disrtraction.

 

[LocktownDog]

Indeed, the Norse god 'Jul' is the 'yule' of yuletide.

One quick correction: Jul wasn't a norse deity, but a representation of a wheel. Along the same lines as tribal solstice observations, yule just shows that we're halfway through winter and the sun is coming back around. Although the idea of Santa Claus and his reindeer traveling the skies comes from the norse/germanic god Odin/Woden flying on his 8-legged steed Sleipnir on the solstice with the rest of his Wild Hunt.

 

[davidraphael]

One quick correction: Jul wasn't a norse deity, but a representation of a wheel. Along the same lines as tribal solstice observations, yule just shows that we're halfway through winter and the sun is coming back around. Although the idea of Santa Claus and his reindeer traveling the skies comes from the norse/germanic god Odin/Woden flying on his 8-legged steed Sleipnir on the solstice with the rest of his Wild Hunt.

Sorry, yes, I was a little misleading; One of the names for Norse gods was 'Yule-beings'.
I think the Santa figure is a conflation of numerous traditions. Such figures usually are a result of syncretism.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Zealots on either side suck. As with most things.

:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I was taught, though, that Easter was more sacred for Catholics than Christmas was - although Christmas was celebrated as a feast day the most sacred event in the calender was the commoration of the death and resurrection of Christ.

Correct. And in "Catholic" countries, Easter is still treated as a bigger deal than Christmas is. Of course, Easter doesn't involve massive gift-giving, so it isn't all that lucrative.

 

[dhermann1]

And Easter, of course, being a version of the name of the Mother Goddess, Ishtar or Astarte. The bunnies and eggs and all being pretty flagrant indications of the traditional spring orgies that accompanied early spring equinox celebrations.

 

[dhermann1]

And here's where it really gets confusing . . . but interesting:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina21224.htm

http://hinduworld.tripod.com/history/mithra.html

 

[HepKitty]

Well, I spend Hanukkah with my inlaws, Christmas with my parents, and Solstice with friends. I'm a holiday opportunist because the food is delicious and it's fun to meet up with everyone at this time of year. "Happy Holidays" to me is more inclusive. And I've had people who will vindictively say "MERRY CHRISTMAS!" which defeats the purpose of that particular holiday, does it not? So "Happy Holidays" it is!

RD

we silly unevolved human beings have holidays because it's fun to celebrate stuff. so why not? RD you also show that you're open-minded and accepting of other belief systems, which is a good thing. sure celebrations are fun, but you show that you're not all about yourself at the same time. I remember saying this last year when someone brought up the supposed war on xmas (yeah I'm lazy and I type xmas), but you can't possibly know what religion some people are by looking at them (my sister doesn't look Buddhist, my atheist friends don't broadcast either, a Muslim friend will not wear any sort of veil to save her life, and Mormons are required to keep garments hidden) but if you want to wish them well, HH is a nice, non-assuming thing to say while still acknowledging that there are holidays going on. of course "have a nice day" should still work too, no matter what time of year it is.

thanks for the history check, to all who posted the origins of the common celebrations. I've met tons of people who don't know how or why "religious" holidays have such unrelated traditions.

RD you're right that some people will very aggressively return with "MERRY XMAS" and I must say that I regret saying anything at all to people like that. why waste my time and energy wishing rude people well in the first place? I just don't get why some people take HH as a personal attack. holidays aren't about any one person. except for maybe birthdays, but then you really should remember that others will have the same bday as you.

a thought to ponder: how does drawing lines and flaming people on days that are supposed to be happy really make your holidays better? so someone says for example happy easter but you're celebrating ostara, do you really want to wreck your own day by screaming at someone who really just tried to wish you a nice day? little things like this will only upset you if you let them

Mr Hallack that's a good question. I've heard (from a Mormon) that Jesus was actually born in the spring, which is lambing season. Explains why the shepherds were watching their flocks by night. A Mormon friend when I was a kid gave the date of 6 April. Anyone else heard any theories?

Rue you could always tell people w/ that bumper sticker that Attis, Mithra, and Horus all had the birthday of 25 Dec and that 3 wise men bringing gifts came from the East in all 3 cases. if I remember correctly, at least 2 were resurrected as well. I suppose you could ask them which is their favorite of the 3 lol

Mojito that's awesome that you got to celebrate Eastern holidays, and that you included your friends on your holidays. that's the point of celebrating right? to include others and have a good time?